Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[K-man]

I am running out of credit. Are these going to be oblique kicks or side kicks breaking knees in a high percentage manner or are they going to be round kick dropping someone as part of a cumulative process.

I have mentioned kicks to the knee hurt like the dickens.

If you freeze frame at 15.07 it is a thigh kick, not the knee.

 

[Zero]

Yer knee can reach its "engineering design basis usage life," of about 44....and you can just keep on living with knees that get worse, and worse-without being "messed up." It really, really, sucks.

Sorry, feelin' my knees today, just tellin' me and anyone who watches me walk or get up that I'm gettin' older....

hey! Do what my dad has done and get new artificial knee replacements, he was in a motor bike crash and damaged both knees very badly, hit by a car and sandwiched into the footpath. he went from being a keen hiker and hunter to spending years with stuffed knees, he finally got both replaced at different times (about a year apart) and each took about 6 months recovery (the left 6 months, the right a bit more, it was tender until about 9 months). he has not looked back since and is now totally active and going up those hills again. look into it!

 

[Zero]

If you freeze frame at 15.07 it is a thigh kick, not the knee.

You might be right K-man, I didn't freeze frame. I'm Ice-Cold but I never Freeze Up. I'm Zero.

 

[Zero]

I just spent 4 weeks training with a k1 fighter. Young ben here.

What's your point? Are you saying your four weeks has proven to you that you can't take someone down with one kick to the knee or that the knee cannot be "broken" (I prefer "folded/stuffed") with one kick to the side?

I have spent over twenty years in styles that have heavy focus on kicking, close to fifteen years where kicking to legs is a focus and competed nationally and in local karate, muay thai and kickboxing (and MMA) tournaments for close to ten years. I have trained under a seven times national champion, who has fought in Asia and Thailand and I have also trained with the guy that trained with Peter Aerts (K1 legend) in London.

Notice we have moved off science to sometimes. I am more than happy to say knees will buckle under kicks sometimes rather than ever tell people they will buckle a knee due to x force times magic dogma.

Science is sometimes a sometimes thing my friend. I don't know who told you on here that "if you kick any guy in the knee with Y x Z force it will break, every time ", if they did, they must have been yanking your chain.

 

[Zero]

Round kicks to the knee are a common strike.

Have you broken a guys knee or not?

It was a bit unclear in that post.

I have taken several guys out of fights with one round house to the side of knee. I guess I had buckled or torn or strained their ligaments but don't know if that equates to "break" for you. Also, I never went over to them or followed up and asked, "hey buddy, hey, did I break your knee in that fight?" I am not a fkn lunatic.

But am the first to admit that I have won more fights with repeated hits to the same knee by attrition. It's not me that has been going on about "breaking", as I said before, I find the definition/concept of "breaking" a knee quite difficult because of the various parts to the knee.

I have had my own knee hurt badly with ligaments being damaged by one hit to the outside of my knee as I said before. I couldn't fight after that for three months and it really took about a good year of rehab before it was solid again and I could fight with confidence and load it with weight etc such as with squats and deadlifts.

 

[Zero]

Except that I have done dislocations in class and tournaments. Not on purpose of course, but it has happened due to partners spazzing out, or trying to fight through an arm or leg lock. Further, those dislocations were done without much force on my part once the lock was secured. So yeah, I have actual experience dislocating and breaking limbs and joints.

Now, the issue is can you break a knee under severe pressure if you've never ever done it before. I believe that you can, but you have a higher chance of not pulling it off than crippling someone with a leg kick on your first and second try.

Uhh, how many dislocations in class - or tournaments, that is - are we talking about? Hey, bad injuries happen and it can be hard to avoid if your partner or opponent "has a spaz", whatever that means...but sounds like you may have a control issue. Don't get me wrong, I have hurt people in this situation too but I try to avoid it, not sure it sounds like you are... You say "partners" spazzing out. That implies to me a class mate rather than a tournament opponent, I may be wrong. Are you saying that in class, if some "partner" is trying to fight through a lock where damage is going to result and imminently, you continue to hold it or crank it up and so a dislocation or tear occurs? Sounds pretty crazy to me!

What level and where are your tournaments being held were you are also doing these dislocations where opponents are seeking to work through a lock or arm bar? From my experience as a judoka and from freestyle and mma fighting, if a guy is not tapping out and you have control, the ump normally comes in and breaks up and awards the point or fight to avoid a break. You are either fighting in some **** back alley tournament or alternatively at the highest level where the ump (sometimes) is leaving it down to the opponent to tap or snap, where that thing is going on, form my experience.

 

[Jenna]

Yes.

I know a few street fighters. And if you engage in enough violence eventually you are going to get bashed.

The better street fighters I have met are philosophical about it.

I think it frees your mind from doubt a bit and allows you to act a bit more.

Agreed! Can you say what is it about our MA practices that cause us to deny to ourselves the possibility you have noted.. that one day we might get beat -and- it MAY be the fault of our unacknowledged short comings?? Jxx

 

[Jenna]

Thanks folks, very interesting question Jenna, might be well worth a thread of its own, I would eagerly read it.
Interesting thoughts by all, Jenna, Elder999 and by Drop Bear. Thank you all for posting. Can you expand the thoughts a bit?

Thanks again and thank you in advance,
Regards
Brian King

With further thought, I think the notion of humility would be less a pillar and more a "meta pillar" if that make any sense.. Given that there are specified pillars, humility I feel would be requisite in troubleshooting the potential failures by conceding and accepting limitations in 1. our art, 2. our practice of that art and 3. our personal physiology that they can be worked on, worked around or compensated for in some other way.. Jxxx

 

[Hanzou]

Uhh, how many dislocations in class - or tournaments, that is - are we talking about?

6 total. 4 in class, 2 in tournaments, and quite a few near misses where muscles were pulled. This isn't including choke outs which is quite a bit higher.

Hey, bad injuries happen and it can be hard to avoid if your partner or opponent "has a spaz", whatever that means...but sounds like you may have a control issue. Don't get me wrong, I have hurt people in this situation too but I try to avoid it, not sure it sounds like you are... You say "partners" spazzing out. That implies to me a class mate rather than a tournament opponent, I may be wrong. Are you saying that in class, if some "partner" is trying to fight through a lock where damage is going to result and imminently, you continue to hold it or crank it up and so a dislocation or tear occurs? Sounds pretty crazy to me!

Actually both tournament breaks was from spazzing. I had the lock, and my opponents tried to get out of it, dislocating their own joints in the process. In class it tended to happen while rolling. When I was less experienced, I wouldn't release an arm bar or shoulder lock until I felt or heard a tap. A few guys were trying to tough it out and not submit, and they got hurt in the process. It's personally ever happened to me because I'm smart enough to tap when I know someone has a lock and is applying pressure. There's no reason to try to fight through a perfect lock, especially if we're just practicing in class.

Of course now that I'm more experienced, if I feel that someone isn't going to tap I release and simply transition to something else.

What level and where are your tournaments being held were you are also doing these dislocations where opponents are seeking to work through a lock or arm bar? From my experience as a judoka and from freestyle and mma fighting, if a guy is not tapping out and you have control, the ump normally comes in and breaks up and awards the point or fight to avoid a break. You are either fighting in some **** back alley tournament or alternatively at the highest level where the ump (sometimes) is leaving it down to the opponent to tap or snap, where that thing is going on, form my experience.

Both occurred years ago when I was a white belt competing in local Bjj tournaments. I don't know how the rules in your sporting events work, but a ref isn't going to stop a match because they "think" someone has a lock on someone if the other guy is still fighting through the lock. Could you imagine the carp storm if a guy lost because the ref "thought" he was caught in an unescapable arm bar or leg lock?

BTW, Thanks for giving me yet another reason to not compete in Judo tournaments.

Check out the web, there's plenty of vids of people getting their limbs broken at Bjj/Grappling tournaments. No one does it on purpose, it's simply the nature of the sport.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed! Can you say what is it about our MA practices that cause us to deny to ourselves the possibility you have noted.. that one day we might get beat -and- it MAY be the fault of our unacknowledged short comings?? Jxx

It is a dichotomy.
you do martial arts precisely because you don't want to get beat up. So it is easy to build up this fear of loosing and loosing face. Or loosing and being crippled or killed.

Some of the training practices that enforce this life or death fight mode I think contributes to binding people into a bit of a knot.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So where are we getting these figures from? I mean if you are going for a knee break you probably want the science to be accurate and not dependent on angle.

If you read and or understood my first post on this you would already know and this question would not be necessary....

 

[drop bear]

If you read and or understood my first post on this you would already know and this question would not be necessary....

Which could have been re posted with exactly the same effort as your above reply.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The OP has asked to move back to topic so let's do that!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Which could have been re posted with exactly the same effort as your above reply.

which could have been read by you in the first place and then there would have been no need for this silliness at all

 

[Xue Sheng]

The OP has asked to move back to topic so let's do that!

Which was my goal way back at post #170, but there are those on MT these days that seem to take over every single post with their own agenda, silliness and condescension....you know...trolls

 

[RTKDCMB]

I have mentioned kicks to the knee hurt like the dickens.

How much does getting kicked in the dickens hurt?

 

[RTKDCMB]

The broken shin thing is a lot creepier and will put you down a lot faster.

And hurts like hell.

 

[Zero]

6 total. 4 in class, 2 in tournaments, and quite a few near misses where muscles were pulled. This isn't including choke outs which is quite a bit higher.



Actually both tournament breaks was from spazzing. I had the lock, and my opponents tried to get out of it, dislocating their own joints in the process. In class it tended to happen while rolling. When I was less experienced, I wouldn't release an arm bar or shoulder lock until I felt or heard a tap. A few guys were trying to tough it out and not submit, and they got hurt in the process. It's personally ever happened to me because I'm smart enough to tap when I know someone has a lock and is applying pressure. There's no reason to try to fight through a perfect lock, especially if we're just practicing in class.

Of course now that I'm more experienced, if I feel that someone isn't going to tap I release and simply transition to something else.




Both occurred years ago when I was a white belt competing in local Bjj tournaments. I don't know how the rules in your sporting events work, but a ref isn't going to stop a match because they "think" someone has a lock on someone if the other guy is still fighting through the lock. Could you imagine the carp storm if a guy lost because the ref "thought" he was caught in an unescapable arm bar or leg lock?

BTW, Thanks for giving me yet another reason to not compete in Judo tournaments.

Check out the web, there's plenty of vids of people getting their limbs broken at Bjj/Grappling tournaments. No one does it on purpose, it's simply the nature of the sport.

Maybe watch some UFC, it's what you guys seem to reference for being representative of reality, there are so so so many times, and going years back, when the ref has jumped in and stopped the fight on arm bars/locks or strike pummelling, ground and pounds etc. Maybe you guys are so tough the ref never gets involved, huh? Joke.

 

[Zero]

How much does getting kicked in the dickens hurt?

I know a fella got kicked in the dickens once, now he goes round with only a "ens".

 

[Zero]

BTW, Thanks for giving me yet another reason to not compete in Judo tournaments.

never expected you to, you're clearly too "deadly" for them.