Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[Drose427]

Except for the fact that she would be significantly trained, and have plenty of experience performing that technique against a wide variety of people.



Just curious; How many times have you actually dislocated your classmate's knee with a side kick? How many times have you slammed your bladed hand into your classmate's neck after you dislocated their knee?

If the answer is none (and it IS none because you guys don't even spar) then you've never actually done that technique. You have a hypothesis of what you believe will happen if you're in the position to do X and he's doing Y. You have no concept of the various effects that your attack would have depending on body type, weight, height, power, etc.

On the other hand, I've actually done minor inner hooks on people hundreds of times. I've done modifications, I've done proper technique, I've done combinations if the person doesn't fall the way I want them to, I've even done them in MMA gyms where the guy is punching and kicking me. I've done them against big guys, little guys, women, young, old, etc.

That's the difference. There's hypothesis and theory, and there's application. If you've never really applied the technique, you can't speak to its effectiveness. You simply have a model of what its supposed to look like.



Well as I stated before, Renzo's school produces excellent practitioners and instructors, so if she was looking for a good jiujitsu school, I wouldn't hesitate to point her in that direction.

Does anybody spar according to you? XD

I see you say "You dont even spar" to people every now and then and they usuallyu DO...

RTKD actually put a video on antoher thread of his school sparring XD

 

[Brian King]

That is a good saying and prior planning I believe makes up a big part of what self defense is all about. However, you also have to be able to improvise. With self defense, and I would think in the military its like this too especially if you're going into war that its much like a game of Chess. To be good at Chess you have to have prior planning as planning and strategy is what Chess is all about, but what happens all too often, especially if you're opponent is a good opponent, is that they will do something to stop your plan. You might plan top gain a position on your opponent to give yourself an advantage and ultimately win, but your opponent might move his pieces to stop your plan in which case you have to come up with a new plan. That's why you've got to be flexible and able to change your plans at a moment's notice, as well as having good prior planning.

Thanks PhotonGuy.
While I do believe in the 6 P's, I agree that it is god to be able to adjust any time needed. There is that ol joke... "How do you know GOD has a sense of humor?" ....Answer. "You make a plan." Or as I believe Mike Tyson said..."Everybody has pan, until they get punched in the mouth."

Thanks for posting
Brian King

 

[Brian King]

Im late to the party here but in an attempt to get back on the topic here is my opinion

Ive given alot of thought to this over the last few weeks. I started a new Police Department and had to spend 3 weeks at the police academy. While I was there a new hire class was finishing up there 7 months of training and were about to head out on the street. This class had a record number of females in the class. I was looking at them and several of them were very tiny. One of the woman is 5'00 and 105 pounds. Ive done this job for 15 years and have been in several very violent physical confrontations. Looking at her it is of my opinion no amount of training no matter what style will make her win on the street in most fights so she will need to use other aspects of self defense. She will need to rely heavily on her mind and her tools (taser, OC Spray, gun). Thats not a sexist thing ive know several excellent female officers thats physics. Even the best techniques with the best leverage take some strength to accomplish. Add stress to the equation and technique gets worse. Thats not just for female officers small male officers have the same limitations but on average I generally see smaller females then males. So to take this to a self defense topic smaller people like woman, elderly, teens, smaller males, etc should look more towards tools to help them defend themselves, Im a bigger guy and I carry a gun 90+% of the time. I dont think any pillar that focus on physical resistance regardless of style is effective for alot of people.

The fear, stress, and surprise of this attack in my opinion there is no amount of training she could of had short of a professional fighter that would have changed this outcome. 1st many people dont train for an attack in your own house, we are supposed to be safe in our house. Speaking to victims THIS is the worst part of victimization. We let our guards down at home, we feel safe at home so an attack at home can be totally overwhelming. 2nd her child was present so thats an added stress she needed to worry about, 3rd the size difference is a major factor, and 4th the mindset HE is a predator and has that mindset to attack and has no problem hurting people most normal people dont think that way and dont want to hurt anyone.

Hey, congrats on the new job Ballen0351! Must have been interesting attending the academy again after so many years. Thanks for taking the time to post.

If I can paraphrase your 'pillar' to make sure I understand it.- Tool use should not only be encouraged but should be the primary priority of the training as an equalizer to size, age, speed, strength, numbers, and mindset disadvantages.

Regarding the fear, stress, and surprise of the kind of attack shown in the video, do you think that there is training that can help a person better respond and deal with all aspects of this type of circumstance including the victimization that interpersonal violence often begets?

Thanks again for posting
Regards
Brian King

 

[Hanzou]

Does anybody spar according to you? XD

I see you say "You dont even spar" to people every now and then and they usuallyu DO...

RTKD actually put a video on antoher thread of his school sparring XD

Irrelevant because the original point stands; If you've never dislocated someone's knee, or disabled someone with a neck strike you can't say you've actually done those techniques. Much less say that you could pull them off in a bad situation.

 

[Drose427]

Irrelevant because the original point stands; If you've never dislocated someone's knee, or disabled someone with a neck strike you can't say you've actually done those techniques. Much less say that you could pull them off in a bad situation.

In another thread Brian posted a video of a neck strrke ko-ing a guy......

True, we dont dislocate knees.

But we do:

Break ribs,

Rock each other ( I've seen more than a handfulk of guys Koe-d

Do takedowns in sparring

Your point also works 2 ways.

Even tony agreed there are more BJJ classes that dont hgave their guys defend punched than those that do.

Your point applies here tto bub.

Working guard against someone grappling is pretty different than trying to do it against someone dropping bombs on your face.

 

[Hanzou]

In another thread Brian posted a video of a neck strrke ko-ing a guy......

Yeah, a lucky backhand slap that knocked the guy out. Even a dead clock is right twice a day. It's hard to believe that you can reliably pull off a move that you've never actually done before.

True, we dont dislocate knees.

But we do:

Break ribs,

Rock each other ( I've seen more than a handfulk of guys Koe-d

So you guys consistently break each other's ribs, and KO each other in every class? That's pretty hardcore.

Your point also works 2 ways.

Even tony agreed there are more BJJ classes that dont hgave their guys defend punched than those that do.

Your point applies here tto bub.

Working guard against someone grappling is pretty different than trying to do it against someone dropping bombs on your face.

If your Bjj school isn't offering grappling training with someone striking you, you need to find a Bjj or MMA school that does. I'm pretty sure that Renzo's school, which was in driving distance of this victim's house, does offer such training,

 

[ballen0351]

Hey, congrats on the new job Ballen0351! Must have been interesting attending the academy again after so many years. Thanks for taking the time to post.

It was fun I got to do all the fun things new hires do (drivers training, firearms, Defensive tactics) with out all the yelling and push ups.

If I can paraphrase your 'pillar' to make sure I understand it.- Tool use should not only be encouraged but should be the primary priority of the training as an equalizer to size, age, speed, strength, numbers, and mindset disadvantages.

I dont know if you can have 1 set of pillars for all people unless you go very broad like awareness, avoidance,etc. What works for me and Id consider MY pillar wouldn't work for my wife for example. So Im not sure there are pillars you can use across the board without getting to broad. So a my self defense pillars are to always be armed, my mindset is always prepared, No matter where I go I look for exits, cover and concealment. If Im with my family Im even more guarded and would be less inclined to intervene in a situation.

Regarding the fear, stress, and surprise of the kind of attack shown in the video, do you think that there is training that can help a person better respond and deal with all aspects of this type of circumstance including the victimization that interpersonal violence often begets?

Perhaps but I think in my opinion her biggest problem was she was in her own home with her kid. I dont know if there is anything you can do to prepare yourself for that since for most that's the ultimate nightmare. Even still the best training is no guarantee your going to react as you train. I have seen officers freeze in a serious stressful situation. When I was on Swat I watched a guy fresh out of Swat school on his first raid totally forget to take out his weapon his brain locked he just held on to my vest followed me when we were secure I looked at him and he never had his weapon out. I asked him and he said he had no idea everything was just so fast and he couldn't get his mind to function.
So I think stress training can help but its no guarantee since even the hardest training is still not real. We never know how we will react when it gets real

 

[elder999]

Irrelevant because the original point stands; If you've never dislocated someone's knee, or disabled someone with a neck strike you can't say you've actually done those techniques. Much less say that you could pull them off in a bad situation.

You are so precious!!

I mean, you do know that people all over the world who have never shot anyone, go out and shoot people-from cops to terrorists to soldiers-they train to shoot, then they shoot.....you do know that all those people to whom you're referring-who've disclocated whatever, knocked out whomever, stabbed whomever, had never done any of those things until they did them, but likely had trained to do them before they did?

I, for instance, never stabbed anyone before I trained to, never started up a nuclear reactor until I did-but had trained to first, had never shot a deer with an arrow without putting countless arrows into targets, never had broken an arm (and, yes, I've broken an arm) without training to do so without breaking one, never knocked anyone out (and yes, I've knocked a few people out, in "the ring" and out of it) without training to do so without doing so.

I never ran a marathon, until I did.
I never climbed a mountain, until I did.
I never sailed across an ocean, until I did.
I never dismantled a nuclear device, until I did.

I really could have died doing any of those things, but I didn't, because of training.......and, in the case of sailing across an ocean, maybe saying the right prayers.....

Some people are just so thick and blinded by what they think that they "know." It boggles the mind.....

 

[Hanzou]

You are so precious!!

I mean, you do know that people all over the world who have never shot anyone, go out and shoot people-from cops to terrorists to soldiers-they train to shoot, then they shoot.....you do know that all those people to whom you're referring-who've disclocated whatever, knocked out whomever, stabbed whomever, had never done any of those things until they did them, but likely had trained to do them before they did?

Yeah, but those people eventually did it, that's the point.

For example, you can train to run the marathon, but until you actually do it, you can't really say that you ran the marathon. You can't even honestly say that you're capable of running the marathon until you've done it.

To say that you're capable of kicking a person's kee out when you've never done it before is wishful thinking at best, sheer dellusuion at worst.

 

[elder999]

Yeah, but those people eventually did it, that's the point.

For example, you can train to run the marathon, but until you actually do it, you can't really say that you ran the marathon. You can't even honestly say that you're capable of running the marathon until you've done it.

To say that you're capable of kicking a person's kee out when you've never done it before is wishful thinking at best, sheer dellusuion at worst.

Nah. It's a matter of physics.

If I can deliver a kick of (X) amount of force, and it exceeds what is required to break a knee, then I'm capable taking a person's knee out, whether I've done it before or not is immaterial.

That people's knees are different (my knee might require (X) amount of force, while you're might require (X)+1 amount of force) and the factors that go into generating that force: speed, mass, etc., are variable from kicker to kicker, is a factor, but an immaterial one: if I can deliver a kick of sufficient force-greater than that required for any human knee- I can take out a knee....that being said, if one watches muay thai, they will see knees survive a variety of kicks, delivered by people who kick for a living (though no front kicks or side kicks to the knee are permitted)-while the knee is a legitimate target for self-defense, "taking the knee out" is not necessarily a likely goal.

In any case, if I can deliver a kick that generates a force greater than 3558 newtons, or roughly about 800 lbs. of pressure (less than a good punch, really) to the knee at the precise structural moment that the patella is vulnerable (i.e., when the knee is locked and straight, or in an equivalent-and rare-posture) I can "take out a knee." Period. Full stop. Don't have to do it, to know that I can......etc., etc., etc., yet another example of things you might think that you know, when you don't.

 

[Hanzou]

Nah. It's a matter of physics.

If I can deliver a kick of (X) amount of force, and it exceeds what is required to break a knee, then I'm capable taking a person's knee out, whether I've done it before or not is immaterial.

That people's knees are different (my knee might require (X) amount of force, while you're might require (X)+1 amount of force) and the factors that go into generating that force: speed, mass, etc., are variable from kicker to kicker, is a factor, but an immaterial one: if I can deliver a kick of sufficient force-greater than that required for any human knee- I can take out a knee....that being said, if one watches muay thai, they will see knees survive a variety of kicks, delivered by people who kick for a living (though no front kicks or side kicks to the knee are permitted)-while the knee is a legitimate target for self-defense, "taking the knee out" is not necessarily a likely goal.

In any case, if I can deliver a kick that generates a force greater than 3558 newtons, or roughly about 800 lbs. of pressure (less than a good punch, really) to the knee at the precise structural moment that the patella is vulnerable (i.e., when the knee is locked and straight, or in an equivalent-and rare-posture) I can "take out a knee." Period. Full stop. Don't have to do it, to know that I can......etc., etc., etc., yet another example of things you might think that you know, when you don't.

Where did I say it wasn't possible to kick someone's knee out if you've never done it before? I said that until you've actually done it, you can't honestly say that you can do it when the chips are down and you need that technique to save you from a big bad coming to harm you.

You've never actually kicked out a knee before. You don't know the amount of force you specifically need to dislocate that specific knee. You don't know the distance or timing necessary, and you lack the actual experience of doing it. It's like saying that landing a plane in a simulator is the same as actually landing a plane in the real world with passengers. If you've kicked out dozens of knees in your time, that's a different story, but if you're just doing one-step drills in the training hall, then you've never really kicked someone's knee out, so you can't really say that you CAN kick someone's knee out.

This is why Jigaro Kano relegated dangerous strikes to kata and focused training on perfecting techniques you could actually do in class. I CAN perform kouchi Gake on someone because I've done it to people countless times in class and out of class under a variety of circumstances. I can do that because kouchi Gake is a relatively safe technique to perform on people. On the other hand, I can't go around kicking people's knees out to perfect my technique.

 

[Steve]

You are so precious!!

I mean, you do know that people all over the world who have never shot anyone, go out and shoot people-from cops to terrorists to soldiers-they train to shoot, then they shoot.....you do know that all those people to whom you're referring-who've disclocated whatever, knocked out whomever, stabbed whomever, had never done any of those things until they did them, but likely had trained to do them before they did?

I, for instance, never stabbed anyone before I trained to, never started up a nuclear reactor until I did-but had trained to first, had never shot a deer with an arrow without putting countless arrows into targets, never had broken an arm (and, yes, I've broken an arm) without training to do so without breaking one, never knocked anyone out (and yes, I've knocked a few people out, in "the ring" and out of it) without training to do so without doing so.

I never ran a marathon, until I did.
I never climbed a mountain, until I did.
I never sailed across an ocean, until I did.
I never dismantled a nuclear device, until I did.

I really could have died doing any of those things, but I didn't, because of training.......and, in the case of sailing across an ocean, maybe saying the right prayers.....

Some people are just so thick and blinded by what they think that they "know." It boggles the mind.....

just for what it's worth, this has come up before. I think that regarding the point above, it's important to distinguish between learning to do something and being qualified to teach something.

I have real concerns about people claiming practical expertise in things that they have never actually done.

Would you learn to climb a mountain from someone who's never done it? Would you learn to sail from someone who's never been in a real boat? I wouldn't. But many people who learn "self defense" are actually learning to fight from people who have never done it.

 

[elder999]

Where did I say it wasn't possible to kick someone's knee out if you've never done it before? I said that until you've actually done it, you can't honestly say that you can do it when the chips are down and you need that technique to save you from a big bad coming to harm you.
You've never actually kicked out a knee before. You don't know the amount of force you specifically need to dislocate that specific knee. You don't know the distance or timing necessary, and you lack the actual experience of doing it. It's like saying that landing a plane in a simulator is the same as actually landing a plane in the real world with passengers. If you've kicked out dozens of knees in your time, that's a different story, but if you're just doing one-step drills in the training hall, then you've never really kicked someone's knee out, so you can't really say that you CAN kick someone's knee out.

You shouldn't even go there, son..

It's likely that before you were born, and long before the world knew who Royce and Rorion Gracie were, I'd kicked out at least three knees, just for the pleasure of watching the people who belonged to them scream and crawl on the floor.....seriously.....

.....before I stomped on them, and, sometimes, took their wallets....

I knew I could take out a knee-and, you're going to hate this- because I'd kicked out equivalent boards and pavers for the force required.Long before I'd "kicked out a knee," I knew I could kick out a knee, and did it-more than once-purely for the pleasure of it-as far as "self-defense" goes, it was, likely, completely unnecessary, no matter how "justified."

In any case, like I said, it's physics: we knew we could land a man on the moon and bring him home, before we launched Apollo 11. Human bodies just aren't that different.

This is why Jigaro Kano relegated dangerous strikes to kata and focused training on perfecting techniques you could actually do in class. I CAN perform kouchi Gake on someone because I've done it to people countless times in class and out of class under a variety of circumstances. I can do that because kouchi Gake is a relatively safe technique to perform on people. On the other hand, I can't go around kicking people's knees out to perfect my technique.

Nope. Kano Jigoro never really intended to relegate strikes to kata-it just worked out that way before he died-he died trying to work it out, and, during WWII, judo shiai included strikes.....you're just wrong about this, like so many other things....more to the point, I know I can strike someone in the throat and watch them choke, not because I have (and I have) but because of physics, and human anatomy.

 

[elder999]

just for what it's worth, this has come up before. I think that regarding the point above, it's important to distinguish between learning to do something and being qualified to teach something.

I have real concerns about people claiming practical expertise in things that they have never actually done.

Would you learn to climb a mountain from someone who's never done it? Would you learn to sail from someone who's never been in a real boat?

All somewhat valid....sometimes...in some situations...I learned to rappel from a man who'd never been on Everest (and, it turns out, you don't really need to know how to rappel to climb Everest...) I learned celestial navigation from a man (my father) who'd never sailed across the Atlantic, never sailed much in the Pacific-aside from coastal Hawaii, and never sailed the Southern Ocean, the Caribbean, or the South China Sea-all things I've done, and navigated, using the methods he taught me.

. But many people who learn "self defense" are actually learning to fight from people who have never done it.

And you know, I regularly seek out trained and experienced killers for training, but I've known more than a few trainers who'd never killed anyone, and trained killers themselves (and were, perhaps, trained killers without even knowing it themselves...)

 

[Steve]

All somewhat valid....sometimes...in some situations...I learned to rappel from a man who'd never been on Everest (and, it turns out, you don't really need to know how to rappel to climb Everest...) I learned celestial navigation from a man (my father) who'd never sailed across the Atlantic, never sailed much in the Pacific-aside from coastal Hawaii, and never sailed the Southern Ocean, the Caribbean, or the South China Sea-all things I've done, and navigated, using the methods he taught me.

yeah. There's a dinstinctikn to be drawn when it comes to academic pursuits. But the rappelling... That guy may or may not have climbed Mount Everest. But he'd rappelled.

And you know, I regularly seek out trained and experienced killers for training, but I've known more than a few trainers who'd never killed anyone, and trained killers themselves (and were, perhaps, trained killers without even knowing it themselves...)

this is kind of what I was getting at earlier. I appreciate the responses here regarding the pillars of self defense. When we get down to what people. Are actually training seems more like how to kill than how to defend. At least, that's my impression when I read people's descriptions of their training. Which leads me to questions like, is this consistent with the rhetoric of self defense training? Or on a practical level, is this person qualified to teach others how to kill?

 

[Dirty Dog]

just for what it's worth, this has come up before. I think that regarding the point above, it's important to distinguish between learning to do something and being qualified to teach something.

I have real concerns about people claiming practical expertise in things that they have never actually done.

Would you learn to climb a mountain from someone who's never done it? Would you learn to sail from someone who's never been in a real boat? I wouldn't. But many people who learn "self defense" are actually learning to fight from people who have never done it.

While there is SOME truth to what you say, it's far from universal.

I've never performed a thoracotomy with a pocket knife. But I have absolutely no doubt that I could.

I've never dislocated a shoulder. Or a knee. But I know how, and I've reduced plenty. I have no doubt that I could dislocate either, if I chose to.

The techniques aren't even all that different. There is a method of reducing an anterior shoulder dislocation which can also be used to cause a posterior dislocation. Exactly the same technique, other than the intent, really. I learned to use it to dislocate the shoulder years before I learned to reduce a dislocation.

 

[elder999]

Or on a practical level, is this person qualified to teach others how to kill?

On a practical level , ,look to the New York City, Atienza kali case.

A trained killer might not even know that he's a trained killer, training other killers. Just sayin'.....

 

[Steve]

While there is SOME truth to what you say, it's far from universal.

I've never performed a thoracotomy with a pocket knife. But I have absolutely no doubt that I could.

I've never dislocated a shoulder. Or a knee. But I know how, and I've reduced plenty. I have no doubt that I could dislocate either, if I chose to.

The techniques aren't even all that different. There is a method of reducing an anterior shoulder dislocation which can also be used to cause a posterior dislocation. Exactly the same technique, other than the intent, really. I learned to use it to dislocate the shoulder years before I learned to reduce a dislocation.

DD I think you're responding to hanzou. I am no saying you couldn't do it. I'm saying may you wouldn't be the right guy to teach it if you haven't done it. But even this isn't universal. While you may or may not be able to perform a specific technique, I would say that unless you had worked professionally as a nurse, you wouldn't be qualified to teach others to do the job. We've discussed this in the past.

Relevant to this thread, I still think there's a disconnect between what peop,e actually describe as their training mentality and self defense tactics and what they say is an appropriate self defense strategy. The

 

[Steve]

On a practical level , ,look to the New York City, Atienza kali case.

A trained killer might not even know that he's a trained killer, training other killers. Just sayin'.....

Not familiar with it. I'll look it up.

 

[elder999]

Not familiar with it. I'll look it up.

When I was a callow lad in my 20's, there was no "Atienza kali," and their dad taught Pekiti tirsia....the Atienza fellas are not much older than my own kid, but one of Alain's students wound up killing a bouncer-I say justifiably, but he got screwed by his lawyer. In any case, Alain and his student were victims of their training:

Alain Atienza's dad trained him to kill. Alain trained Isaias Umali to kill.They were victims of their training: killers, but, having never killed, they just didn't know it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/26/nyregion/26cigarette.html?_r=0