Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[Zero]

Of course now that I'm more experienced, if I feel that someone isn't going to tap I release and simply transition to something else.
.

Thank god for that, I guess the ten or so cripples wished you'd only got to this level earlier...

 

[drop bear]

Maybe watch some UFC, it's what you guys seem to reference for being representative of reality, there are so so so many times, and going years back, when the ref has jumped in and stopped the fight on arm bars/locks or strike pummelling, ground and pounds etc. Maybe you guys are so tough the ref never gets involved, huh? Joke.

If you don't want to tap I am pretty sure the ref will let the other guy rip the arm/leg off. Once it is broken the fight will get stopped. Punching is different and will get stopped if you cant intelligently defend yourself.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Hanzou]

Thank god for that, I guess the ten or so cripples wished you'd only got to this level earlier...

It's the other guy's responsibility to tap, not mine. If you're not tapping to a solid arm lock, its your fault that your arm got snapped. It's common sense.

The same applies to chokes. If you're too stubborn (or dumb) to tap to a choke that's putting you out, then enjoy your nap, because the other guy more than likely isn't going to release until you go limp.

 

[ballen0351]

It's the other guy's responsibility to tap, not mine. If you're not tapping to a solid arm lock, its your fault that your arm got snapped. It's common sense.

The same applies to chokes. If you're too stubborn (or dumb) to tap to a choke that's putting you out, then enjoy your nap, because the other guy more than likely isn't going to release until you go limp.

No its your responsibility not to be a Dbag and recognize you got the hold you won there is no need to snap someone arm to prove a point.

 

[Steve]

No its your responsibility not to be a Dbag and recognize you got the hold you won there is no need to snap someone arm to prove a point.

Definitely true in training. Not necessarily true in competition (although personally, I'd agree as I'm not a professional competitor and have a day job).

 

[elder999]

It's the other guy's responsibility to tap, not mine. If you're not tapping to a solid arm lock, its your fault that your arm got snapped. It's common sense.

The same applies to chokes. If you're too stubborn (or dumb) to tap to a choke that's putting you out, then enjoy your nap, because the other guy more than likely isn't going to release until you go limp.

I gotta say he's right-not in training, but in competition-it's even still permitted in judo as the only way of intentionally injuring an opponent.

However:

No its your responsibility not to be a Dbag and recognize you got the hold you won there is no need to snap someone arm to prove a point.

Yeah...pretty much. People get out of armbars, though, the longer they're on......chokes? Not good, but not crippling-put the guy to sleep!

 

[Hanzou]

No its your responsibility not to be a Dbag and recognize you got the hold you won there is no need to snap someone arm to prove a point.

I'm not going to release an armbar in a competition if a guy isn't tapping, or the ref isn't stopping the match. That's stupid. If I'm in the training hall and the guy is trying to be an ego-maniac and not tapping, I'll release. However, if its a contest and both of us are trying to win, there's no way I'm releasing a lock on someone until they tap, or the ref stops the match.

Additionally there's been plenty of cases where the person doing the technique just can't tell, and people get their arm, shoulder, or knee dislocated. In the end, it is the person receiving the lock who has the responsibility of tapping if they're feeling pressure on their limb. If you decide to not tap, then you deal with the consequences.

Now if someone is tapping and the person continues to apply pressure, then yes, s/he is a d-bag, and will more than likely get kicked out of a gym or tournament.

 

[Steve]

I'm not going to release an armbar in a competition if a guy isn't tapping, or the ref isn't stopping the match. That's stupid. If I'm in the training hall and the guy is trying to be an ego-maniac and not tapping, I'll release. However, if its a contest and both of us are trying to win, there's no way I'm releasing a lock on someone until they tap, or the ref stops the match.

Additionally there's been plenty of cases where the person doing the technique just can't tell, and people get their arm, shoulder, or knee dislocated. In the end, it is the person receiving the lock who has the responsibility of tapping if they're feeling pressure on their limb. If you decide to not tap, then you deal with the consequences.

Now if someone is tapping and the person continues to apply pressure, then yes, s/he is a d-bag, and will more than likely get kicked out of a gym or tournament.

I'd say that as an upper belt, you have an obligation to protect the lower belts from themselves. If you're rolling with a white belt and they don't tap because they're dumb, you won't break their arm and may end up just playing catch and release with them.

 

[Hanzou]

I'd say that as an upper belt, you have an obligation to protect the lower belts from themselves. If you're rolling with a white belt and they don't tap because they're dumb, you won't break their arm and may end up just playing catch and release with them.

Indeed. Though their spazzing gets dangerous sometimes, especially if they're very large. As I said, as I've gotten more experienced and stopped competing, I'm less concerned about getting submissions, and more into controlling tempo, and transitioning from weaker positions into dominant positions.

 

[Hanzou]

never expected you to, you're clearly too "deadly" for them.

Not even close. I simply find the rules of competitive Judo to be over the top and unnecessary.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not going to release an armbar in a competition if a guy isn't tapping, or the ref isn't stopping the match. That's stupid. If I'm in the training hall and the guy is trying to be an ego-maniac and not tapping, I'll release. However, if its a contest and both of us are trying to win, there's no way I'm releasing a lock on someone until they tap, or the ref stops the match.

Additionally there's been plenty of cases where the person doing the technique just can't tell, and people get their arm, shoulder, or knee dislocated. In the end, it is the person receiving the lock who has the responsibility of tapping if they're feeling pressure on their limb. If you decide to not tap, then you deal with the consequences.

Now if someone is tapping and the person continues to apply pressure, then yes, s/he is a d-bag, and will more than likely get kicked out of a gym or tournament.

Except by your own admission you have broken twice as many people in training and that's what I'm talking about. However even in a tournament your not a professional fighter so why injure another nonprofessional just because you can? Not knowing your about to break is an accident that's not what you said you said if you got the lock in and they don't have the common sense to tap it's not your responsibility when you break them. That's being a Dbag

 

[Hanzou]

Except by your own admission you have broken twice as many people in training and that's what I'm talking about.

Yeah, because I've rolled in the training hall WAY more than in competition. I've only been in a few tournaments. I've been on the mats of various training halls for countless hours.

However even in a tournament your not a professional fighter so why injure another nonprofessional just because you can? Not knowing your about to break is an accident that's not what you said you said if you got the lock in and they don't have the common sense to tap it's not your responsibility when you break them. That's being a Dbag

Again, I take no responsibility for someone not smart enough to tap out when they're caught in an lock in a competition. Applying joint/arm/leg/shoulder locks that can break people is well within the rules of the game.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah, because I've rolled in the training hall WAY more than in competition. I've only been in a few tournaments. I've been on the mats of various training halls for countless hours.



Again, I take no responsibility for someone not smart enough to tap out when they're caught in an lock in a competition. Applying joint/arm/leg/shoulder locks that can break people is well within the rules of the game.

I have no doubt you behave this way I'm def not SHOCKED

 

[drop bear]

Except by your own admission you have broken twice as many people in training and that's what I'm talking about. However even in a tournament your not a professional fighter so why injure another nonprofessional just because you can? Not knowing your about to break is an accident that's not what you said you said if you got the lock in and they don't have the common sense to tap it's not your responsibility when you break them. That's being a Dbag

Sorry. That is just competition. It can be a hard sport and you don't do it if you cant accept the risks.

 

[elder999]

I'd say that as an upper belt, you have an obligation to protect the lower belts from themselves. If you're rolling with a white belt and they don't tap because they're dumb, you won't break their arm and may end up just playing catch and release with them.[/QUOTE]

I call that "multi-tap," or "making them tap like a typewriter"...........typewriter, 'cause I'm old....

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

In the thread “Is grappling better for female self-defense than striking?” the idea of a fundamental pillar of self-defense” came up. Warning – while interesting, it is a long thread with a lot of- this is better than this, you know nothings, I knows all, type of posts. The talk of ‘fundamental pillars’ did start me wondering what different people would include as fundamental pillars of self-defense training. I imagine that the answers might depend on the culture lived in, the type of attacks experienced, capabilities and limitations of those training, length of time available for the training, and a host of other variables. I searched and found the thread “self-Defense???” interesting but different than a discussion on what folks expect or teach as specific pillars of self-defense.

For the start of this exploration (thread drift happens and can be interesting) let’s assumes that the prospective student is married, with small children, and limited training time – say once or twice a week for a year. The kind of attack that she may face, could be assault in a parking garage, road rage, work place violence, domestic abuse, violent robbery, wrong place wrong time violence, and home invasion. Or we can assume that she might be single, so we could add date rape violence, bar/night club violence, woman on woman violence to the list. Attacks against the elderly are brutal as well, and in some areas becoming common place, so we could add healthcare/ nursing home violence to the possible list above.

This video, taken with a nanny cam captures the violence that is common of assaults against women by men. They are violent and brutal. With this video to start – what do you think should form the ‘fundamentals of self-defense training’ for the women described above? Warning, video is violent.

https://youtu.be/qU0EJS3cJIc

Along with the suggested pillars, how about some reasoning of why, and how to train them?

Now, everyone reading this thread can agree that there can be more than one way to solve a problem. For example 2+2=4, 3+1=4, 10-6=4, 16 divided by 4 = 4… which is the correct math formula, depends entirely on context. Let’s try to discuss the messages and not so much the messengers although a little background on the posters experiences if they want, might help to add context?

Thank you

Brian King

Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

In the thread “Is grappling better for female self-defense than striking?” the idea of a fundamental pillar of self-defense” came up. Warning – while interesting, it is a long thread with a lot of- this is better than this, you know nothings, I knows all, type of posts. The talk of ‘fundamental pillars’ did start me wondering what different people would include as fundamental pillars of self-defense training. I imagine that the answers might depend on the culture lived in, the type of attacks experienced, capabilities and limitations of those training, length of time available for the training, and a host of other variables. I searched and found the thread “self-Defense???” interesting but different than a discussion on what folks expect or teach as specific pillars of self-defense.

For the start of this exploration (thread drift happens and can be interesting) let’s assumes that the prospective student is married, with small children, and limited training time – say once or twice a week for a year. The kind of attack that she may face, could be assault in a parking garage, road rage, work place violence, domestic abuse, violent robbery, wrong place wrong time violence, and home invasion. Or we can assume that she might be single, so we could add date rape violence, bar/night club violence, woman on woman violence to the list. Attacks against the elderly are brutal as well, and in some areas becoming common place, so we could add healthcare/ nursing home violence to the possible list above.

This video, taken with a nanny cam captures the violence that is common of assaults against women by men. They are violent and brutal. With this video to start – what do you think should form the ‘fundamentals of self-defense training’ for the women described above? Warning, video is violent.

https://youtu.be/qU0EJS3cJIc

Along with the suggested pillars, how about some reasoning of why, and how to train them?

Now, everyone reading this thread can agree that there can be more than one way to solve a problem. For example 2+2=4, 3+1=4, 10-6=4, 16 divided by 4 = 4… which is the correct math formula, depends entirely on context. Let’s try to discuss the messages and not so much the messengers although a little background on the posters experiences if they want, might help to add context?

Thank you

Brian King

First thing that comes to my mind, so to instill in the female to keep her eyes focused on her attacker, no matter what and don't turn away from him. This way she's better off then in using what she knows for defense. I teach and many times when I up my attack, they close, or turn their eyes away or give me their backs.
Sifu

 

[elder999]

Is the mind of humility relevant at all? I mean acceptance of limitation that the limitation might be overcome? what do you think? Jx

You know what, Jenna? I've been composing a rather lengthy response to this thread-or a few of them, I haven't decided yet-and it occurs to me that humility does have a place in this: in the lead up/interview/monkey dance/verbal part of a confrontation that leads to violence (usually among men, but the rules apply to women as well) one has to exercise a fair amount of humility to try to verbally de-escalate the situation, not the least of which is offering the assailant (potential assailant) a face-saving way out......

....more to the point, for myself, while I'm as flexible as ever, my joints aren't happy about it. While I'm almost as strong as I ever was, I'm not as strong. I'm not nearly as fast at all. While I have what seems to be about the same amount of stamina, it has to endure with a little extra weight.......I'm getting kinda old, and I am not the wild man I was in my 20s and 30s....I can't believe that was a time in my life when I would gladly-madly-have taken on 3 or evn four guys.......hell, I'm not even what I was at 44....I'm closer to a senior menu than I am to 23......and it's a good thing I learned to use a cane as a weapon, since sometimes I actually need one to get up and walk!

 

[Jenna]

You know what, Jenna? I've been composing a rather lengthy response to this thread-or a few of them, I haven't decided yet-and it occurs to me that humility does have a place in this: in the lead up/interview/monkey dance/verbal part of a confrontation that leads to violence (usually among men, but the rules apply to women as well) one has to exercise a fair amount of humility to try to verbally de-escalate the situation, not the least of which is offering the assailant (potential assailant) a face-saving way out......

....more to the point, for myself, while I'm as flexible as ever, my joints aren't happy about it. While I'm almost as strong as I ever was, I'm not as strong. I'm not nearly as fast at all. While I have what seems to be about the same amount of stamina, it has to endure with a little extra weight.......I'm getting kinda old, and I am not the wild man I was in my 20s and 30s....I can't believe that was a time in my life when I would gladly-madly-have taken on 3 or evn four guys.......hell, I'm not even what I was at 44....I'm closer to a senior menu than I am to 23......and it's a good thing I learned to use a cane as a weapon, since sometimes I actually need one to get up and walk!

Yes! So true that humility and maturity would be needed to de-escalate.. I had not even thought of that aspect at all or seen it from the mens point of view.. thank you! As you have described it, it sounds as if this has also required a deal of courage, yes? I feel it shows a high degree of self-assurance to de-escalate when the option is in your hands to end a confrontation physically -and decisevely- In my world those are traits in high demand and but short supply.

As to our physical capabilities perhaps limitation is a chance to deploy our wit and experience to adapt rather than lament the loss of our 20yo selves? The cane is a brilliant example. I wonder are your techniques not more compact and efficient or less flamboyant now maybe?

If we have the humility to have accepted our weakness or limitations with some grace that they can be surmounted then perhaps we are even a step ahead of the person in front of us that want our phone or purse who have not looked at their own limitations? I do not know.. I was able to stop a person from taking my things here at a station by telling to him that I knew he was a good guy trying his best and things were hard for him.. I do not know how that work and but I am in no place to fight any body at the minute so I must acknowledge am partisan in this argument.. Thank you for your reply I am always keen to read whoever is up for teaching or sharing Jxxx

 

[elder999]

.

As to our physical capabilities perhaps limitation is a chance to deploy our wit and experience to adapt rather than lament the loss of our 20yo selves? The cane is a brilliant example. I wonder are your techniques not more compact and efficient or less flamboyant now maybe?
Jxxx

As I've posted elsewhere, I'm a congenital klutz. I've never been "flamboyant" when it comes to martial arts, though I did try........efficient, perhaps....not always so "compact," either.....