Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[Hanzou]

You shouldn't even go there, son..

It's likely that before you were born, and long before the world knew who Royce and Rorion Gracie were, I'd kicked out at least three knees, just for the pleasure of watching the people who belonged to them scream and crawl on the floor.....seriously.....

.....before I stomped on them, and, sometimes, took their wallets....

Wow, you can't tell the difference between me using a general example, and speaking about you specifically. Amazing!

In any case, like I said, it's physics: we knew we could land a man on the moon and bring him home, before we launched Apollo 11. Human bodies just aren't that different.

Yeah, but were we better at landing men on the moon the first time we did it, or the third time we did it?

Nope. Kano Jigoro never really intended to relegate strikes to kata-it just worked out that way before he died-he died trying to work it out, and, during WWII, judo shiai included strikes.....you're just wrong about this, like so many other things....more to the point, I know I can strike someone in the throat and watch them choke, not because I have (and I have) but because of physics, and human anatomy.

The striking techniques of judo are never practiced outside of kata as forceful or improper technique could lead to serious injuries or death.

Atemi-Waza

Oh who to believe.......

 

[elder999]

Yeah, but were we better at landing men on the moon the first time we did it, or the third time we did it?

How about this: no.

As in, No, we weren't better at alanding men on the moon the first time we did it, or the third time we did it.
Think about it.....

Atemi-Waza

Oh who to believe.......

Look up the Dai Nippon Butokukai, WWII, and judo....I'll wait-take your time.

 

[Hanzou]

How about this: no.

As in, No, we weren't better at alanding men on the moon the first time we did it, or the third time we did it.
Think about it.....

So we learned nothing about landing on the moon between Apollo 11-17? Interesting.

Look up the Dai Nippon Butokukai, WWII, and judo....I'll wait-take your time.

It would be a waste of time, since it's not relevant. The relevant point is that an individual who can perform a technique safely, can do that technique over and over again and become proficient at it. You simply can't say the same for dangerous or crippling techniques like knee dislocations from a stamping kick.

 

[elder999]

So we learned nothing about landing on the moon between Apollo 11-17? Interesting.

Well, no, no we didn't-we basically did the same thing over and over again, on different parts of the moon, and sometimes with a car.

Apparently, we left the keys in the car, 'cause we're the only ones going back...

It would be a waste of time, since it's not relevant. The relevant point is that an individual who can perform a technique safely, can do that technique over and over again and become proficient at it. You simply can't say the same for dangerous or crippling techniques like knee dislocations from a stamping kick.

But it is relevant, because-as I've pointed out repeatedly since your arrival on planet Martialtalk-it happens every day: cops and civilians shoot people, to death, without ever having shot anyone. Untrained civilians disarm armed robbers. Martial artists kick the asses off of assailants.....etc., etc., etc.....you're just wrong, actually-it's kind of amusing. Point is, you can practice a technique to proficiency without executing it to completion. ....write that down:proficiency without execution to completion true of every killing technique anyone in any martial art ever learned....

....or did you think samurai actually cut each other's heads off for practice?

 

[Hanzou]

But it is relevant, because-as I've pointed out repeatedly since your arrival on planet Martialtalk-it happens every day: cops and civilians shoot people, to death, without ever having shot anyone. Untrained civilians disarm armed robbers. Martial artists kick the asses off of assailants.....etc., etc., etc.....you're just wrong, actually-it's kind of amusing. Point is, you can practice a technique to proficiency without executing it to completion. ....write that down:proficiency without execution to completion true of every killing technique anyone in any martial art ever learned....

That's quite a load of crap. That's like saying a Bjj practitioner who never rolls, and only does solo drills would be as proficient as a practitioner who rolls consistently. Or it would be like saying a Judoka who does nothing but kata would be as proficient in throwing someone as a Judoka that is actually participating in randori and actually throwing people.

When the time comes to fight with their abilities, its highly doubtful that they'd be able to execute them properly. Much less be able to execute them as well as their peers who have actually executed their techniques against live opponents. To suggest otherwise is utter and complete nonsense.

 

[Chrisoro]

That's quite a load of crap. That's like saying a Bjj practitioner who never rolls, and only does solo drills would be as proficient as a practitioner who rolls consistently.

No need for strawmen. I think what he is saying is more like saying a BJJ practitioner who never rolls, but only train partner drills in a controlled and safe fashion, would still likely be able to dislocate an elbow with an armbar in a self defense situation, despite never doing so in practice. Ofcourse, he wouldn't be as proficient as if he also sparred, but while sparring is definately a very good tool for increasing proficiency, especially against trained opponents fighting the same way as you do, it's not the only way to gain some proficiency, nor is it a requirement to be able to use your techniques in the real world.

I won my first two SW matches (in the beginners division, but still) about ten years ago, after only a little more than three months of Judo, and with practically no ne-waza randori prior to this, as they didn't want the whitebelts to focus on the ground game at all. Yet, the small amount of drilling I did with a pal after regular training of basic ground techniques, from some BJJ basics instructional video, let me win both of my first two matches by submissions I never learned anywhere else than from video. Is it probable that I would have done a lot better if I had rolled a lot during those three months! Of course. But did the lack of any ground sparring at all make it impossible for me to apply the techniques I had been drilling from video instruction, against resisting opponents in a competition setting? No.

 

[Hanzou]

No need for strawmen. I think what he is saying is more like saying a BJJ practitioner who never rolls, but only train partner drills in a controlled and safe fashion, would still likely be able to dislocate an elbow with an armbar in a self defense situation, despite never doing so in practice. Ofcourse, he wouldn't be as proficient as if he also sparred, but while sparring is definately a very good tool for increasing proficiency, especially against trained opponents fighting the same way as you do, it's not the only way to gain some proficiency, nor is it a requirement to be able to use your techniques in the real world.

I won my first two SW matches (in the beginners division, but still) about ten years ago, after only a little more than three months of Judo, and with practically no ne-waza randori prior to this, as they didn't want the whitebelts to focus on the ground game at all. Yet, the small amount of drilling I did with a pal after regular training of basic ground techniques, from some BJJ basics instructional video, let me win both of my first two matches by submissions I never learned anywhere else than from video. Is it probable that I would have done a lot better if I had rolled a lot during those three months! Of course. But did the lack of any ground sparring at all make it impossible for me to apply the techniques I had been drilling from video instruction, against resisting opponents in a competition setting? No.

Well this argument sprung from an argument between RTKDCMB and myself about this woman fighting back. RTKD suggested that she could use a stamping kick followed up by a knife hand to the throat. I suggested a takedown followed by a variety of possibilities. We then proceeded to point out the flaws in each other's approaches, and one of the flaws I pointed out in his approach is that (considering this woman is suddenly some sort of Karate master) she would have never actually kicked out a knee, or severely struck someone in the neck with a knife hand. Thus, she would be in a worst position than if she had taken a Bjj/MMA program where she actually performed takedowns and finishers against larger opponents.

I have no issue believing that through a high amount of repetition you can eventually become proficient. However, actually doing the act makes you MORE proficient than the person who has never done the act before. In that woman's situation, being proficient through experience and repetition would have been better than (possibly) being proficient through repetition alone.

 

[Tgace]

IMO, SD is 95% lifestyle and 5% physically fighting. How you live, where you live, who you hang with and what you do will always be your primary risk factors.

Sure ANYONE can be attacked ANYWHERE. Just like anyone can be struck by lightening anywhere...but if you decide to erect a steel flagpole on a hilltop while thunderheads are approaching...well.....

 

[RTKDCMB]

Except for the fact that she would be significantly trained, and have plenty of experience performing that technique against a wide variety of people.

So she would be significantly rained if she did BJJ but not in a striking art?

Just curious; How many times have you actually dislocated your classmate's knee with a side kick? How many times have you slammed your bladed hand into your classmate's neck after you dislocated their knee?

I don't need too that's why we train. There are a many things that people in my art have never done fulll contact on an attacker before but still managed to do it when it was required. I had never kneed someone in the ribs from a half kneeling position before (I had never even practiced it from that position before) but I did it, breaking several of his ribs, but I did it when I needed to.

because you guys don't even spar

I must have been sleep walking all those years.

then you've never actually done that technique. You have a hypothesis of what you believe will happen if you're in the position to do X and he's doing Y. You have no concept of the various effects that your attack would have depending on body type, weight, height, power, etc.

Which is why WE DO SPAR.

On the other hand, I've actually done minor inner hooks on people hundreds of times. I've done modifications, I've done proper technique, I've done combinations if the person doesn't fall the way I want them to, I've even done them in MMA gyms where the guy is punching and kicking me. I've done them against big guys, little guys, women, young, old, etc.

And you have done all of those on violent attackers in the street?

That's the difference. There's hypothesis and theory, and there's application. If you've never really applied the technique, you can't speak to its effectiveness. You simply have a model of what its supposed to look like.

Yes I can because I have intelligence and years of experience performing many techniques.

considering this woman is suddenly some sort of Karate master

Or some sort of BJJ or MMA expert.

she would have never actually kicked out a knee, or severely struck someone in the neck with a knife hand.

Unless she was trained properly. I suspect you have never been on the receiving end of a proper knifehand on a pad.

I have no issue believing that through a high amount of repetition you can eventually become proficient. However, actually doing the act makes you MORE proficient than the person who has never done the act before. In that woman's situation, being proficient through experience and repetition would have been better than (possibly) being proficient through repetition alone.

You have no idea how we actually train, you have a hypothesis only.

 

[Hanzou]

So she would be significantly rained if she did BJJ but not in a striking art?

Given the TKD/Karate schools in her area versus the Bjj/MMA schools in her area, yes.

I don't need too that's why we train. There are a many things that people in my art have never done fulll contact on an attacker before but still managed to do it when it was required. I had never kneed someone in the ribs from a half kneeling position before (I had never even practiced it from that position before) but I did it, breaking several of his ribs, but I did it when I needed to.

Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence.

I must have been sleep walking all those years.

Which is why WE DO SPAR.

My mistake. I remember you discussing that the philosophy of your school was no-contact sparring.

And you have done all of those on violent attackers in the street?

I have, more than I care to think about. But again, anecdotal evidence means nothing. We should look at the people who perform the art and using their abilities in a SD situation.

Unless she was trained properly. I suspect you have never been on the receiving end of a proper knifehand on a pad.

I've been on the receiving in of plenty of karate black belt techniques. Few impress me.

You have no idea how we actually train, you have a hypothesis only.

You're in Australia, so I'll agree with that. I'm talking about an American woman dealing with how TMA/Karate/TKD are generally taught in America.

 

[Drose427]

Given the TKD/Karate schools in her area versus the Bjj/MMA schools in her area, yes.




Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence.



My mistake. I remember you discussing that the philosophy of your school was no-contact sparring.




I have, more than I care to think about. But again, anecdotal evidence means nothing. We should look at the people who perform the art and using their abilities in a SD situation.




I've been on the receiving in of plenty of karate black belt techniques. Few impress me.



You're in Australia, so I'll agree with that. I'm talking about an American woman dealing with how TMA/Karate/TKD are generally taught in America.

And youre such an expert of TMA's XD

Must be why you had to have bunkai explained to you, Thought newaza was all but cut out of judo (when kano still regularly taught it and his second treated it as one of the most important parts), assume KArate styles took anything from kickboxing, been shown a million different clips and articles of people using TMAS in SD etc.

At one point Hanzou, you need to stop putting your foot in your mouth and attacking anything that isnt MMA/BJJ and just admit you dont know jack about TMA'S XD

 

[Hanzou]

And youre such an expert of TMA's XD

Must be why you had to have bunkai explained to you,

Mostly because its BS. I just wanted to hear what you guys believed it was.

Thought newaza was all but cut out of judo (when kano still regularly taught it and his second treated it as one of the most important parts),

Judo isn't a TMA, and I never said that newaza was all but cut out of Judo.

assume KArate styles took anything from kickboxing,

Didn't Elder even admit that Kyokushin took techniques from Muay Thai?

Oh, and Kyokushin isn't a TMA either.

At one point Hanzou, you need to stop putting your foot in your mouth and attacking anything that isnt MMA/BJJ and just admit you dont know jack about TMA'S XD

Well based on your post above, your main gripe about my posts has nothing to do with TMAs in the first place.

 

[Drose427]

Mostly because its BS. I just wanted to hear what you guys believed it was.



Judo isn't a TMA, and I never said that newaza was all but cut out of Judo.



Didn't Elder even admit that Kyokushin took techniques from Muay Thai?

Oh, and Kyokushin isn't a TMA either.



Well based on your post above, your main gripe about my posts has nothing to do with TMAs in the first place.

lol.

Thats why you didnt even know bunkai wasnt kata?

Judo is a TMA...

Not sure how you think it isnt XD

And no, Elder didnt say that but youre not known for paying attention XD

If you go back and look, he said Japanese Kickboxing (not kyokushin, but hey again, you dont pay much attention to what we explain to you) took the leg as a TARGET. But were still blatantly doing karate XD

And You've always said anytime someone bring up Judo that Kano never liked it and just ignored it XD

Apparently according to you nothings a TMA XD

Either way I didnt say TMA's I said Karate Styles, which they still didnt take anything from Kickboxing XD

 

[Jenna]

This was a good thread with informative posts for some one like me who could do with it.. Surely yall have thoughts or some thing more useful, helpful or beneficial to contribute to the "pillars of Self Defence" idea than this? Not aimed anywhere in particular and but I do not know who is benefitting from this ***** in the middle of what was a decent thread???

 

[Steve]

lol.

Thats why you didnt even know bunkai wasnt kata?

Judo is a TMA...

Not sure how you think it isnt XD

And no, Elder didnt say that but youre not known for paying attention XD

If you go back and look, he said Japanese Kickboxing (not kyokushin, but hey again, you dont pay much attention to what we explain to you) took the leg as a TARGET. But were still blatantly doing karate XD

And You've always said anytime someone bring up Judo that Kano never liked it and just ignored it XD

Apparently according to you nothings a TMA XD

Either way I didnt say TMA's I said Karate Styles, which they still didnt take anything from Kickboxing XD

What is this XD that you add to every line? I don't get it.

To both you and Hanzou, regarding TMA, is BJJ a TMA? You guys are arguing about what is and isn't a TMA, which is a topic that has come up several times in the past around here. Just curious what you guys are using as a measure for whether a style is or isn't a TMA.

 

[Drose427]

What is this XD that you add to every line? I don't get it.

To both you and Hanzou, regarding TMA, is BJJ a TMA? You guys are arguing about what is and isn't a TMA, which is a topic that has come up several times in the past around here. Just curious what you guys are using as a measure for whether a style is or isn't a TMA.

its the non animated equivalent of laughing face

and I have zero Idea what his criteria is, frankly hes not mmaking sense

In a nutshell, for me its an art with some sort of tradition. Be it how the class functions, culture thats kept, curriculum (nit all tmas have kata)

I regard BJJ as a TMA. If you find a traditional BJJ school, you can still find remnants of the Judo/Jujutsu ( Bowing, gi, respect, chain of command, etc.) While many schools are more laid back, thats the school and not the style

 

[Steve]

its the non animated equivalent of laughing face

and I have zero Idea what his criteria is, frankly hes not mmaking sense

In a nutshell, for me its an art with some sort of tradition. Be it how the class functions, culture thats kept, curriculum (nit all tmas have kata)

I regard BJJ as a TMA. If you find a traditional BJJ school, you can still find remnants of the Judo/Jujutsu ( Bowing, gi, respect, chain of command, etc.) While many schools are more laid back, thats the school and not the style

That makes sense and I appreciate the explanation. As I said, there have been many discussions just about this topic. I recommend you take a gander at this thread and consider adding your two cents. For what it's worth, I reread my contribution to that thread and my opinion hasn't changed a bit over the years. I still think I'm right. XD

Regarding the topic here, do you have thoughts on the fundamental pillars of self defense? Sounds like you have an interesting and varied background in wrestling and also some TMA.

 

[Drose427]

That makes sense and I appreciate the explanation. As I said, there have been many discussions just about this topic. I recommend you take a gander at this thread and consider adding your two cents. For what it's worth, I reread my contribution to that thread and my opinion hasn't changed a bit over the years. I still think I'm right. XD

Regarding the topic here, do you have thoughts on the fundamental pillars of self defense? Sounds like you have an interesting and varied background in wrestling and also some TMA.

I'll take a look at those!

And I posted my thoughts on them around page one or two if you cared to take a look!

 

[Steve]

I'll go back and look.

 

[Hanzou]

A traditional martial art is an art that doesn't change after its inception, and adheres to tradition over innovation and improvement. Traditional arts also tend to contain a more complete curriculum, TMAs almost always contain striking, grappling, and traditional weapon training.

Modern martial arts are arts that tend to be eclectic, and are constantly changed to fit the conditions of a modern context. Most of the time they tend to focus on one major aspect, and are often sports. Kendo, Judo, and Karatedo being prime examples.

The sticky point is that there are arts that started off modern, and immediately picked up traditional habits. Or there are arts that like to pretend they are traditional, when in fact they're modern. For some reason, people believe that sport= less effective.