Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[Hanzou]

I dont believe the cops were ever involved XD

Why would you take SD classes from a criminal?

He was also charged with assault in another incident as well

I'm sure if there's evidence of an assault beamed to the Twitter feeds of millions of people, the cops would have investigated right?

LoL @ him being "a criminal" for getting into a fight with a bouncer and snapping the bouncer's arm. How ridiculous. I'm also pretty sure that he doesn't teach the SD classes.

 

[Drose427]

I'm sure if there's evidence of an assault beamed to the Twitter feeds of millions of people, the cops would have investigated right?

LoL @ him being "a criminal" for getting into a fight with a bouncer and snapping the bouncer's arm. How ridiculous. I'm also pretty sure that he doesn't teach the SD classes.

Investigattion and Charging are two different things here bub.

Im sure the cops did investigate, but all the evidence Magically disappeared XD

The whole story sounds insanely fabricated and here people even break down the inaccuracies
Renzo Gracie s fabricated mugger story - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

and yeah......he assaulted a bouncer....thats a violent crime.....making him a criminal.....I know you've got this whole Gracie Idolatry going on, but hes a criminal.

it doesnt matter if hes teaching SD or not, people will train in whatever they want for SD.

Hes a belligerent borderline psychopath,

Thats a bad trait to be teaching anything XD

Edit: Misdemeanor in New York

 

[Hanzou]

Investigattion and Charging are two different things here bub.

Im sure the cops did investigate, but all the evidence Magically disappeared XD

The "evidence" was all over Twitter. Did the two "angels" he supposedly assault disappear as well?

The whole story sounds insanely fabricated and here people even break down the inaccuracies
Renzo Gracie s fabricated mugger story - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

That entire thread can be summed up in the first post:

• Well this was the most pointless thread of the day. Congratulations on wasting X amount of hours of your life that you will never get back.
  [Reply]

and yeah......he assaulted a bouncer....thats a violent crime.....making him a criminal.....I know you've got this whole Gracie Idolatry going on, but hes a criminal.

Idolatry? I simply said he has a great school in Newark NJ, 10 miles from where the woman in the OP got attacked. You and Elder are the ones going crazy because the guy beat up a couple of thugs and tweeted about it. Who cares?

Hes a belligerent borderline psychopath,

Thats a bad trait to be teaching anything XD

LoL! See what I mean?

 

[Drose427]

The "evidence" was all over Twitter. Did the two "angels" he supposedly assault disappear as well?




That entire thread can be summed up in the first post:



Idolatry? I simply said he has a great school in Newark NJ, 10 miles from where the woman in the OP got attacked. You and Elder are the ones going crazy because the guy beat up a couple of thugs and tweeted about it. Who cares?



LoL! See what I mean?

What evidence on twitter? lol

Pics that dont add up (some are day some are noight)

Scraping on his hand that doesnt look like post fight cuts XD

Our point was the entire thing reeks of Bull XD

And if it wasnt,it is aggravated assault XD

Unless now its legal to chase someone across town, choke them out, and beat them after their unconscious XD

 

[Steve]

Alright. I have a question that came up having read two posts in two different threads. Rather than continue to derail that over there, I'm bringing my question to this thread. In the Safest States thread, Tgace did a nice job of explaining how self defense laws tend to work, at least in NY.

If during the course of a "bar fight"...while everyone is on the pavement and still swinging.. you decide to stand up and stomp on the guys head to win the fight. That's going to probably land you in trouble....

If it's deemed reasonable to punch you in a given situation, the damage resulting from that (single) punch isn't really the legal issue in terms of Article 35 in NY.

There is nothing in NY law that supports what you "heard". You would have to show me the incident/case being referred to to get a better answer.

He actually explains it pretty fully over the course of a few threads, but I'm not going to quote them all here. I think the point comes across. The measure is, what would a reasonable person do in the same situation?

In another thread, K-man goes through a progression of techniques. Emphasis is mine.

Can I just clarify. Many of the styles teach a sequence of moves that you might perform in a particular scenario. The simplest of these might be 360 defence of Krav and the other end, the bunkai of a kata like Suparenpei.

So, the first move in Krav to defend against a downward slash with a weapon is 'bursting' or a simultaneous strike to the wrist and neck. If you connect it's game over. If it fails, you overhook the arm and drive the knee repeatedly into the lower abdomen. If that connects it's likely game over but if it fails and we need more we start hitting the back of the neck, assuming he has bent over from the knees. Strikes to the back of the neck or skull with the forearm are likely to knock him down but if they haven't I'll give him a knee in the face. He is a real tough sucker if he hasn't gone down by now but I'm up to the arm lock and disarm at this point. If that fails I'll take him to the ground and kick to the back of the neck.

Against an untrained attacker just how long will he remain a threat? The chances of getting all the way through to the stomp are practically zero.

Similar with karate bunkai. You do the first technique and hopefully it is game over. If not you go to the second and so forth. It is only after a failed technique that you proceed.

Aikido is the same. Something as simple as kote gaeshi is only performed in theory if the punch to the head, inherent in the technique has failed.

What I am saying, in a very roundabout way, is that the 'finishing' technique of a stomp is the last technique in a a sequence of techniques. Hopefully the conflict has resolved well before that, even though the sequence is practised to its conclusion.

In this thread, a common theme is about mindset being critical in self defense. The language above is pretty typical. I'm really not trying to pick on K-man, and am not suggesting that there is wrong or right here. I do think there's an interesting insight into the training mindset of many "self defense" oriented martial arts. The rhetoric says one thing, but the training actually teaches something else. "I do this, and it's likely to be "game over" for the bad guy. But if not, I do this... and then it's game over. But if it's not, I do this." There's a mentality being taught here, along with an overt strategy that stops when the bad guy is... what? Because "game over" speaks to a degree of finality in my mind.

And, I'm not trying to suggest that people are idiotic robots who can't apply discretion in the heat of the moment. I'm just struck by the incongruity between stopping when the bad guy is "game over" and what we're discussing as likely to lead to criminal liability. The two sound a lot alike, to my untrained ear. As described, each technique is designed to take the bad guy out. Punches to the throat, elbows to the back of the head and neck, stomping on the ground. Add other techniques intended to kill or maim (eye gouges, etc), and there's a disconnect here. Isn't there?

 

[elder999]

I
LoL @ him being "a criminal" for getting into a fight with a bouncer and snapping the bouncer's arm.How ridiculous

Depends on where, and it depends on the lawyers just how ridiculous it is-people have gone to jail for less, and with far more justification.

I'm also pretty sure that he doesn't teach the SD classes.

So, take a look at the title of the thread, and consider mention of Renzo Gracie off-topic thread drift, since-despite what you've stated-training with Renzo Gracie would be-by the evidence of his actions, and by your own admission-of no benefit in a self-defense situation.....

 

[K-man]

In another thread, K-man goes through a progression of techniques. Emphasis is mine.

In this thread, a common theme is about mindset being critical in self defense. The language above is pretty typical. I'm really not trying to pick on K-man, and am not suggesting that there is wrong or right here. I do think there's an interesting insight into the training mindset of many "self defense" oriented martial arts. The rhetoric says one thing, but the training actually teaches something else. "I do this, and it's likely to be "game over" for the bad guy. But if not, I do this... and then it's game over. But if it's not, I do this." There's a mentality being taught here, along with an overt strategy that stops when the bad guy is... what? Because "game over" speaks to a degree of finality in my mind.

And, I'm not trying to suggest that people are idiotic robots who can't apply discretion in the heat of the moment. I'm just struck by the incongruity between stopping when the bad guy is "game over" and what we're discussing as likely to lead to criminal liability. The two sound a lot alike, to my untrained ear. As described, each technique is designed to take the bad guy out. Punches to the throat, elbows to the back of the head and neck, stomping on the ground. Add other techniques intended to kill or maim (eye gouges, etc), and there's a disconnect here. Isn't there?

Actually the 360 defence is designed to be simple. There is one 'enter and trap' for a high attack from either side and one 'enter and trap' for a low attack. Those two moves cover the bulk of attacks you are likely to encounter and a lot of the defence against other attacks, such as handgun, end up in the same positions.

Why do you have such difficulty in understanding that we are not training a sport style system and that this system is designed to kill or maim if necessary? You, and others of like mind, keep trying to equate what you do to what I do and one of the others is even more strident in proclaiming that what he does is better than everything. Well that's just not right your can't compare apples with hammers and you can't compare BJJ to Krav, at least in the way you guys are trying to.

If you would like a similar flow diagram for MMA it might be kick to the knee, big punch combination, catch and take down, choke, arm bar. (And please don't tell me it's not what you would do because I don't care. It is purely hypothetical.) So I kick the knee and the the knee collapses. Does your MMA fighter continue fighting and start landing big punches while his opponent is writhing on the ground or has he enough brain left after his brain damaging training to know that the fight is over? But let's say that the kick to the knee doesn't have an effect and the fighter starts punching and knocks the guy out. Are you really suggesting that your MMA guy is now going to jump on him and apply a choke? So now the guy doesn't get knocked out and he is taken to the ground where the MMA fighter has the opportunity for a choke. The opponent passes out, fight over. Are you now seriously suggesting that the MMA guy will grab his arm and apply an arm bar?

What you are saying is either the MMA guys have a brain and the rest of us don't or that the MMA guys don't have a brain either and need a referee to tell them when the fight is over.

Personally I don't see any disconnect. I just see people trying to say that their style of martial art is better than all others. Worse than that, it seems that there are two ways of going about it. One is, "your style is piss weak so it won't work" and now, "your style is over the top and trying to hurt people like that is ridiculous".

We don't need any of that BS. We are all trying to enjoy the martial art or arts that we train. Get a life, let's just discuss things without bagging other styles of training.

 

[Hanzou]

Depends on where, and it depends on the lawyers just how ridiculous it is-people have gone to jail for less, and with far more justification.

And it still wouldn't make him a criminal.

So, take a look at the title of the thread, and consider mention of Renzo Gracie off-topic thread drift, since-despite what you've stated-training with Renzo Gracie would be-by the evidence of his actions, and by your own admission-of no benefit in a self-defense situation.....

It's quite evident that training at Renzos academy would be a huge benefit for self defense by virtue of the fact that the academy in NJ produces excellent jujitsu practicioners, and the fact that jujitsu skills would have highly benefitted that female victim in the OP.

 

[Steve]

Actually it is designed to be simple. The is one enter and trap for a high attack from either side and one enter and trap for a low attack. Those two moves cover the bulk of attacks you are likely to encounter an a lot of the defence against other attacks, such as handgun, end up in the same positions.

Why do you have such difficulty in understanding that we are not training a sport style system and that this system is designed to kill or maim if necessary? You, and others of like mind, keep trying to equate what you do to what I do and one of the others is even more strident in proclaiming that what he does is better than everything. Well that's just not right your can't compare apples with hammers and you can't compare BJJ to Krav, at least in the way you guys are trying to.

Thanks, K-man. I guess i'm just dumb but I don't think you are quite getting my point. I'm not comparing anything to BJJ, so if you think I am, you're completely off base.

If you would like a similar flow diagram for MMA it might be kick to the knee, big punch combination, catch and take down, choke, arm bar. (And please don't tell me it's not what you would do because I don't care. It is purely hypothetical.) So I kick the knee and the the knee collapses. Does your MMA fighter continue fighting and start landing big punches while his opponent is writhing on the ground or has he enough brain left after his brain damaging training to know that the fight is over? But let's say that the kick to the knee doesn't have an effect and the fighter starts punching and knocks the guy out. Are you really suggesting that your MMA guy is now going to jump on him and apply a choke? So now the guy doesn't get knocked out and he is taken to the ground where the MMA fighter has the opportunity for a choke. The opponent passes out, fight over. Are you now seriously suggesting that the MMA guy will grab his arm and apply an arm bar?

I don't think I even mentioned MMA, K-man, and I can assure you I didn't have it in mind. Seriously, I highlighted the language you're using that really is unnecessarily confrontational. I'm just not going to allow you to drag me into the mud with you right now. But I'd be happy to have a discussion with you, if you're mature enough to do so.

What you are saying is either the MMA guys have a brain and the rest of us don't or that the MMA guys don't have a brain either and need a referee to tell them when the fight is over.

Once again, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that at all.
Nope... I went back and checked. I didn't say that at all. I am trying to have a discussion about the disconnect between the self defense mindset discussed several times in this thread and the legality of self defense. Your post in direct contrast to Tgace's post in another thread just got me thinking about it. I'm not attacking you, K-man, and I would appreciate it if you'd reciprocate for once.

Personally I don't see any disconnect. I just see people trying to say that their style of martial art is better than all others. Worse than that, it seems that there are two ways of going about it. One is, "your style is piss weak so it won't work" and now, "your style is over the top and trying to hurt people like that is ridiculous".

Look, if you can't get past your own pettiness here and have a discussion, just kindly recuse yourself. Be a grown up.

We don't need any of that BS. We are all trying to enjoy the martial art or arts that we train. Get a life, let's just discuss things without bagging other styles of training.

Zing... says the guy who's just spent who knows how long bagging on me, on BJJ, and on MMA in a rant that is completely unrelated to my post. Take your own advice, k-man and stop trying to derail the thread.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

And it still wouldn't make him a criminal.

It's quite evident that training at Renzos academy would be a huge benefit for self defense by virtue of the fact that the academy in NJ produces excellent jujitsu practicioners, and the fact that jujitsu skills would have highly benefitted that female victim in the OP.

Yes and maybe no. At Renzo's academy you may learn many good techniques which could equate to really good training for personal protection. (maybe not) Yet, if we look at Renzo's history and issues in confrontations he may not be a very good teacher to go to for self-defense knowledge purposes. He may not have the ability to pass on mental knowledge for self-defense based of his "physical" interactions in the past. ie. bar fights, heck he stomped a guy in the cage after a fight, etc. He was by all accounts not able to control himself what makes you think he has the legal knowledge to help his students? Or the ability to pass on making mature judgements?

Renzo Igor and Gregor Gracie Arrested for Alleged Gang Assault in New York City MMAWeekly.com

Now in general really serious self-defense practitioner's try to stay out of areas where people are getting really drunk and doing drugs. (ie. night clubs) They also try to not be out too late as after midnight nothing really good ever happens. Just ask your local law enforcement officer or a bouncer. It always goes down hill when it gets later in the evening and a lot of drunk, testosterone fueled men are left by themselves as the couples, single women, etc. have either hooked up or left. At the end of the night all you have are some drunk guys and a few gals who usually cause as much trouble as the guy's. (ie. they get off on seeing the fight)

I trained with Renzo once and liked him from an teacher point of view in Brazilian Jiujitsu and he would be a good person to learn from for BJJ and MMA. Probably not who I would go to for self-defense skill sets which comprise a lot more than just physical skill sets. Even though he is older I do not think he has the maturity or knowledge that I would want in that department!

 

[ballen0351]

Im late to the party here but in an attempt to get back on the topic here is my opinion

For the start of this exploration (thread drift happens and can be interesting) let’s assumes that the prospective student is married, with small children, and limited training time – say once or twice a week for a year. The kind of attack that she may face, could be assault in a parking garage, road rage, work place violence, domestic abuse, violent robbery, wrong place wrong time violence, and home invasion. Or we can assume that she might be single, so we could add date rape violence, bar/night club violence, woman on woman violence to the list. Attacks against the elderly are brutal as well, and in some areas becoming common place, so we could add healthcare/ nursing home violence to the possible list above.

Ive given alot of thought to this over the last few weeks. I started a new Police Department and had to spend 3 weeks at the police academy. While I was there a new hire class was finishing up there 7 months of training and were about to head out on the street. This class had a record number of females in the class. I was looking at them and several of them were very tiny. One of the woman is 5'00 and 105 pounds. Ive done this job for 15 years and have been in several very violent physical confrontations. Looking at her it is of my opinion no amount of training no matter what style will make her win on the street in most fights so she will need to use other aspects of self defense. She will need to rely heavily on her mind and her tools (taser, OC Spray, gun). Thats not a sexist thing ive know several excellent female officers thats physics. Even the best techniques with the best leverage take some strength to accomplish. Add stress to the equation and technique gets worse. Thats not just for female officers small male officers have the same limitations but on average I generally see smaller females then males. So to take this to a self defense topic smaller people like woman, elderly, teens, smaller males, etc should look more towards tools to help them defend themselves, Im a bigger guy and I carry a gun 90+% of the time. I dont think any pillar that focus on physical resistance regardless of style is effective for alot of people.

This video, taken with a nanny cam captures the violence that is common of assaults against women by men. They are violent and brutal. With this video to start – what do you think should form the ‘fundamentals of self-defense training’ for the women described above? Warning, video is violent.

The fear, stress, and surprise of this attack in my opinion there is no amount of training she could of had short of a professional fighter that would have changed this outcome. 1st many people dont train for an attack in your own house, we are supposed to be safe in our house. Speaking to victims THIS is the worst part of victimization. We let our guards down at home, we feel safe at home so an attack at home can be totally overwhelming. 2nd her child was present so thats an added stress she needed to worry about, 3rd the size difference is a major factor, and 4th the mindset HE is a predator and has that mindset to attack and has no problem hurting people most normal people dont think that way and dont want to hurt anyone.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes and maybe no. At Renzo's academy you may learn many good techniques which could equate to really good training for personal protection. (maybe not) Yet, if we look at Renzo's history and issues in confrontations he may not be a very good teacher to go to for self-defense knowledge purposes. He may not have the ability to pass on mental knowledge for self-defense based of his "physical" interactions in the past. ie. bar fights, heck he stomped a guy in the cage after a fight, etc. He was by all accounts not able to control himself what makes you think he has the legal knowledge to help his students? Or the ability to pass on making mature judgements?

Renzo Igor and Gregor Gracie Arrested for Alleged Gang Assault in New York City MMAWeekly.com

Now in general really serious self-defense practitioner's try to stay out of areas where people are getting really drunk and doing drugs. (ie. night clubs) They also try to not be out too late as after midnight nothing really good ever happens. Just ask your local law enforcement officer or a bouncer. It always goes down hill when it gets later in the evening and a lot of drunk, testosterone fueled men are left by themselves as the couples, single women, etc. have either hooked up or left. At the end of the night all you have are some drunk guys and a few gals who usually cause as much trouble as the guy's. (ie. they get off on seeing the fight)

I trained with Renzo once and liked him from an teacher point of view in Brazilian Jiujitsu and he would be a good person to learn from for BJJ and MMA. Probably not who I would go to for self-defense skill sets which comprise a lot more than just physical skill sets. Even though he is older I do not think he has the maturity or knowledge that I would want in that department!

I'm still failing to see how any of that has any relevance towards this woman being able stop this criminal from beating the crap out of her. Despite the fact that Renzo is a crazy SoB, that doesn't change the fact that his schools are some of the best around, and it's highly doubtful that a Renzo Gracie purple to black belt would have gotten victimized like that woman in the OP.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It has a lot to do with self-defense and who you choose to learn from. Someone who cannot control their own ego, violent tendencies, etc. or someone who understands the laws and trains for self-defense and personal protection. The woman in the video maybe could have benefitted from training with a serious self-defense and personal protection instructor and particularly one that would have emphasized to her to have a force multiplier ie. tool, knife, handgun, etc. A good instructor would have taught her to have tools on her and if for some reason she was in her house, etc. and someone broke in to get a force multiplier. ie. kitchen knives, firearm in a panic room, etc. If and only if she couldn't get to a force multiplier then engage in her physical skill sets. In the uneven terrain of her living room if she was unable to get to her kitchen knives, etc. I am not sure if grappling would have worked well for her based on what we see in that video. Could it? Sure? However, we will never know. I sit here writing this with three force multipliers on me in my living room. Most of the people I know that are serious about self-defense and personal protections skills typically have force multipliers on them regularly.

However, Hanzou this thread is not just about that woman and or her situation only but what people think are the "pillars of self defense". What could be good for a woman, person, etc. with limited training time, etc.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

t's highly doubtful that a Renzo Gracie purple to black belt would have gotten victimized like that woman in the OP.

Maybe, maybe not. A medium to light weight woman who engaged grappling and attempted to deal with this man in an uneven terrain living room may have succeeded or may have been killed by the man after pissing him off. He is a powerful big dude. We will simply never know what would happen in that scenario and all you are doing here is Monday morning quarterbacking which after a while gets old. While many posters here are engaging in positive feedback and putting up positive information.

I would however encourage you to state what you think would be good pillars of defense and how you would go about helping someone to not be victimized. That could of course include BJJ training but I'm sure you are starting to realize that there should be more! I look forward to your positive feedback!!!

 

[elder999]

I'm still failing..

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Steve in reference to your post regarding some times a disconnect between training and reality there definitely is that out there. Many systems are more geared towards combatives with very few systems geared towards straight personal protection or self-defense. IRT as I teach it definitely is a combatives system. It is geared towards combat between people that has the potential for life and death. When I am teaching military officers or enlisted men who come to me to knowing that they will be in country soon and not happy necessarily with what they have received from the military in empty hands and blade work I teach them exactly what they need to know from a battlefield perspective. Particularly killed or be killed with the blade. I must also take into account his weapon location's and where he places them on his body. This is of course different than when I am teaching a law enforcement officer who has to operate within departmental guidelines and use of force continuum as well as the laws in his respective state. Yet there is also crossover if it is a lethal confrontation. He or she may need the exact same skills that the military person needs. I also have to account for where he places his tools in what I am teaching him and this is very important when grappling and everything else as well. It would be really terrible to teach someone a guard pass that actually brings their firearm on their belt right to the criminals hands. Similarly some things apply when teaching everyday citizens. They need to know their local laws, guidelines for utilizing force and an understanding of what personal protection is all about as well as legal implication and what self-defense really is. (ie. a legal term) Yet, if there is extreme violence with lethal weapons and or situations are introduced (ie. pounding a head on concrete, etc.) then there is also crossover. When you get into the realm of personal protection there area shades of grey.

Some good reading material on this is:

Rory Milller - Facing Violence

Marc MacYoung - Self Defense: What you need to know, when you need to know it

 

[jks9199]

We're talking about the pillars of self defense. In context, a pillar is a foundation or key element, without which the structure cannot stand. Self defense, in this context, I would define as being protection oneself from physical assault and violent crime. You can expand it to include emotional/psychological crime, as well, but if we aren't careful as we expand it we'll end up with something that's gone from already pretty darn wide to something that's unworkable.


We also need to put a caveat in place: dealing with violence is really like the old story of the blind men and the elephant. For those unfamiliar with the story – a group of men, blind from birth, are led to an elephant. Each approaches it, and examines what comes in reach. So... one describes it as being like a snake, another a tree trunk, the third like a bridge over his head, and so on, with each describing what they encountered. Do any of them really understand “elephant?” No – only that little bit they came into contact with. Violence and self protection are much the same; I'm familiar with imposing force on people, and protecting myself in one sort of situation as a cop. But it's not the same as Jenna's experience as a woman, or even Tez's experience as a female cop in another country. It's not even the same as ballen's experience, not too far from where I am. My direct knowledge of the subject is limited to my direct experience, which is shaped by who I am (physically and psychologically), my profession, where I live and work, who I associate with, where I grew up, and so on. My mediated knowledge (stuff I've learned from research and reading and talking to others) is wider – but it's not the same as direct experience. (I'm sure I'm not the first to use the blind men and the elephant in this context.)


So... what are the pillars of self defense, in my opinion? Let's start with awareness – actually knowing, realistically, with what's going on around you, and what's likely to happen. This is an active skill, requiring practice and work. From awareness, we can move to avoidance – taking steps to prevent being the victim, including things like not looking like a target or traveling to places where we're likely to be victims, and, being aware of an imminent problem, taking steps before any actual or direct contact is made to prevent it. It might be as simple as taking a different cab than the Uber driver who gives you a sketchy feeling, or crossing the street – or just recognizing that you're a stranger in a strange land, and had best get yourself back to the right side of the tracks, and doing it. Once avoidance is impossible or has failed – we move into conflict management and de-escalation. Can we talk our way out of trouble? If a buy the guy who's girl I just unknowingly hit on a drink – can we avoid the whole Monkey Dance and ensuing fight? What can I do to prevent or avoid violence. (Sometimes, the answer is nothing!) Finally, we get into physical skills. At this point, we need to address things like recovering from an ambush, handling a freeze, and just plain how to deal with the attack. “No one system has a monopoly on truth” – some may be better suited to giving you useful skills rapidly, but all of them have something good to offer. And something bad to avoid... Then, when everything is over and done with – we have to deal with the aftermath, the ramifications and consequences. This ranges from self-care for injuries, to dealing with the cops, and has to include dealing with the mental and emotional fall out of a violent encounter.


Think about it... each of those areas is worth a post – probably a thread! – all it's own.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I wouldn't recommend a DLT, no. However, I would recommend a clinch takedown of some sort. Either forward, side, rear, or from a clinch to a modified Kouchi Gake like so;

http://share.gifyoutube.com/vpP9zR.gif

That might work but if it doesn't she would have been crushed. I certainly would not recommend it. A small woman purposely grabbing such a large guy is not likely to end well for her unless she has a significant amount of training. More than likely the guy would just smash her

there's a high chance that its not going to dislocate the knee, or cause much damage whatsoever.

Unless it is taught properly.

So your "Judo chop" follow-up would be a fruitless endeavor.

Seriously? A 'Judo chop', that's what your going with?

A knife hand strike just like I suggested is a very powerful and effective strike when trained properly, hardly fruitless.

Speaking of good schools, there's actually a Renzo Gracie academy about 10 miles from her home. Of course she would have probably attended one of the many TKD schools instead.

There is more to a good school than just quality teaching by an experienced instructor. The character of the instructor is important also, especially if he/she is teaching self defense. Attacking two people because you think they might attack you and then going looking for them after the fact just to choke them out several times to punish them is not a sign of good character. I don't know ,much about the schools in other countries but I could recommend one in mine.

 

[Hanzou]

That might work but if it doesn't she would have been crushed. I certainly would not recommend it. A small woman purposely grabbing such a large guy is not likely to end well for her unless she has a significant amount of training. More than likely the guy would just smash her

Except for the fact that she would be significantly trained, and have plenty of experience performing that technique against a wide variety of people.

Unless it is taught properly.



Seriously? A 'Judo chop', that's what your going with?

A knife hand strike just like I suggested is a very powerful and effective strike when trained properly, hardly fruitless.

Just curious; How many times have you actually dislocated your classmate's knee with a side kick? How many times have you slammed your bladed hand into your classmate's neck after you dislocated their knee?

If the answer is none (and it IS none because you guys don't even spar) then you've never actually done that technique. You have a hypothesis of what you believe will happen if you're in the position to do X and he's doing Y. You have no concept of the various effects that your attack would have depending on body type, weight, height, power, etc.

On the other hand, I've actually done minor inner hooks on people hundreds of times. I've done modifications, I've done proper technique, I've done combinations if the person doesn't fall the way I want them to, I've even done them in MMA gyms where the guy is punching and kicking me. I've done them against big guys, little guys, women, young, old, etc.

That's the difference. There's hypothesis and theory, and there's application. If you've never really applied the technique, you can't speak to its effectiveness. You simply have a model of what its supposed to look like.

There is more to a good school than just quality teaching by an experienced instructor. The character of the instructor is important also, especially if he/she is teaching self defense. Attacking two people because you think they might attack you and then going looking for them after the fact just to choke them out several times to punish them is not a sign of good character.

Well as I stated before, Renzo's school produces excellent practitioners and instructors, so if she was looking for a good jiujitsu school, I wouldn't hesitate to point her in that direction.

 

[Buka]

I reread the OP again. Picked up something I missed. The question was "With this video to start – what do you think should form the ‘fundamentals of self-defense training’ for the women described above?"

I'm not really sure. I think it would help to actually know or train her. However, I listed what I think the pillars are in general. (Probably isn't germain to the conversation, but I'll post them anyway)

1. Combative, contact training against a variety of resisting opponents. From all standing distances, (far, in-close, standing grapple) and all aspects of ground fighting, including strikes.

2. Communicative skills.

3. Honest knowledge of self - weaknesses, habits etc.

4. Awareness. Including, but not limited to: body language, both his and yours, escape routes, threat accessment, landscaping etc,

5. Common sense when it comes to self defense. ie - if you find yourself in a fair fight, realization that your tactics suck.

6 Physicality or physical fitness. An out of shape YOU is not the same as a fit YOU. One is a strong pillar, the other a weakened or broken one - that cannot defend, NOR run.

7. Knowledge of physiology- tunnel vision, adrenaline, affects of alchohol/drugs etc.

8. Knowledge of basic self defense laws in your geographic area, knowledge of police procedure in response to same, your attorney (or your dad's, friend's etc) on speed dial.

9. Heart.