GM JI Han Jae

[Daniel Sullivan]

It seems that even though Ji is claiming to be the founder of Hapkido, he is currently only concerned with ranking in Sin Moo, and there are other entities that rank outside of Sin Moo, apparently.

Does he actually claim to be the founder of hapkido or just Sin Moo Hapkido? I have heard people argue that they 'feel that he is the founder of hapkido' as we know it today, but that is different from GM Ji claiming to have founded the art himself.

Maybe he did make the claim, which is why I'm asking, though I have never heard that he did so.

 

[iron_ox]

Does he actually claim to be the founder of hapkido or just Sin Moo Hapkido? I have heard people argue that they 'feel that he is the founder of hapkido' as we know it today, but that is different from GM Ji claiming to have founded the art himself.

Maybe he did make the claim, which is why I'm asking, though I have never heard that he did so.

How's this, from Taekwondo Times, a few quotes from the article he did with Chris Garland: January, 2003 Issue

Q: Why did you merge your organization with the Korean Hapkido Association and the Korea Hapkido Association?

Ji: Everything Hapkido originated from me.

Q: What was the purpose of this merger?

Ji: To unify everything; to make one (Hapkido). There are too many organizations. I want to unify everything and anyone that will follow because I made Hapkido.

Q: Was there any movement in Korea to keep Hapkidoists from creating their own style?

Ji: No, everything is from my style.

Does that answer your query?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sure.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That would be Massan Ghorbani, who according to another published report was granted his 8th dan in 1998 - just two years later.

Thank you. I see that he is now a 9th Dan under GM Ji;

http://www.sinmoohapkido.eu/en/organization/technical_committee/massan/

http://massanghorbanimasterstemple.com/about.php

According to his profile page, though he had prior experience in the arts, nothing relating to Hapkido or similar training. Again, just to satisfy Daniel (wink), I'm not pointing a finger and saying he (or anyone) has done something wrong. But in connection with GM Ji, it appears that the road to 9th Dan in SM HKD isn't nearly as long as what one would expect given TIG/TIA of other arts. I'm curious as to how wide-spead this accelearated rate is within the SM HKD community or if it is only certain people. And if it is only certain individuals, what was/is the determining factor on this fast-track? Certainly I've not seen this in other branches of Hapkido. It would be nice if other SM HKD teachers/practitioner would chime in with their perspective on this.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thank you. I see that he is now a 9th Dan under GM Ji;

http://www.sinmoohapkido.eu/en/organization/technical_committee/massan/

http://massanghorbanimasterstemple.com/about.php

According to his profile page, though he had prior experience in the arts, nothing relating to Hapkido or similar training. Again, just to satisfy Daniel (wink), I'm not pointing a finger and saying he (or anyone) has done something wrong.

Don't worry about satisfying me; if you have criticism of GM Ji, feel free to voice it. I had said that I thought questioning his rank at this stage is pointless, but I'm certainly not offended.

For the record, raising red flags isn't necessarily bad; it means that there is something that stands out which may or may not be problematic. I consider one year to black belt in a US TKD school to be a red flag. A red flag, not because it is inherently wrong or bad, but because in the US, it is not normative. Apparently it is normative in Korea. The red flag would mean that I would want to look at why the school owner is promoting at that pace and would want to see what the school's first dan students look like. If they look like advanced beginners and the school owner is portraying them as such, then I would consider the matter closed. If he's touting them as instructor level masters, then I'm walking out.

And I'm still waiting for someone to address my question as to whether or not the current time in grade norms were established at that time.

But in connection with GM Ji, it appears that the road to 9th Dan in SM HKD isn't nearly as long as what one would expect given TIG/TIA of other arts. I'm curious as to how wide-spead this accelearated rate is within the SM HKD community or if it is only certain people. And if it is only certain individuals, what was/is the determining factor on this fast-track? Certainly I've not seen this in other branches of Hapkido.

Probably they were key people in his organization whom he wished to invest a level of responsibility that required the authority that comes with rank.

It would be nice if other SM HKD teachers/practitioner would chime in with their perspective on this.

Agreed.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Probably they were key people in his organization whom he wished to invest a level of responsibility that required the authority that comes with rank.

I understand what you're saying here, but it brings up the question of favoritism or cronyism. Not leveling that charge, but bringing it up for consideration. Investing a level of responsibility doesn't equate necessarily to skill level. Additionally, it doesn't seem quite fair to someone training, that is perhaps better, but not in a position to 'assist' the organization (read: financially) that doesn't rise as quickly. Again, not leveling that charge, but bringing it up for consideration. We're talking about a total of 8 years to go from white to 8th Dan. I don't know when 9th Dan came in, but 8 years for 8th Dan is...well...I guess that is a pretty big red flag if we're honestly looking at things.

 

[puunui]

Probably they were key people in his organization whom he wished to invest a level of responsibility that required the authority that comes with rank.

By the way, iron ox's instructor started hapkido in 1965 and in 1983 was promoted to 9th Dan, which is 18 years. GM Ji was 8th Dan after 18 years. Just in case you wish to compare.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I understand what you're saying here, but it brings up the question of favoritism or cronyism. Not leveling that charge, but bringing it up for consideration. Investing a level of responsibility doesn't equate necessarily to skill level. Additionally, it doesn't seem quite fair to someone training, that is perhaps better, but not in a position to 'assist' the organization (read: financially) that doesn't rise as quickly. Again, not leveling that charge, but bringing it up for consideration. We're talking about a total of 8 years to go from white to 8th Dan. I don't know when 9th Dan came in, but 8 years for 8th Dan is...well...I guess that is a pretty big red flag if we're honestly looking at things.

Rank isn't always about skill level. Or about martial skill level. There are a lot of skills necessary to running an organization that have little or nothing to do with one's martial prowess. Not everyone can construct curriculum. Not everyone can organize schools and events, or communicate material. As an instructor, I'm sure that you are aware of this.

Ultimately, you need to look at the system and its GM as a GM. I really don't care how long he or she takes to get to their rank, particularly in a forty-plus year old organization which has had the same GM for its entire existence. If you like what you see in the system and if you like what you see at the school, and if you feel comfortable with the instructional staff and training environment, then its probably a good fit.

In this case, I see red flag. I look at the big picture; thriving art and viable art. Art has stood the test of time thus far. GM seems to know what he's doing. Then I look at the school. If everything looks good and I like the environment, then I consider the issue closed.

Others may feel differently, and that is certainly their prerogative.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Rank isn't always about skill level. Or about martial skill level. There are a lot of skills necessary to running an organization that have little or nothing to do with one's martial prowess. Not everyone can construct curriculum. Not everyone can organize schools and events, or communicate material. As an instructor, I'm sure that you are aware of this.

I understand the point your making, and it is valid. I would hope that it is a reason such as this. One thing though, you've now go me curious as to the one year/per each Dan grade steps and when they came into general practice. I'm going to have to check into that.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

How's this, from Taekwondo Times, a few quotes from the article he did with Chris Garland: January, 2003 Issue

Q: Why did you merge your organization with the Korean Hapkido Association and the Korea Hapkido Association?

Ji: Everything Hapkido originated from me.

Q: What was the purpose of this merger?

Ji: To unify everything; to make one (Hapkido). There are too many organizations. I want to unify everything and anyone that will follow because I made Hapkido.

Q: Was there any movement in Korea to keep Hapkidoists from creating their own style?

Ji: No, everything is from my style.

Does that answer your query?

This has gotten me interested to go back and look at some of the interviews that Marc Tedeschi included in his book on Hapkido. If I remember correctly, there were some differing viewpoints. I'd like to see what they were about and from whom.

 

[iron_ox]

This has gotten me interested to go back and look at some of the interviews that Marc Tedeschi included in his book on Hapkido. If I remember correctly, there were some differing viewpoints. I'd like to see what they were about and from whom.

Although I have read everything in the Tedeschi book, I would be interested in what it has to say. Here is a link to a now almost 8 year old thread on some of the same issues we are discussing now...long thread, some 24 pages I think, and I don't think a MOD was called in a single time...might be an interesting read for some...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?17798-Hapkido-Q-amp-A-s

 

[iron_ox]

Although I have read everything in the Tedeschi book, I would be interested in what it has to say. Here is a link to a now almost 8 year old thread on some of the same issues we are discussing now...long thread, some 24 pages I think, and I don't think a MOD was called in a single time...might be an interesting read for some...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?17798-Hapkido-Q-amp-A-s

Sorry, bad proofreading, I was trying to say I would be interested in what others thought of the Tedeschi information about this topic, I do not a copy of the book, so I don't recall off hand with any certainly what it does say.

 

[andyjeffries]

Am I the only person that finds all the references in this thread to just "Ji" very disrespectful? I think that people who have earned valid titles should have them used. If you are friends with someone, then call them by their first name. If not then refer to them as Mr Smith, Grandmaster Smith, GM Smith or Dojunim Smith (Smith-dojunim) - not just Smith.

I'm sure GM Ji doesn't really care that much, but come on guys, we're martial artists. I'm sure you can all disagree until you're blue in the face about whether GM Ji did or did not invent Hapkido kicks and whether he was worth an 8th Dan in the TIF he had, but surely we can all appreciate he's a great martial artist and is worth speaking about with respect?!

FWIW, I don't do Hapkido (I am interested in it and did it for about a year every second/third week - but that's not enough to consider myself "doing" it) but I wouldn't refer to my Taekwondo seniors just by their last name so I don't feel it's right to do it in this forum. I'm also not saying that I want to be referred to as Master Jeffries - Andy is fine on here - just that using simply surnames is very impolite in normal English.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't see where you're referring to this Andy? Unless you mean the TKDT quote above, which is TKDT and not any member here. It may have been done here in the thread, but I don't think it was intentional disrespect. I may have missed it here and there, maybe, in all the posts but it wasn't meant in a disrespectful manner.

 

[leadleg]

I believe a major concern with time in grade as some are using is the years of training as opposed to hours of training. Some people train two to three times per week, one to three hours per session. What if you were training six times per week at six hours per day, would that not shorten time in grade substantially?

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't see where you're referring to this Andy? Unless you mean the TKDT quote above, which is TKDT and not any member here. It may have been done here in the thread, but I don't think it was intentional disrespect. I may have missed it here and there, maybe, in all the posts but it wasn't meant in a disrespectful manner.

It's generally throughout the thread. There are quite a few posts where people just use "Ji" without any title (even a polite "Mr"). Maybe I'm just sensitive to the issue (being English rather than American; we have different things that push our buttons).

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I'm a long time Korean Hapkido student in GM Ji's lineage and have been a direct student of GM Ji for about 10 years now.

Sinmoo is GM J's last evolution of Korean Hapkido. What GM Ji teaches in part came from Choi Yong Sul's Yawara as well as other sources like Tae Kyon kicking and Taoist and Buddhist meditations and philosophy.

The You Tube kicks someone posted are the 25 basic single kicks of Sinmoo. Those kick have seven other variations we also have combination kicking, spin kicking and flying kicks sometimes called special kicks.

The kicks are executed differently from TKD and Karate and may seem unique to many. I can tell you they are combat or self-defense oriented and very powerful. Also the people doing the kicks on the videos are good instructors and kick well according to our style.

As far as rank goes, rank is always subjective to the standards of the school or teacher and there is no such thing as X time to achieve X rank, it is all arbitrary. Many people can and do reach a high level rank in 15 years if they work hard and study. Many others do not.

 

[zDom]

As far as rank goes, rank is always subjective to the standards of the school or teacher and there is no such thing as X time to achieve X rank, it is all arbitrary ...

That's all fine and well as long as everybody remembers that.

But they don't.

I've already had someone suggest that my instructor doesn't think very highly of me because I am still first dan in hapkido.

 

[iron_ox]

It's generally throughout the thread. There are quite a few posts where people just use "Ji" without any title (even a polite "Mr"). Maybe I'm just sensitive to the issue (being English rather than American; we have different things that push our buttons).

Would you find it disturbing if people that represented your art were less than honest about their position, rank, etc etc? This thread in the Hapkido section is about someone that has had MULTIPLE things written that are far more than suspect. From the rank listed on your signature I dare say you have been doing TKD a far bit; same with me and Hapkido. I think you need to re-read the tread again and see what some of us are getting at. A consistent, long standing, series of written information that is suspect - and in my opinion brings much of the art into question for those who might not have anything other than those articles/threads to rely upon for information.

All of the "go and meet him", "train with him", "understand his philosophy" rhetoric is missing the point entirely. I could care less if he helps old ladies across the street, or saves kittens, it is what has been written in his name, and what continues to be written in his name that is of principle concern of this thread. He has at least two websites where the "correct" story could be told - but this has never been done.
Honorifics are the least important thing at stake in this thread.

 

[iron_ox]

Greetings,

I'm a long time Korean Hapkido student in GM Ji's lineage and have been a direct student of GM Ji for about 10 years now.

Sinmoo is GM J's last evolution of Korean Hapkido. What GM Ji teaches in part came from Choi Yong Sul's Yawara as well as other sources like Tae Kyon kicking and Taoist and Buddhist meditations and philosophy.

The You Tube kicks someone posted are the 25 basic single kicks of Sinmoo. Those kick have seven other variations we also have combination kicking, spin kicking and flying kicks sometimes called special kicks.

The kicks are executed differently from TKD and Karate and may seem unique to many. I can tell you they are combat or self-defense oriented and very powerful. Also the people doing the kicks on the videos are good instructors and kick well according to our style.

As far as rank goes, rank is always subjective to the standards of the school or teacher and there is no such thing as X time to achieve X rank, it is all arbitrary. Many people can and do reach a high level rank in 15 years if they work hard and study. Many others do not.

Hello Stuart,

And since our last discussion on this topic, almost a decade ago, do we have anything more definitive on either "Taoist Lee" or "Grandma"? Names? Locations? Others that trained with these two of such skill?

In relation to the kicking, it now appears that Kim Moo-Hong - at least according to the sources in this thread - may have had nothing to do with the kicking as it has been related for years...

And as far as the rank, the speed seems less relevant that the fact that the last three ranks, which are referred to by number and date as "RANK" were actually issued by students...

Just things for thought.