GM JI Han Jae

[Kong Soo Do]

It appears that will be my only resource for information on these 'advance' kicks I suppose. Hopefully they will be a little more forthcoming that you have been.

And yes, it was 57 times, I counted. But even with that, I wish the very best for you and your father. And that is meant sincerely.

 

[puunui]

It appears that will be my only resource for information on these 'advance' kicks I suppose. Hopefully they will be a little more forthcoming that you have been.

I don't have to answer your questions, just like you haven't answered mine. If you wish to receive answers, then give answers.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't have to answer your questions, just like you haven't answered mine. If you wish to receive answers, then give answers.

Are you serious!?! You've started multiple threads about me, my art, my rank, my instructor etc and I've entered each and everyone and discussed, in detail with the exception of the one thread the moderator closed before I saw it. I even invited you on to my own board to discuss each and everything in the closed thread to your hearts content. You declined!

I've answered more than enough questions from you. But for some reason, it is super-secret how long you've been training in HKD, how long it took you to make 9th Dan, or discuss invented/included/basic/advanced kicks...which you brought into the thread in the first place.

Good gravy you take the cake.:BSmeter:

 

[iron_ox]

that quote is not entirely accurate as far as GM Ji's philosophy goes.

From another 9th dan of Ji, Ian Cyrus in his paper titled "History of Hapkido, A perspective" - "He made specific reference to the spin kick which in his view, should only be executed with the right leg (foot) with the contra-lateral palm touching the floor."

Is this more accurate? Without the Biblical Reference that is?

This invented/created/learned kicking issue is something that you brought up Glenn - I asked for a reference to the kicks you mentioned were not the basic ones.

It appears that the spinning kicks are not wholly part of the "Basic 25", so is it accurate that Ji invented these kicks, and if turning clockwise is not important, why does this get quoted so much?

 

[iron_ox]

Are you serious!?! You've started multiple threads about me, my art, my rank, my instructor etc and I've entered each and everyone and discussed, in detail with the exception of the one thread the moderator closed before I saw it. I even invited you on to my own board to discuss each and everything in the closed thread to your hearts content. You declined!

I've answered more than enough questions from you. But for some reason, it is super-secret how long you've been training in HKD, how long it took you to make 9th Dan, or discuss invented/included/basic/advanced kicks...which you brought into the thread in the first place.

Good gravy you take the cake.:BSmeter:

There seems to be a pattern emerging with Glenn if he thinks you are discussing anything he does not approve of...

 

[mastercole]

From another 9th dan of Ji, Ian Cyrus in his paper titled "History of Hapkido, A perspective" - "He made specific reference to the spin kick which in his view, should only be executed with the right leg (foot) with the contra-lateral palm touching the floor."

Is this more accurate? Without the Biblical Reference that is?

This invented/created/learned kicking issue is something that you brought up Glenn - I asked for a reference to the kicks you mentioned were not the basic ones.

It appears that the spinning kicks are not wholly part of the "Basic 25", so is it accurate that Ji invented these kicks, and if turning clockwise is not important, why does this get quoted so much?

Why do you expect people to answer your questions when you don't answer theirs?

 

[puunui]

There seems to be a pattern emerging with Glenn if he thinks you are discussing anything he does not approve of...

Actually it is your pattern. There are several threads going on regarding your Hapkido teacher GM Lim. Are you planning on joining in the discussion?

 

[iron_ox]

Why do you expect people to answer your questions when you don't answer theirs?

Ad hominem argument.

Glenn continues to assert things about invention, special kicking, misinterpreted statements, incomplete statements, then no follow up. So the inquiry most likely will continue despite the efforts to derail the thread.

 

[puunui]

Are you serious!?!

Yes, I'm serious. For example, we still don't know who taught you hapkido, what kind of hapkido you learned, when you started, etc. We do know that you claim that you can use the name hapkido if you wanted to, and that in your opinion, there is no difference between hapkido, chin na or "aikijutsu", which probably means that you never learned the hapkido kicks. That makes sense, since you are asking about what special kicks are included in hapkido. If you were a practitioner of hapkido, you would know the answer to that question, instead of constantly bothering me about it. But then again, if you don't wish to answer these questions, it's ok. That's why I don't bother asking you any questions anymore. You just won't answer. And the reason why I choose not to answer any of your questions is that you are not sincere about it and only want to make more arguments against GM Ji. You don't need me to criticize him.

 

[mastercole]

Ad hominem argument.

Glenn continues to assert things about invention, special kicking, misinterpreted statements, incomplete statements, then no follow up. So the inquiry most likely will continue despite the efforts to derail the thread.

Truth is truth. You have a history of avoiding questions

 

[mastercole]

Originally Posted by Kong Soo Do
Are you serious!?!

Yes, I'm serious. For example, we still don't know who taught you hapkido, what kind of hapkido you learned, when you started, etc. We do know that you claim that you can use the name hapkido if you wanted to, and that in your opinion, there is no difference between hapkido, chin na or "aikijutsu", which probably means that you never learned the hapkido kicks. That makes sense, since you are asking about what special kicks are included in hapkido. If you were a practitioner of hapkido, you would know the answer to that question, instead of constantly bothering me about it. But then again, if you don't wish to answer these questions, it's ok. That's why I don't bother asking you any questions anymore. You just won't answer. And the reason why I choose not to answer any of your questions is that you are not sincere about it and only want to make more arguments against GM Ji. You don't need me to criticize him.

Exactly

Funny when you ask questions about some peoples background in a style they claim to practice, and better yet teach, and all you get is "let's take it to PM"

ROFLMAO

 

[puunui]

Glenn continues to assert things about invention, special kicking, misinterpreted statements, incomplete statements, then no follow up. So the inquiry most likely will continue despite the efforts to derail the thread.

Again, if you want answers to your questions, go ask GM Ji directly. There have been plenty of answers to your questions, until it became obvious that your agenda is to continue to personally attack GM Ji. Saying that I don't answer questions, especially those involving the korean martial arts, really doesn't fly, because I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who gives more factual information regarding these subjects than I do on MT. Maybe mastercole equals or surpasses the amount of information presented.

 

[mastercole]

Again, if you want answers to your questions, go ask GM Ji directly. There have been plenty of answers to your questions, until it became obvious that your agenda is to continue to personally attack GM Ji. Saying that I don't answer questions, especially those involving the korean martial arts, really doesn't fly, because I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who gives more factual information regarding these subjects than I do on MT. Maybe mastercole equals or surpasses the amount of information presented.

That was a kind compliment, but I don't think I am at the level yet

For some folks it can be a scary thing to go into something deeply, or discuss directly with the source. What they discover can completely change what they think and for some, that is a very scary thought.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Gentlemen, stick to the original topic.

You want to bicker like old married folks, do it elsewhere.

You'll note the absence of the word 'please' as this is not a request.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.


GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.

• Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
• Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion? Why or why not?

Since this has been a long running thread, above is the original questions. The first has been answered; one of his students with limited Hapkido training was given an administrative post and in return promoted his own instructor. So the history question is answered.

I've weighed in on both sides of the second question with observations. Additional information came by way of Yorshire who commented on an instructor (I'd have to go back and check the name, but it is in this thread) in Hapkido that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4-5 years. From what I understand, it is within the same branch of Hapkido as GM Ji.

So the second question can be broadened into; is 16 years of training enough for 8th Dan (while in your mid-20's)? And is 4-5 years enough to go from white belt to 6th Dan? Additionally, was this a case of seriously short TIG or was this a case of skipping Dan grades? How does this compare with the overall Hapkido community?

Thank you.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Interesting point, did you ever mention this to Glenn the many times he's done the same thing? Or can some people look at this topic and some can't? How about a level playing field for one and all.

This isn't about my policing your posts and not his; you explicitly said that you were not pointing fingers or raising red flags. I disagree. That isn't a criticism; people point fingers and raise red flags all the time. GM Ji is a public figure. He runs a large organization. His rank isn't secret, nor is the way in which is was obtained. Thus it is open to public discussion and if someone wants to point fingers or raise red flags then so be it. If you are going to start your own branch of a martial art and run a large organization, that sort of thing is part of the job.

If you are referring to the back and forth that the two of you have been having for the past two years, I'm not touching that.

Sure it does, by way of comparison between arts, cultures, various seniors and their motiviation(s).

No, it doesn't. For one, this topic is not about comparison of Ji as an eighth dan to Kano as an eighth dan; it is about whether or not Ji's eighth dan is valid within the context of hapkido. You called attention to the rapidity of Ji's promotion and then made comments about his branch of hapkido and asked about how it stacks up with other branches of hapkido.

For another, comparison of rank between completely different arts, while certainly a valid topic of discussion, is in no way related to the validity of rank issued within a given art.

So really, it is back to whether or not someone in their mid-20's with around 16 years of training really warrants an 8th Dan. If so, why? If not, why? And yes, we can compare it to other arts as in some way, shape or form they are interconnected.

That is basically what it comes down to. Though while there is a general interconnectedness between arts, it is not in such a way that it would be relevant in this discussion. What would be relevant is to look at grading norms of the Korean arts of the day.

To further the discussion, not counting the earlier mentioned individual that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4 years, using at least the semi-recognized standard of perhaps 1 year per Dan level for TIG i.e. 1st to 2nd = 1 year, 2nd to 3rd = 3 years etc, GM Ji would have been around a 5th Dan. Give or take.

I had asked this question in my previous response: were the time in grade 'norms' that we are familiar with in place at that time?

Since he was the 'founder' (a term I'm using loosely), everyone else would have been under him in TIG/TIA. So if he is a 'founder', why not just go to 10th?

Not all arts have a tenth dan and not all that do designate tenth dan as founder/soke/head of system. For example, KKW Taekwondo has a tenth dan ranking, but it is unrelated to being a founder or head of the system.

Why not progress in a natural progression as anyone else would be expected to do? Is accelerated TIG permissible for a founder? Should they just assume the top position without any progression? And if it was done then...why would anyone have a problem with it now?

If you found a system, you are beyond rank. You may assign yourself any rank you wish. Its like asking if a kid out of high school who 'founds' his own business has the right to call himself president of the company without having gone through the stages of employee, assistant manager, manager, district manager, regional manager, divisional VP, and VP before assigning himself the title.

Now, whether or not he's qualified to run a business is another matter, and only time will tell; the business will either be successful or will fold.

Back to GM Ji, was it permissible for him to do what he did? Sure. Its basically what Kano and Bruce Lee did; Lee just didn't used dan grades. You could do the same. And I'd base my opinion of you as head of your system on your ability to practice your system and on the soundness of your system.

Dan grades ultimately are arbitrary. They are set to represent a specific level of training and responsibility, but that level varries from art to art and from organization to organization within an art.

So the real question is not how long it took GM Ji to go from zero to eighth dan. The question is how sound is Sin Moo hapkido and how effective has GM Ji been over the past several decades in his capacity as head of Sin Moo hapkido.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since this has been a long running thread, above is the original questions. The first has been answered; one of his students with limited Hapkido training was given an administrative post and in return promoted his own instructor. So the history question is answered.

I've weighed in on both sides of the second question with observations. Additional information came by way of Yorshire who commented on an instructor (I'd have to go back and check the name, but it is in this thread) in Hapkido that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4-5 years. From what I understand, it is within the same branch of Hapkido as GM Ji.

So the second question can be broadened into; is 16 years of training enough for 8th Dan (while in your mid-20's)? And is 4-5 years enough to go from white belt to 6th Dan? Additionally, was this a case of seriously short TIG or was this a case of skipping Dan grades? How does this compare with the overall Hapkido community?

Thank you.

When arts are young, promotions tend to be rapid. GM Ji and the Sin Moo instructor you reference above are hardly unique in this.

Again, I ask, was the math that you are doing even relevant at the time? Maybe it was, but if the general time in grade norms that you are invoking had not yet been established or had not become commonplace by that point, then it would not be.

 

[mastercole]

When arts are young, promotions tend to be rapid. GM Ji and the Sin Moo instructor you reference above are hardly unique in this.

Again, I ask, was the math that you are doing even relevant at the time? Maybe it was, but if the general time in grade norms that you are invoking had not yet been established or had not become commonplace by that point, then it would not be.

The founder of a system can do with that system what they like, even when they keep creating and collapsing systems, over and over and over again

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The founder of a system can do with that system what they like, even when they keep creating and collapsing systems, over and over and over again

Ah, this is new information that I was unaware of. How many systems did GM Ji create and collapse (presumabley before Hapkido)? What do you have in the way of factual data to support these 'pre-Hapkido' systems? Thank you.

 

[iron_ox]

Since this has been a long running thread, above is the original questions. The first has been answered; one of his students with limited Hapkido training was given an administrative post and in return promoted his own instructor. So the history question is answered.

Except why does the "Founder" need to lest any grading dates, let alone those from his students as a timeline for advancement?

I've weighed in on both sides of the second question with observations. Additional information came by way of Yorshire who commented on an instructor (I'd have to go back and check the name, but it is in this thread) in Hapkido that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4-5 years. From what I understand, it is within the same branch of Hapkido as GM Ji.

That would be Massan Ghorbani, who according to another published report was granted his 8th dan in 1998 - just two years later.

So the second question can be broadened into; is 16 years of training enough for 8th Dan (while in your mid-20's)? And is 4-5 years enough to go from white belt to 6th Dan? Additionally, was this a case of seriously short TIG or was this a case of skipping Dan grades? How does this compare with the overall Hapkido community?

Thank you.

It seems that even though Ji is claiming to be the founder of Hapkido, he is currently only concerned with ranking in Sin Moo, and there are other entities that rank outside of Sin Moo, apparently.