Does anybody spar according to you? XD
I see you say "You dont even spar" to people every now and then and they usuallyu DO...
RTKD actually put a video on antoher thread of his school sparring XD
Fundamental pillars of self-defense?
- Thread starter Brian King
- Start date
Does anybody spar according to you? XD
I see you say "You dont even spar" to people every now and then and they usuallyu DO...
RTKD actually put a video on antoher thread of his school sparring XD
OP
OP
Thanks PhotonGuy.
While I do believe in the 6 P's, I agree that it is god to be able to adjust any time needed. There is that ol joke... "How do you know GOD has a sense of humor?" ....Answer. "You make a plan." Or as I believe Mike Tyson said..."Everybody has pan, until they get punched in the mouth."
Thanks for posting
Brian King
OP
OP
Hey, congrats on the new job Ballen0351! Must have been interesting attending the academy again after so many years. Thanks for taking the time to post.
If I can paraphrase your 'pillar' to make sure I understand it.- Tool use should not only be encouraged but should be the primary priority of the training as an equalizer to size, age, speed, strength, numbers, and mindset disadvantages.
Regarding the fear, stress, and surprise of the kind of attack shown in the video, do you think that there is training that can help a person better respond and deal with all aspects of this type of circumstance including the victimization that interpersonal violence often begets?
Thanks again for posting
Regards
Brian King
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Irrelevant because the original point stands; If you've never dislocated someone's knee, or disabled someone with a neck strike you can't say you've actually done those techniques. Much less say that you could pull them off in a bad situation.
In another thread Brian posted a video of a neck strrke ko-ing a guy......
True, we dont dislocate knees.
But we do:
Break ribs,
Rock each other ( I've seen more than a handfulk of guys Koe-d
Do takedowns in sparring
Your point also works 2 ways.
Even tony agreed there are more BJJ classes that dont hgave their guys defend punched than those that do.
Your point applies here tto bub.
Working guard against someone grappling is pretty different than trying to do it against someone dropping bombs on your face.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Yeah, a lucky backhand slap that knocked the guy out. Even a dead clock is right twice a day. It's hard to believe that you can reliably pull off a move that you've never actually done before.
So you guys consistently break each other's ribs, and KO each other in every class? That's pretty hardcore.
If your Bjj school isn't offering grappling training with someone striking you, you need to find a Bjj or MMA school that does. I'm pretty sure that Renzo's school, which was in driving distance of this victim's house, does offer such training,
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
It was fun I got to do all the fun things new hires do (drivers training, firearms, Defensive tactics) with out all the yelling and push ups.
I dont know if you can have 1 set of pillars for all people unless you go very broad like awareness, avoidance,etc. What works for me and Id consider MY pillar wouldn't work for my wife for example. So Im not sure there are pillars you can use across the board without getting to broad. So a my self defense pillars are to always be armed, my mindset is always prepared, No matter where I go I look for exits, cover and concealment. If Im with my family Im even more guarded and would be less inclined to intervene in a situation.
Perhaps but I think in my opinion her biggest problem was she was in her own home with her kid. I dont know if there is anything you can do to prepare yourself for that since for most that's the ultimate nightmare. Even still the best training is no guarantee your going to react as you train. I have seen officers freeze in a serious stressful situation. When I was on Swat I watched a guy fresh out of Swat school on his first raid totally forget to take out his weapon his brain locked he just held on to my vest followed me when we were secure I looked at him and he never had his weapon out. I asked him and he said he had no idea everything was just so fast and he couldn't get his mind to function.
So I think stress training can help but its no guarantee since even the hardest training is still not real. We never know how we will react when it gets real
You are so precious!!
I mean, you do know that people all over the world who have never shot anyone, go out and shoot people-from cops to terrorists to soldiers-they train to shoot, then they shoot.....you do know that all those people to whom you're referring-who've disclocated whatever, knocked out whomever, stabbed whomever, had never done any of those things until they did them, but likely had trained to do them before they did?
I, for instance, never stabbed anyone before I trained to, never started up a nuclear reactor until I did-but had trained to first, had never shot a deer with an arrow without putting countless arrows into targets, never had broken an arm (and, yes, I've broken an arm) without training to do so without breaking one, never knocked anyone out (and yes, I've knocked a few people out, in "the ring" and out of it) without training to do so without doing so.
I never ran a marathon, until I did.
I never climbed a mountain, until I did.
I never sailed across an ocean, until I did.
I never dismantled a nuclear device, until I did.
I really could have died doing any of those things, but I didn't, because of training.......and, in the case of sailing across an ocean, maybe saying the right prayers.....
Some people are just so thick and blinded by what they think that they "know." It boggles the mind.....
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Yeah, but those people eventually did it, that's the point.
For example, you can train to run the marathon, but until you actually do it, you can't really say that you ran the marathon. You can't even honestly say that you're capable of running the marathon until you've done it.
To say that you're capable of kicking a person's kee out when you've never done it before is wishful thinking at best, sheer dellusuion at worst.
Nah. It's a matter of physics.
If I can deliver a kick of (X) amount of force, and it exceeds what is required to break a knee, then I'm capable taking a person's knee out, whether I've done it before or not is immaterial.
That people's knees are different (my knee might require (X) amount of force, while you're might require (X)+1 amount of force) and the factors that go into generating that force: speed, mass, etc., are variable from kicker to kicker, is a factor, but an immaterial one: if I can deliver a kick of sufficient force-greater than that required for any human knee- I can take out a knee....that being said, if one watches muay thai, they will see knees survive a variety of kicks, delivered by people who kick for a living (though no front kicks or side kicks to the knee are permitted)-while the knee is a legitimate target for self-defense, "taking the knee out" is not necessarily a likely goal.
In any case, if I can deliver a kick that generates a force greater than 3558 newtons, or roughly about 800 lbs. of pressure (less than a good punch, really) to the knee at the precise structural moment that the patella is vulnerable (i.e., when the knee is locked and straight, or in an equivalent-and rare-posture) I can "take out a knee." Period. Full stop. Don't have to do it, to know that I can......etc., etc., etc., yet another example of things you might think that you know, when you don't.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Where did I say it wasn't possible to kick someone's knee out if you've never done it before? I said that until you've actually done it, you can't honestly say that you can do it when the chips are down and you need that technique to save you from a big bad coming to harm you.
You've never actually kicked out a knee before. You don't know the amount of force you specifically need to dislocate that specific knee. You don't know the distance or timing necessary, and you lack the actual experience of doing it. It's like saying that landing a plane in a simulator is the same as actually landing a plane in the real world with passengers. If you've kicked out dozens of knees in your time, that's a different story, but if you're just doing one-step drills in the training hall, then you've never really kicked someone's knee out, so you can't really say that you CAN kick someone's knee out.
This is why Jigaro Kano relegated dangerous strikes to kata and focused training on perfecting techniques you could actually do in class. I CAN perform kouchi Gake on someone because I've done it to people countless times in class and out of class under a variety of circumstances. I can do that because kouchi Gake is a relatively safe technique to perform on people. On the other hand, I can't go around kicking people's knees out to perfect my technique.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
just for what it's worth, this has come up before. I think that regarding the point above, it's important to distinguish between learning to do something and being qualified to teach something.
I have real concerns about people claiming practical expertise in things that they have never actually done.
Would you learn to climb a mountain from someone who's never done it? Would you learn to sail from someone who's never been in a real boat? I wouldn't. But many people who learn "self defense" are actually learning to fight from people who have never done it.
Hanzou said:
You shouldn't even go there, son..
It's likely that before you were born, and long before the world knew who Royce and Rorion Gracie were, I'd kicked out at least three knees, just for the pleasure of watching the people who belonged to them scream and crawl on the floor.....seriously.....
.....before I stomped on them, and, sometimes, took their wallets....
I knew I could take out a knee-and, you're going to hate this- because I'd kicked out equivalent boards and pavers for the force required.Long before I'd "kicked out a knee," I knew I could kick out a knee, and did it-more than once-purely for the pleasure of it-as far as "self-defense" goes, it was, likely, completely unnecessary, no matter how "justified."
In any case, like I said, it's physics: we knew we could land a man on the moon and bring him home, before we launched Apollo 11. Human bodies just aren't that different.
Hanzou said:
Nope. Kano Jigoro never really intended to relegate strikes to kata-it just worked out that way before he died-he died trying to work it out, and, during WWII, judo shiai included strikes.....you're just wrong about this, like so many other things....more to the point, I know I can strike someone in the throat and watch them choke, not because I have (and I have) but because of physics, and human anatomy.
All somewhat valid....sometimes...in some situations...I learned to rappel from a man who'd never been on Everest (and, it turns out, you don't really need to know how to rappel to climb Everest...) I learned celestial navigation from a man (my father) who'd never sailed across the Atlantic, never sailed much in the Pacific-aside from coastal Hawaii, and never sailed the Southern Ocean, the Caribbean, or the South China Sea-all things I've done, and navigated, using the methods he taught me.
And you know, I regularly seek out trained and experienced killers for training, but I've known more than a few trainers who'd never killed anyone, and trained killers themselves (and were, perhaps, trained killers without even knowing it themselves...)
Steve
Mostly Harmless
yeah. There's a dinstinctikn to be drawn when it comes to academic pursuits. But the rappelling... That guy may or may not have climbed Mount Everest. But he'd rappelled.
this is kind of what I was getting at earlier. I appreciate the responses here regarding the pillars of self defense. When we get down to what people. Are actually training seems more like how to kill than how to defend. At least, that's my impression when I read people's descriptions of their training. Which leads me to questions like, is this consistent with the rhetoric of self defense training? Or on a practical level, is this person qualified to teach others how to kill?
While there is SOME truth to what you say, it's far from universal.
I've never performed a thoracotomy with a pocket knife. But I have absolutely no doubt that I could.
I've never dislocated a shoulder. Or a knee. But I know how, and I've reduced plenty. I have no doubt that I could dislocate either, if I chose to.
The techniques aren't even all that different. There is a method of reducing an anterior shoulder dislocation which can also be used to cause a posterior dislocation. Exactly the same technique, other than the intent, really. I learned to use it to dislocate the shoulder years before I learned to reduce a dislocation.
On a practical level , ,look to the New York City, Atienza kali case.
A trained killer might not even know that he's a trained killer, training other killers. Just sayin'.....
Steve
Mostly Harmless
DD I think you're responding to hanzou. I am no saying you couldn't do it. I'm saying may you wouldn't be the right guy to teach it if you haven't done it. But even this isn't universal. While you may or may not be able to perform a specific technique, I would say that unless you had worked professionally as a nurse, you wouldn't be qualified to teach others to do the job. We've discussed this in the past.
Relevant to this thread, I still think there's a disconnect between what peop,e actually describe as their training mentality and self defense tactics and what they say is an appropriate self defense strategy. The
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Not familiar with it. I'll look it up.
Not familiar with it. I'll look it up.
When I was a callow lad in my 20's, there was no "Atienza kali," and their dad taught Pekiti tirsia....the Atienza fellas are not much older than my own kid, but one of Alain's students wound up killing a bouncer-I say justifiably, but he got screwed by his lawyer. In any case, Alain and his student were victims of their training:
Alain Atienza's dad trained him to kill. Alain trained Isaias Umali to kill.They were victims of their training: killers, but, having never killed, they just didn't know it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/26/nyregion/26cigarette.html?_r=0
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