Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[elder999]

Sorry where is the knee not a legal target in mma?

Yeah, my bad..I've actually seen a couple in MMA, now that I think about it....

Nice vid by the way.

Yeah, an oldie but a goodie....

 

[Zero]

DropBear:

Check out 4:23 and 5:00 below (Andy Hug, the late great, is a legend)

Check out 15:07

Respect

 

[drop bear]

Not sure how good yours is either since googlefu brings in a range from 15lbs to 30lbs of pressure to break a knee, but this all depends on the angle the knee is hit. The 15 to 30 number apperaees to be straight on from a front kick. Now 15 to 30 is quite a range and I am still looking for a site or source I consider reputable before I unequivocally state it is this many pounds of pressure. But I believe the average kick can deliver more that 15 to 30 pounds of pressure to the knee

At least we have moved on from force.

 

[drop bear]

DropBear:

Check out 4:23 and 5:00 below (Andy Hug, the late great, is a legend)

Check out 15:07

Respect

I am running out of credit. Are these going to be oblique kicks or side kicks breaking knees in a high percentage manner or are they going to be round kick dropping someone as part of a cumulative process.

I have mentioned kicks to the knee hurt like the dickens.

 

[Steve]

Not sure how good yours is either since googlefu brings in a range from 15lbs to 30lbs of pressure to break a knee, but this all depends on the angle the knee is hit. The 15 to 30 number apperaees to be straight on from a front kick. Now 15 to 30 is quite a range and I am still looking for a site or source I consider reputable before I unequivocally state it is this many pounds of pressure. But I believe the average kick can deliver more that 15 to 30 pounds of pressure to the knee

I think that there are two different things being said here.

While it may be technically true that the knee will break if struck by a range of 15 to 30 lbs of pressure, it's also true that it's a lot harder to do this against someone than one might think. As drop bear pointed out, knees are not off limits within MMA and are a common target, yet I can't think of a time when I've seen the knee buckle. This doesn't mean it can't happen, but does suggest that it's not as easy to do as it may seem.

 

[elder999]

At least we have moved on from force.

Not really. Pressure can be the exertion of a force divided by the area of the object the force is exerted upon. Force is a vector quantity, in that it has magnitude as well as direction: mass times acceleration-that speaks of a relative motion's ability to displace an object, or change its state of motion. A force can cause a body to move, stop, or change direction-think of breaking as changing direction, or moving, or both.....

Pressure, on the other hand, is a scalar quantity-not having direction, in most instances, only magnitude. Thus, we can think of atmospheric pressure as exerting a downward force, but it's a constant force depending upon altitude that causes it-that area portion is the important part in the pressure thing: if we can exert the same force that results X newtons per square meter onto a smaller area we will have greater results-that is to say, more apparent pressure.

Thusly, when we speak of moving bodies, and the breaking of objects, we really speak almost exclusively of force, rather than pressure-though we may quantify the magnitude of a blow by "pressure" (most gyms typically lacking the equipment to measure both acceleration and pressure), ultimately, when one speaks of the "pressure" required to break a bone, that pressure corresponds to a commensurate "force" with three variables, really:

Just how fast can you hit?
What is the area of the target? and
How much equivalent mass can you deliver to the target?

The "how fast," and the "mass" part give us force. The "area" gives us pressure. Generally, we have no control over the area of the target itself, only the weapon delivering it-we have almost all the control over mass and acceleration...or, force.

Short answer: without force there is no pressure.

I

While it may be technically true that the knee will break if struck by a range of 15 to 30 lbs of pressure, it's also true that it's a lot harder to do this against someone than one might think. As drop bear pointed out, knees are not off limits within MMA and are a common target, yet I can't think of a time when I've seen the knee buckle. This doesn't mean it can't happen, but does suggest that it's not as easy to do as it may seem.

The ring is not "self-defense" which is what this thread is about,and you can't wear steel-toed boots in there, either....

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think that there are two different things being said here.

While it may be technically true that the knee will break if struck by a range of 15 to 30 lbs of pressure, it's also true that it's a lot harder to do this against someone than one might think. As drop bear pointed out, knees are not off limits within MMA and are a common target, yet I can't think of a time when I've seen the knee buckle. This doesn't mean it can't happen, but does suggest that it's not as easy to do as it may seem.

That is a front kick straight to the knee, and to throw in a Taiji term, with intent to break. Depending on the angle of the kick the amount of pressure needed changes

 

[Zero]

I am running out of credit. Are these going to be oblique kicks or side kicks breaking knees in a high percentage manner or are they going to be round kick dropping someone as part of a cumulative process.

You have all the credit you want, I just topped you up. I can take you down in the ring or on the street with one hit to your knee just as likely as you can get a hold on and submit me in the ring or in the street. Depends what you mean by "break" too, that's an interesting matter given the many components of the knee and different parts to be damaged, it's not just like "breaking" an arm. You can definitely fold a knee with a hit to side in one go so your opponent/assailent hits the ground. I am often wearing work boots on the street and to and from work and if I catch you with them or my shin you will fold or lose a lot of mobility on that side, you might even just start crying there and then. : (
: ) : )

I have mentioned kicks to the knee hurt like the dickens.

I missed that, good for you!

 

[Zero]

I think that there are two different things being said here.

While it may be technically true that the knee will break if struck by a range of 15 to 30 lbs of pressure, it's also true that it's a lot harder to do this against someone than one might think. As drop bear pointed out, knees are not off limits within MMA and are a common target, yet I can't think of a time when I've seen the knee buckle. This doesn't mean it can't happen, but does suggest that it's not as easy to do as it may seem.

Start paying attention to a real man's sport like K1, you'll see numerous fellas go down with the one hit to the knee. Sure, sometimes it is after several hits, sometimes just the one well timed and placed hit. There is almost nothing sweeter than timing your shin impact as to exactly when your opponent places/transfers their weight on their lead leg, it's a beautiful, sickenning thing.

I simply cannot believe you guys think an effective knee hit is a difficult thing, compared to any other option you may or may not have.

 

[Steve]

Start paying attention to a real man's sport like K1, you'll see numerous fellas go down with the one hit to the knee. Sure, sometimes it is after several hits, sometimes just the one well timed and placed hit. There is almost nothing sweeter than timing your shin impact as to exactly when your opponent places/transfers their weight on their lead leg, it's a beautiful, sickenning thing.

I simply cannot believe you guys think an effective knee hit is a difficult thing, compared to any other option you may or may not have.

Zero, i don't think I'm saying anything too extreme here. If anything, I'm trying to suggest that there is a healthy middle ground between the two extreme positions being discussed. In other words, if there is a spectrum where on one end is "tap the knee at 15lbs and it shatters, easy peasy" and on the other is, "the knee is impossible to ever hit with enough force to break it, never ever" there is room in the middle to suggest that while 15 lbs of pressure might do it, getting that perfect shot is more difficult than it sounds. AND, your chances of hitting it when you want/need to are much improved if you train with pressure and some amount of reasonable resistance.

 

[Hanzou]

Uhh, I think we are agreeing here? I have many years submission experience so this submission stuff and its dynamics ain't new to me.

My point is, and was, that, if you can do a submission tech right in class, you can take it all the way in reality to a break/tear/choke-out. And so, Hanzou's concern that a dislocation in real life is not much of a possibility for someone that has not already dislocated someone's limb previously does not stack up in my view.

Are we friends and agreeing here or are we totally out of sorts on this one?

Except that I have done dislocations in class and tournaments. Not on purpose of course, but it has happened due to partners spazzing out, or trying to fight through an arm or leg lock. Further, those dislocations were done without much force on my part once the lock was secured. So yeah, I have actual experience dislocating and breaking limbs and joints.

Now, the issue is can you break a knee under severe pressure if you've never ever done it before. I believe that you can, but you have a higher chance of not pulling it off than crippling someone with a leg kick on your first and second try.

 

[Buka]

I can't think of many things worse than getting your knee messed up. It really sucks.

 

[elder999]

I can't think of many things worse than getting your knee messed up. It really sucks.

Yer knee can reach its "engineering design basis usage life," of about 44....and you can just keep on living with knees that get worse, and worse-without being "messed up." It really, really, sucks.

Sorry, feelin' my knees today, just tellin' me and anyone who watches me walk or get up that I'm gettin' older....

 

[drop bear]

That is a front kick straight to the knee, and to throw in a Taiji term, with intent to break. Depending on the angle of the kick the amount of pressure needed changes

So where are we getting these figures from? I mean if you are going for a knee break you probably want the science to be accurate and not dependent on angle.

And so leads me to another pillar. Have an escape route. From the small moments when the knee kick does not do what should have happened because science and you are now looking at a right cross coming back at you to knowing the fire exits in your local shopping center.

 

[drop bear]

I can't think of many things worse than getting your knee messed up. It really sucks.

The broken shin thing is a lot creepier and will put you down a lot faster.

Ironically that can be a knee vs kick dynamic.

 

[drop bear]

Start paying attention to a real man's sport like K1, you'll see numerous fellas go down with the one hit to the knee. Sure, sometimes it is after several hits, sometimes just the one well timed and placed hit. There is almost nothing sweeter than timing your shin impact as to exactly when your opponent places/transfers their weight on their lead leg, it's a beautiful, sickenning thing.

I simply cannot believe you guys think an effective knee hit is a difficult thing, compared to any other option you may or may not have.

I just spent 4 weeks training with a k1 fighter. Young ben here.

Notice we have moved off science to sometimes. I am more than happy to say knees will buckle under kicks sometimes rather than ever tell people they will buckle a knee due to x force times magic dogma.

 

[elder999]

n ever tell people they will buckle a knee due to x force times magic dogma.

You do know what I do for a living, dontcha?

(And you should note, I never really ascribed any particular "X" value to knees......that's kinda variable, depending on position, mass of the person exerted on the knee,bone density, the condition of the knee, angles and motion....if, however, you can deliver a kick that exceeds all knees...well, people can't exactly build up their knees, can they?)

 

[Brian King]

So a pillar might be learn anatomy and do not rely on anything or anybody?

I know that the knee cap is an excellent target for sword or shovel, not as in smashing but rather in 'separating' just a little. Not a lot holding it in place. I think that a lot of SD folks target the knee as it is vulnerable, and even a poorly connected contact slows down the 'attacker' allowing maneuver and escape percentages to increase.

I second reading the 7 pillars book. Tragic life but well lived.

Back to subject please?

Brian

 

[drop bear]

You do know what I do for a living, dontcha?

(And you should note, I never really ascribed any particular "X" value to knees......that's kinda variable, depending on position, mass of the person exerted on the knee,bone density, the condition of the knee, angles and motion....if, however, you can deliver a kick that exceeds all knees...well, people can't exactly build up their knees, can they?)

Hey the last time I guessed professional pole dancer ii got in trouble so I will just say no.

Physio,s think you can build up knees.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. Speaking of ben. One of his was hit with power. Make your strikes dangerous and respected.

He has mentioned that he has tippy tapped his way to a draw where he could have achieved a victory.

Looking at the video the method has merit.