Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[RTKDCMB]

While I don't agree with everything Hanzou says, to be fair, I don't think anyone knows what a traditional art is. My point of referencing the other thread is to suggest that everyone has a different, personal definition. There is certainly overlap, but your definition is going to depend on a lot of things that are largely subjective.

True, but to suggest that a traditional is one that never changes is flat out wrong.

 

[Hanzou]

Do you not consider non-contact sparring to be sparring?

Nope.

And what do you know of the schools in her area?

Look up Millburn NJ TKD and/or Karate. The websites of various schools should tell the tale.

I have already explained to you how evidence works. I have still provided more evidence than you have. All evidence is anecdotal to you if you have not seen it with your own eyes in person or on video.

Well exactly. I can say I took down 10 knife-wielding crazies with my baby finger while I sat at a table eating ramen noodles. There's no way for you to prove that I'm lying. Having video evidence is one of the best ways to verify someone's claim, especially when an ocean separates two parties.

I have seen a few students from other martial arts including kickboxing and few impress me. You have never been on the receiving end of any of our black belts so there is really nothing you can compare it to.

Cool.

Back to your theory comment. Scientific theories have to be falsifiable (must be able to show its ineffectiveness) If I state that my martial art is effective against aliens from the Andromeda galaxy then without ever being able to produce one it could not be falsified. All the evidence that I have seen so far shows my art is effective for self defense, it has not been falsified so far.

That's all fine and good, but to say that you're going to have a practitioner be able to dislocate someone's knee in a dangerous situation without ever actually dislocating someone's knee before, is a pretty tall order.

Meanwhile;

 

[jks9199]

So we've established that you don't know what a traditional art is.

While I don't agree with everything Hanzou says, to be fair, I don't think anyone knows what a traditional art is. My point of referencing the other thread is to suggest that everyone has a different, personal definition. There is certainly overlap, but your definition is going to depend on a lot of things that are largely subjective.

I think it's perhaps more fair to say that he has a more idiosyncratic definition than many people use -- but he also has a clearer definition than many people. That said, guys... Kind of off topic. Maybe starting another thread (yet another time...) or reviving an existing thread about the definitions would be a good idea?

 

[Steve]

I think it's perhaps more fair to say that he has a more idiosyncratic definition than many people use -- but he also has a clearer definition than many people. That said, guys... Kind of off topic. Maybe starting another thread (yet another time...) or reviving an existing thread about the definitions would be a good idea?

Agreed and exactly why i shared the link to the other thread.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Nope.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion even when it's wrong.

Look up Millburn NJ TKD and/or Karate. The websites of various schools should tell the tale.

Doesn't answer my question.

Well exactly. I can say I took down 10 knife-wielding crazies with my baby finger while I sat at a table eating ramen noodles. There's no way for you to prove that I'm lying.

As with all claims they have to be evaluated on whether they are reasonable or highly unlikely with a bit of common sense. There would be no way to determine if you are lying about your finger prowess but that kind of claim seems very unlikely. A claim that I could break someone's knee with a side kick is far more likely given my training, experience, skill and physical condition is far more likely to be true. Your claim in this comment is an example of a false analogy, taking it to an absurdity.

Having video evidence is one of the best ways to verify someone's claim, especially when an ocean separates two parties.

Video evidence is still very limiting unless you are planning to follow many students around with a video camera every where they go just in case they get into a self defense situation.

There is a disparity between having videos of combat sports (many are televised or public events) than noncompetitive self defense arts because most assaults (fights) in the 'street' go unrecorded and unnoticed by the general public. When it comes to self dense skills absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That's all fine and good, but to say that you're going to have a practitioner be able to dislocate someone's knee in a dangerous situation without ever actually dislocating someone's knee before, is a pretty tall order.

Not as tall as you might think.

Meanwhile;

I am sure there is a point in there somewhere.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Maybe starting another thread (yet another time...) or reviving an existing thread about the definitions would be a good idea?

May be there could be a section devoted to definitions somewhere?

 

[Zero]

That's all fine and good, but to say that you're going to have a practitioner be able to dislocate someone's knee in a dangerous situation without ever actually dislocating someone's knee before, is a pretty tall order.

Not too sure about that one, numerous H2H techs were trained in WWII, not used to "lethal effect", nor debilitating effect nor anywhere near so (it's not too great for the war effort and you run out of volunteers quite quick) in training and then put into real, lethal effect in combat. Sure not nearly as many times as some would have you believe but there are documented accounts of troops killing enemies with H2H techs.

On a much more simple level, the first time I knocked out an opponent in a tournament was the first time I had ever done so with a high kick, I had never knocked anyone out with a kick before in training. So if I can knock someone out, why can't a grappler go through their tech to breakage when only having applied in controlled manner previously in training?

Or are you really saying you have gone to max on all of your bjj techs on your training partners (and due to this trail of discarded, broken human beings, you now know you can put your moves to full effect in da hood)?

 

[Zero]

Anyway, this thread by Brian is a great one. It got me thinking of the "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" by TE Lawrence. A damn good and fascinating martial read (but I have not been able to get through all volumes) and a great addition alongside the likes of the Art of War, etc.

 

[drop bear]

Not too sure about that one, numerous H2H techs were trained in WWII, not used to "lethal effect", nor debilitating effect nor anywhere near so (it's not too great for the war effort and you run out of volunteers quite quick) in training and then put into real, lethal effect in combat. Sure not nearly as many times as some would have you believe but there are documented accounts of troops killing enemies with H2H techs.

On a much more simple level, the first time I knocked out an opponent in a tournament was the first time I had ever done so with a high kick, I had never knocked anyone out with a kick before in training. So if I can knock someone out, why can't a grappler go through their tech to breakage when only having applied in controlled manner previously in training?

Or are you really saying you have gone to max on all of your bjj techs on your training partners (and due to this trail of discarded, broken human beings, you now know you can put your moves to full effect in da hood)?

Submissions are a different dynamic in that you can hold a person in a sub for real in exactly the same way you would do at training.

If a person can fight through the pain and immobilisation of your submission you will know about it in advance. Unlike a potentially bone breaking strike. Which will be guess work.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

In the thread “Is grappling better for female self-defense than striking?” the idea of a fundamental pillar of self-defense” came up. Warning – while interesting, it is a long thread with a lot of- this is better than this, you know nothings, I knows all, type of posts. The talk of ‘fundamental pillars’ did start me wondering what different people would include as fundamental pillars of self-defense training. I imagine that the answers might depend on the culture lived in, the type of attacks experienced, capabilities and limitations of those training, length of time available for the training, and a host of other variables. I searched and found the thread “self-Defense???” interesting but different than a discussion on what folks expect or teach as specific pillars of self-defense.

For the start of this exploration (thread drift happens and can be interesting) let’s assumes that the prospective student is married, with small children, and limited training time – say once or twice a week for a year. The kind of attack that she may face, could be assault in a parking garage, road rage, work place violence, domestic abuse, violent robbery, wrong place wrong time violence, and home invasion. Or we can assume that she might be single, so we could add date rape violence, bar/night club violence, woman on woman violence to the list. Attacks against the elderly are brutal as well, and in some areas becoming common place, so we could add healthcare/ nursing home violence to the possible list above.

This video, taken with a nanny cam captures the violence that is common of assaults against women by men. They are violent and brutal. With this video to start – what do you think should form the ‘fundamentals of self-defense training’ for the women described above? Warning, video is violent.

https://youtu.be/qU0EJS3cJIc

Along with the suggested pillars, how about some reasoning of why, and how to train them?

Now, everyone reading this thread can agree that there can be more than one way to solve a problem. For example 2+2=4, 3+1=4, 10-6=4, 16 divided by 4 = 4… which is the correct math formula, depends entirely on context. Let’s try to discuss the messages and not so much the messengers although a little background on the posters experiences if they want, might help to add context?

Thank you

Brian King

Brian R. VanCise covers it pretty well so I really can't add much there. However I would look at many of those as the foundation on which the pillars sit. But I am not in anyway disputing what Brian said, it is simply my opinion. And those things on which they sit are equally important

Here are a few fundamental pillars of self-defense as I see it: avoidance, awareness, strategy and tactics specific to violence in your area and violence in general, verbal and non-verbal de-escalation techniques, understanding human behavior in regards to criminal behavior in your area, training in weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping hands and joint manipulation, grappling. Heavy dose of Scenario Based Training where the person training learns to deal with adrenaline. Attribute training so that you can implement your physical skills: such as but not limited to strength training, aerobic training (with air), anaerobic training (without air), stretching, plus a lot more. Specific things for attribute training ie. weight lifting, kettle bells, Bulgarian bag, running, sprints, swimming, bicycling, hiking, kayaking, etc. All in all a very fit lifestyle.

If you pose a very specific course for the woman above who only can train a couple of times a week and for only a year then obviously you have to get them consciously thinking about their personal protection so that they will raise their awareness and avoid areas that may be potentially dangerous for them. Help them learn to strategically reduce their victim profile and tactics they can employ for verbal and non-verbal de-escalation. Then a goal to improve their fitness while training heavily how to strike with their hands, elbows and knees. (skip kicks because they take quite a bit longer to develop though if they had longer then you could add it in) Basic functional grappling with emphasis on sprawl, guard with sweeps and getting back up as quickly as possible and getting out of there. Heavy and I mean heavy edged weapons training and firearms training. If you are good with a tool and can deploy it efficiently you have an extreme advantage! We are a tool wielding species so take advantage of that!

I had to type this quickly so I know I have forgotten to mention a few things.

I suspect that most people are going to recommend whatever system it is that they train in.

Now to recommend what you find in CMA. it is fairly short
1) kicking and punching
2) Shuaijiao
3) Qinna

Those are the fundamental things (could call them pillars I guess) found in all CMA styles to varying degrees since all are necessary for proper SD

Great topic Brian!

Yes it was but sadly there are those that got involved that are more interested in the "mine is bigger than yours" discussion and "bashing all arts they no nothing about"...you know...trolls....

 

[drop bear]

Otherwise I don't know how good your google fu is but I have never seen a video of a knee being broken from a kick. I have seen limbs broken from submissions. And in a deliberate and methodical manner.

 

[elder999]

Otherwise I don't know how good your google fu is but I have never seen a video of a knee being broken from a kick. I have seen limbs broken from submissions. And in a deliberate and methodical manner.

Well, that's because the knee isn't a legal target in MMA, or most ring contests...here ya go, though:

and for an anatomical education:

 

[Zero]

Submissions are a different dynamic in that you can hold a person in a sub for real in exactly the same way you would do at training.

If a person can fight through the pain and immobilisation of your submission you will know about it in advance. Unlike a potentially bone breaking strike. Which will be guess work.

Uhh, I think we are agreeing here? I have many years submission experience so this submission stuff and its dynamics ain't new to me.

My point is, and was, that, if you can do a submission tech right in class, you can take it all the way in reality to a break/tear/choke-out. And so, Hanzou's concern that a dislocation in real life is not much of a possibility for someone that has not already dislocated someone's limb previously does not stack up in my view.

Are we friends and agreeing here or are we totally out of sorts on this one?

 

[drop bear]

Uhh, I think we are agreeing here? I have many years submission experience so this submission stuff and its dynamics ain't new to me.

My point is, and was, that, if you can do a submission tech right in class, you can take it all the way in reality to a break/tear/choke-out. And so, Hanzou's concern that a dislocation in real life is not much of a possibility for someone that has not already dislocated someone's limb previously does not stack up in my view.

Are we friends and agreeing here or are we totally out of sorts on this one?

Probably half and half. Getting a limb to the point of immobilisation and having your partner screaming is a lot better argument for saying you could break it than lightly tapping it with a strike.

 

[Zero]

Otherwise I don't know how good your google fu is but I have never seen a video of a knee being broken from a kick. I have seen limbs broken from submissions. And in a deliberate and methodical manner.

Jebus, you're kidding right? You think the knee is a hard target for strikes? Straight on it is a killer hard surface but from the side it is incredibly vulnerable to staving in/folding from a shin attack or foot strike (side or heel). It is also vulnerable from a stomp coming down from on top into the knee - this has been done to me under control in sparing from a very skilled fighter so I know so, but I have never done this myself, although have "trained it". I have finished fights with knee attacks and have been injured myself - and couldn't fight for three months - from a shin attack to side of my knee by a Japanese fella at an invitational.

 

[drop bear]

Well, that's because the knee isn't a legal target in MMA, or most ring contests...here ya go, though:

and for an anatomical education:

Sorry where is the knee not a legal target in mma?

Nice vid by the way.

 

[Zero]

Probably half and half. Getting a limb to the point of immobilisation and having your partner screaming is a lot better argument for saying you could break it than lightly tapping it with a strike.

Ah, no I think we are agreeing, you just don't want to be friends! I am only arguing against Hanzou from his view as to submission = break, etc without previous experience in actually breaking. My point was that if I can do this with striking, clearly this could be done with submission.

Although, breaking bones aside with strikes, I see no real difference in training subs and taking to break point if needed (you always have to get your submission on ok, don't assume this is just going to happen) and training strikes and taking that to KOs in tournament or street. My clubs, particularly my old goju club where I earned my stripes, don't do your "lightly tap" thing...

 

[drop bear]

Jebus, you're kidding right? You think the knee is a hard target for strikes? Straight on it is a killer hard surface but from the side it is incredibly vulnerable to staving in/folding from a shin attack or foot strike (side or heel). It is also vulnerable from a stomp coming down from on top into the knee - this has been done to me under control in sparing from a very skilled fighter so I know so, but I have never done this myself, although have "trained it". I have finished fights with knee attacks and have been injured myself - and couldn't fight for three months - from a shin attack to side of my knee by a Japanese fella at an invitational.

Round kicks to the knee are a common strike.

Have you broken a guys knee or not?

It was a bit unclear in that post.

 

[drop bear]

Ah, no I think we are agreeing, you just don't want to be friends! I am only arguing against Hanzou from his view as to submission = break, etc without previous experience in actually breaking. My point was that if I can do this with striking, clearly this could be done with submission.

Although, breaking bones aside with strikes, I see no real difference in training subs and taking to break point if needed (you always have to get your submission on ok, don't assume this is just going to happen) and training strikes and taking that to KOs in tournament or street. My clubs, particularly my old goju club where I earned my stripes, don't do your "lightly tap" thing...

Heavy strikes to limbs or punch people in the head untill they fall over?

Because again here we could say heavy strikes will work in training like they work for reals.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Otherwise I don't know how good your google fu is but I have never seen a video of a knee being broken from a kick. I have seen limbs broken from submissions. And in a deliberate and methodical manner.

Not sure how good yours is either since googlefu brings in a range from 15lbs to 30lbs of pressure to break a knee, but this all depends on the angle the knee is hit. The 15 to 30 number apperaees to be straight on from a front kick. Now 15 to 30 is quite a range and I am still looking for a site or source I consider reputable before I unequivocally state it is this many pounds of pressure. But I believe the average kick can deliver more that 15 to 30 pounds of pressure to the knee