Humilities role, if any, in training for self defense?

[Tez3]

that people tend to equate confidence with ego, ego with ability, and humility with lack either confidence or ability.

Quite honestly I don't nor do people I know think like that.
When people say 'humble' I tend to think of Uriah Heep being ever so 'umble and I shudder. I think it's more a certain religion's way of thinking about things, that one should always be humble, quiet and obedient. Whereas I think if you are brought up properly you will have a sense of self worth and self esteem which is very necessary but not allow yourself an inflated ego. You should have a realistic sense of self as well as common sense both of which which will tell you if you are verging on being boastful or idiotic ( therefore not getting yourself into aggressive situations you don't need to) etc.
I believe some societies in the world are such that children are brought up to be ego driven and demanding. 'Go getting' is the mantra along with 'greed is good' so being humble in a society like that will have a different meaning to how others see it. It also means a different thing to women than to men!
How to be Humble without being a Wimp - Contemporary Voices

 

[toddfletcher]

Great discussion. Something that had come to mind several times this year. I have a friend teaching at my school. He teaches a different flavor of martial arts, and that organization has several differences. Among others, they have added 'humility' to the tenets of Taekwondo. And have contemplated whether or not I should also add it to my teaching.

My take.... it don't think it should be an aspect of fight technique training. In teaching a kick, I don't want my student burdened with the abstract notion of if they are being a humble or prideful fighter. I want them to training the technique correctly. It should - however - be an aspect cultivated in life training and displayed when interacting with fellow students and instructors. In my experience, it isn't pride or humility that matters in winning a confrontation. Instead I suggest 'empty-mind'. A lack of self consideration. Instead be in the moment, react to and act on an opponent's movements and technique with a full realization of your own skill level. It seems to me that if you focus on pride or humility you are trying to project a modified version of self. My perception of my skill will not succeed or fail to defeat an opponent. It is my actual action. Remove that abstraction, and use only what is real.

In training outside of the fight, one should always be teachable and self-critical. This is a path to real improvement. But in the moment of conflict, forget such concepts, and use the reality of your skill and the reality of your opponent's skill. A prideful fighter will still defeat a humble one, if his skill is better. The abstract concept of pride or humility addresses what leads to the fight. IMO.

 

[wingchunguy]

In the fundamental pillars of self-defense thread, a brief interesting discussion of humility evolved but like many a long and intense conversations, the topic wandered and then disappeared. It seemed like an interesting topic perhaps worth further discussion and exploration. What is your opinion of the two following questions.

Is there a role for humility in training for self-defense?
If so what is it?

@Jenna, @drop bear, @elder999

Some of the quotes from the pillars thread, I think I missed some of them. Sorry.

I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT! You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.

 

[toddfletcher]

@wingchunguy - If I understand correctly, the question was regarding "humility" and "self-defense". Self-Defense meaning the study and teaching of a smaller set of techniques for better protecting yourself in a confrontation. The term 'martial arts' as you are referring (and I would agree) encompasses an entire circle of life lessons, fighting, etc..

 

[Tez3]

I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT! You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that a great many MMA people aren't all fighters, are pursuing the system 'to the end' and are most likely to be graded martial artists form other systems. I would suggest you rethink the bit about MMA not teaching respect by the way, it certainly does, along with being humble, trust me on this one. I think before style bashing MMA you should perhaps calm down ie not shout at us in capital letters and actually take the time to learn more about MMA and the people before deriding them.

 

[wingchunguy]

@wingchunguy - If I understand correctly, the question was regarding "humility" and "self-defense". Self-Defense meaning the study and teaching of a smaller set of techniques for better protecting yourself in a confrontation. The term 'martial arts' as you are referring (and I would agree) encompasses an entire circle of life lessons, fighting, etc..

Right, todd! The term "martial arts" is all-encompassing, and includes not only the techniques needed for self defense, but also the correct mind-set, humility, and spiritual awareness. Like I said, it is a lifetime journey, and each one is different for each individual.

 

[wingchunguy]

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that a great many MMA people aren't all fighters, are pursuing the system 'to the end' and are most likely to be graded martial artists form other systems. I would suggest you rethink the bit about MMA not teaching respect by the way, it certainly does, along with being humble, trust me on this one. I think before style bashing MMA you should perhaps calm down ie not shout at us in capital letters and actually take the time to learn more about MMA and the people before deriding them.

No, it doesn't! Where do you see respect when they are all talking trash about each other and getting in each other's faces? I don't think you know what respect means. I know all about the mma. It is a sham and just a sideshow for our amusement, nothing more. If you want to learn REAL respect, then take a traditional martial art, like wing chun or karate.

 

[Tez3]

No, it doesn't! Where do you see respect when they are all talking trash about each other and getting in each other's faces? I don't think you know what respect means. I know all about the mma. It is a sham and just a sideshow for our amusement, nothing more. If you want to learn REAL respect, then take a traditional martial art, like wing chun or karate.

Really? So you are taking what you see on television and applying it to ALL MMA people, even though you don't know them? As for trash talking aren't you doing exactly the same thing by trash talking MMA and it's practitioners . One would expect better then from someone intent on proving that only TMA's have humble and respectful students.
You obviously don't understand MMA because it is actually made up of traditional martial arts, many of us are what you call traditional martial artists who also chose to train MMA. As I said not everyone fights, many train because they enjoy it, they often also train a single style as well.
As for disrespect you have shown a great deal of that by jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, as for WC I suggest you pop over to that section on here and read some of the 'discussions', it will be educational for you.

 

[Buka]

I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT! You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.

Wow.

I didn't think I'd see "code of conduct" "real Martial Artist", yelling through capitalization and insulting others as a representation of someone who loves the Martial way.

If you printed out your above post and showed it to your Sensei, my guess is he/she would be less than pleased. I know if one of my students spoke like that it would be off to the Martial woodshed for them.

 

[ballen0351]

THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT.

Says who?

 

[Tez3]

Please watch through to the end and note the behaviour of the winner. You can also note, whinchunguy, that the techniques are more than adequate for self defence if necessary.
This is from the European Games this week.

 

[sacramentotaichi]

hu·mil·i·ty
(h)yo͞oˈmilədē/
noun

1. a modest or low view of one's own importance; humbleness.
   synonyms: modesty, humbleness, meekness, diffidence, unassertiveness;
   lack of pride, lack of vanity;
   servility, submissiveness
   "he accepted the award with sincere humility"

Being humble will help you not get into the situation that needs self defense in the first place. - Tai Chi Sacramento

 

[Jenna]

I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT! You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.

If there is some thing I do not grasp then I would not want you to bother your self too much over it.. there is abundantly plenty of things I do not grasp so you must for the meantime accept my ignorance. I am grateful though you care to correct me.

I have two questions if you mind to answer that will help to clarify.. and if not that is ok too I do not mean you any offence in asking..

1. is the way you practice your wing chun a perfect practice?
2. is your wing chun the way you practice it a perfect art?

thank you

 

[Rolls_Royce_Phantom]

For what its worth, I'm a Shotokan base karateka w. some small circle training..still training solo for a few years now. Afa the capacity to learn control through humility is conscerned, its difficult to select a semantic based syllabus to enlighten this capacity, however I could not see an inability to deal with humility an asset in and of itself.

On the actual applied training aspect, I do have one drill where I use a cable pull/ hoist for a 70lb heavy bag on a footbal field goal post. After I do passing drills (football) and of course striking drills, there is one segment that is based on awarenes and reaction to being hit with the swinging bag in a relaxed state. Its a good test of my temperament to see how I react to the feeling of being pushed without provocation. It's also an interesting physical note on how the body reacts without gaurd. Added to that being a solo drill I have to come up with some self control reactions...its actually quite telling. I won't lie though..I've gotten angry at the bag before, starring at it like it had some kind of attitude problem.
>:O

 

[Danny T]

I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT!

Code of conduct. Interesting choice of words from someone shouting at the rest of us.
As to your statement on "THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE...".
For some yes for others not so much.

You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.

It appears to me you know little about the MMA field. Yes there are some in mma just as there are in the many other systems who are not very humble, who train with an attitude of I'm better than everyone else but that is not the norm.
I've been in the martial arts for over 40 years. I have trained in boxing, shotokan, wrestling, wing chun, muay thai, pekiti-tirsia kali, tai chi, hapkido, silat, combat submission wrestling and a few others. I am a high level practitioner and instructor in wing chun, muay thai, and pekiti-tirsia. And I coach MMA. Other than muay thai I have witnessed far more respect and admiration by those who are in the mma community toward each other than in any of the other arts.

What you witness on the media is almost always show. It is about building controversy for ticket sales and it is psychological combat. Read the 'Art of War'. Combat sports - MMA is a very respectful group toward each other. You may have to be behind the scenes to see.

 

[Mabus]

Depends how you understand humility.

I very much like how Don Juan puts it in the Castaneda books:

"The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity."

In this sense, it is paramount, as it has everything to do with awake awareness and a deeper understand of self (know thyself) and will give you a much more appropriate and authentic response to a possibly ultra-violent, hyper volatile, chaotic and spontaneous situation.

With humility, you will always have the answer. Indeed... It is everything you need to have a beautiful death.

 

[elder999]

. Indeed... It is everything you need to have a beautiful death.

-meh- I've seen death, and come close to dying several times.

Desiring or aspiring to a "beautiful death," kind of strikes me like praying to God for "courage."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT!

Old Chinese MA saying said, when you are

- fighting, you should act like a tiger and eat your opponent alive.
- not fighting, you should act like a sheep and be the nicest person on earth.

To me, MA is as simple as "send bad guys to hell, keep good guys on earth".

 

[MaxRob]

Humility in my view has a roll.
We are all vulnerable despite our pain thesholds, the element of humility is actually being aware of what you can do and also what you may not be able to do, self defense is highly situational, humility is a weapon ,they don't see you coming.
Humility is a virtue hard to learn, but it has many advantages.

 

[Jenna]

To me, MA is as simple as "send bad guys to hell, keep good guys on earth".

how can you be sure some one does not think of you as one of those bad guys?