Full Contact No Armor Event!

[bart]

Hey There,

I must say the only thing that I find a little "off" is that we can't see any footage without paying. I don't mind "paying" per se, but if the footage is going to be on a DVD that is supposed to teach lessons rather than document, then we're only going to be able to see "the cream of the crop" so to speak. That is, we will only see what has been deemed by the Sayoc people as good enough to be "good press". To me, that's not documentation but propaganda/marketing.

Proponents of this event here have been pushing from the beginning that this was an "event to see". But now rather than an open exchange of information, there has been an invitation to give money to Christopher Sayoc so that we can see snippets of the action between excerpts of "The Hunted". It smells like marketing because it surrounds information that initially seemed open, but is now available only at a "market value."

Honestly, people can gather out in the woods and slug it out like crazy for all I care. That's between them, God, and the Government. Personally, I wouldn't want to put someone's eye out unless it was for something noble beyond the scope of training. I believe in going hard but I believe in doing it wisely and with moderate protection at the least. I like the "Be Friends At The End Of The Day" model. It's hard to do that, going full tilt without gear. If you did it, more power to you. But people of like mind will remain suspicious without objective confirmation. Selections hand picked by the Sayoc Clan with the intention of placing them in a DVD is not objective, especially since one of the points of the DVD will be to say how great Sayoc is and that it is the best FMA.

Also it might be that Sayoc has contracts with LEO's/Military/Etc. But working in the public sector myself, that does nothing but make me believe that the Sayoc Marketing Department is very well organized and aggressive. It reminds me of CPC (http://www.cpcmartialarts.com) except for Cops instead of Kids. Securing contracts with those "not in the know" says nothing for the quality of the product. For those who have office jobs, how often have the execs gone away on a retreat and come back with products and ideas that are at best counterproductive or irrelevant? The answer is "a lot", especially in government. The quality of Sayoc is irrelevant in the acquisition of those contracts. It is however very relevant in whether they keep those contracts. Let's see in 10 years what is still in place. Only then can we truly see how quality effects such contracts.

By the way, my criticism here is not of the Sayoc Fighting System or Kali System. I base my personal judgements in that regard on individuals and not systems. My only exposure to Sayoc is a single seminar at the Inosanto Academy and what I've seen on some video. My criticism here is on the constant protestation surrounding the term "marketing". There is nothing wrong with marketing, especially if it is honestly put forward as such.

 

[Cruentus]

A couple of other things to share.

#1. Rapheal, you did raise some good points on the limitations of fighting with gear that I agree with. That is why I myself prefer to train without gear (except maybe groin, eye, and teeth protection depending on what we are doing). However, I do prefer to excersise a level of control so we can train the next day.

#2. I have my opinions, some good and some doubtful, about this event. But, as they say, opinions are like A-holes anyways. So I just mostly am trying listen, observe, and learn. I don't get my nut in a twist tie over what you or anyone else does, I just try to learn from it and move on. I am confident with what I do where I don't feel the need to try to "me too, me too" the Sayoc group, and where I am not upset because someone might be doing something that I am not. I already know that how I train is effective enough, yet I already understand that I can learn from how others train. In terms of other things like liability, well, if something happends and someone else gets injured or sued due to negligent behavior, then that isn't my problem (hopefully). Again, I'll just learn from someone elses mistake and move on. Now, if this is an attempt to justify ones style (my style is better), or an attempt to take other players from other styles out of the game, then that kind of challange crap will backfire horribly. Again, not my problem (hopefully), and I will just learn from someone elses mistakes and move on.

I am not saying this to slam on others who are being critical of this event, because there may be very justifiable reasons for others to be critical. I am not saying this to justify myself either, or to slam on the Sayoc group. I am only saying this so that you will understand where I am comming from, and so that you will understand that some of the things I say are merely things to think about rather then attacks on this event or on any particular group.

#3. On striking and stylistic differences. Rapheal, you said that you had Modern Arnis represented at the event, and that you have seen Balintawak people play and fight. This is fine. I need to point out something here. You haven't seen the Balintawak that I represent and am a part of (Manong Ted Buot/ GM Anciong Bacon Lineage). Furthermore, you have not seen me personally or my personal group (Tulisan Eskrima Gild which is not art specific), or the FMAC Flint Group (A private club that I am affiliated with, headed by Senior Master Jim Power, Master Mike Power, and Master Rich Parsons). I don't think you have seen the larger Modern Arnis organization that I am affiliated with (WMAA headed by Datu Tim Hartman), but I cannot be sure about that because the WMAA is very large in comparison to the others (and there are many differences among players within the WMAA, meaning that even if it says WMAA that doesn't necessarly mean it represents me).

I mention this because my Modern Arnis and my Balintawak is different then the others out there. I am not going to say better or worse, but I will say different. You may have experienced other Modern Arnis or Balintawak people, but it is not the same as the Balintawak I do, or the Modern Arnis that I do. These differences can make or break the outcome of a fight. I do not claim to know exactly what Tuhon Chris does or (Tuhon?) Keir does, as I have not felt them in action, even though I have seen/felt Sayoc Kali before. Similarly, Feeling Modern Arnis or Balintawak does not mean that you have felt me or my collegues.

I did not take offense to anything you have said, and I mention this hoping that you do not take offense to me. I say this because there are stylistic differences between what I and my collegues do and what you and your people have seen, so technical discussions are sort of a apples to oranges discussions until we have the chance to get together and FEEL the differences. The language of Movement explains things much better then the spoken or written word, as I am sure that you guys have found out in your live training.

#4. One positive thing I'll say here is that I am glad that you guys are training "live," and not just doing dead patterns or drills. Although I question the safety of your event (which I'll have to see some footage to really make a judgement), I am impressed that you guys do include live training against resisting and unpredictable partners. This is something that I am a big advocate of.

#5. On hitting: You have made some good points regarding hitting, Rapheal. The internet is a poor medium for expressing technical detail, but I'll give a few clue's that will help express some aspects of striking from my perspective. And since perceptions (false or true) play a role on what people read, please recognize that these are only clues, and the only true way to explain is through movement and feeling.

I will only express my personal style, but please recognize that this is derived mostly from Balintawak (since we are talking about stick dueling).

- Heavy sticks: I don't try to beat my opponent with speed, I try to beat them with timing. So, I want to wield as heavy of a stick as I can control to get my proper timing. At a personal weight of 233 lbs (from my doctors apt. Monday) and with an ability to do 111 pushups in 60 seconds at a weight of 233 lbs (according to my prep for my Michigan Law enforcement physical exam) I can wield a pretty heavy stick without sacrificing my timing. As long as I don't sacrifice my timing, how fast some else is with their baby stick is not an issue for me.

- Power with heavy sticks: My strategy is not to "whip" my opponent with a witic, leaving a nasty surface wound as I would if I was using a light stick. My strategy is to use my whole bodies force through the heavy stick to impact behind the surface of your skin and shatter bone behind the surface. This is akin to the difference between a belly slap and a punch to the gut. This can mean the difference between ending the fight in one or two strikes, and having the fight last through many strikes into a grappling match.

- Range to pull off the strikes: I prefer a corto range. I am not a largo Mano fighter, but we train to close the gap to the corto range. As you know, it is difficult to prevent someone from closing the gap. Now, at the corto range, my intent is to manage distance to pull off full power strikes. I do this through the utilization of three things: 1. footwork, 2. wieght distribution from one leg to another, 3. body bending at the hip joint (like a boxer with slipping, weaving, etc.). The utlilization of the last 2 is what we call "the lean" or "undayang"(sp?), and is a trademark of the version of Balintawak that I represent. By utilization of these body mechanics, I am able to manage distance in the corto and grappling ranges so that I can execute a full power strike with my heavy stick.

Add timing to this and I can execute a lot more then one full powered strikes with my heavy stick.

- "Anti" grappling - I hate the word anti-grappling because it is often associtated with non-grapplers who want to build false confidence so they can fool themselves into thinking that they don't need to learn to grapple. So I use to word for lack of a better term. However, even though I wouldn't consider grappling my strong suit, I am a grappler just the same, and a stick grappler as well. (side note, I liked some of the takedowns on the Sayoc website, btw.)

Having said that, from the perspective of a grappler, I know that it is difficult to stop someone from closing the gap from the largo to medio to corto to grappling range; you have to knock them out. However, I also know that it is difficult to stay in the grappling range when your opponent is using anti-grappling techniques, such as eyes gouges and fishhooks. Just because you can do the same thing to your opponent, in either case you cannot stay in the grappling range for very long when these techniqes are thrown into the mix, just as the point fighter can't stay in the kicking range for long when grappling is thrown into the mix.

When you add a weapon into the mix, like a stick, your stick becomes your anti-grappler. You can knock out your opponent, or shatter their wrist, knee, collarbone, jaw, hand, etc., etc., through some of the methods I described above. This makes grappling easier to prevent then when you have only your hands to do the job. Furthermore, utilization of the puno, anti-grappling methods, and stick locking/breaking makes your prolonged grappling a less likely occurance.

With all this to consider, if I stick duel, it is less likely going to end with someone tapping out, and it is more likely to end with something shattered.

Ironically, in my lesson with Manong Ted today, we discussed grappling. Although I don't like to quote him on internet forums, this is far too appropriate for the conversation. He said, "Well, if it is catch-as-catch-can, we utilize everying from the top of our heads to the tip of our toes. Even our teeth. We are fighting not just to win...but to survive." I think that sums things up pretty well here.

Conclusion: Rapheal, again I am not argueing, but I am only offereing some things to think about. I wish you guys well on your journey and I wish you all good training. Send my regards to your people.

Be safe.

:supcool:
Paul Janulis
Master of Defense

 

[Sun_Helmet]

I must say the only thing that I find a little "off" is that we can't see any footage without paying.

There will be a quick montage of the fights free on the site.

I don't mind "paying" per se, but if the footage is going to be on a DVD that is supposed to teach lessons rather than document, then we're only going to be able to see "the cream of the crop" so to speak. That is, we will only see what has been deemed by the Sayoc people as good enough to be "good press". To me, that's not documentation but propaganda/marketing.

There's going to be a mixture of footage. The point of the footage is to SHOW mistakes get made, it won't be pretty. There is a sampling of various skill levels. So that's a false assumption. We'll probably edit out repetitive moments that illustrate the same thing.

Proponents of this event here have been pushing from the beginning that this was an "event to see". But now rather than an open exchange of information, there has been an invitation to give money to Christopher Sayoc so that we can see snippets of the action between excerpts of "The Hunted". It smells like marketing because it surrounds information that initially seemed open, but is now available only at a "market value."

Well, we're not going to freely put out footage without adding something beneficial, like instruction to the DVD. That would just open up a whole other issue, and nothing would be gained for it. It would be more like what these folks are stating as a fight club thing where people are just there banging heads for no value. There IS value and the instructional portion will show a variety of options that fights could have ended more efficiently.As with any instruction that is hard earned, those who wish to get it should pay for the lesson.

I like the "Be Friends At The End Of The Day" model. It's hard to do that, going full tilt without gear. If you did it, more power to you. But people of like mind will remain suspicious without objective confirmation. Selections hand picked by the Sayoc Clan with the intention of placing them in a DVD is not objective, especially since one of the points of the DVD will be to say how great Sayoc is and that it is the best FMA.

No bad blood was exchanged from the fights. I think everyone there respected the other and even MORE in the end. The whole difference WAS no negativity was evident PRIOR to the fights. Everyone knew WHY we were documenting it because they were briefed several times before they even got there and AFTER they arrived on site.

I found the last comment unfortunate, because it just shows the very problem with the FMAs as we know it. Systems fight over the dumbest perceived things and it is still such a SMALL subculture that it will remain such. No one here ever insunuated that the DVD was to show that Sayoc is the best FMA. That's rather illogical because the inidvidual doing their training represents themselves first. In fact, I reinforced that this was for the benefit of all FMAs.

Also it might be that Sayoc has contracts with LEO's/Military/Etc. But working in the public sector myself, that does nothing but make me believe that the Sayoc Marketing Department is very well organized and aggressive.

One reason the Sayoc System is well organized and united is because we have a bigger picture beyond intertribal squabbles and downplaying other systems. It is an unfortunate trait that we've all seen negatively affect so many martial arts, even beyond the FMA. We realize that Unity is much stronger than trying to do this all by yourself. We've seen other instructors from several systems plead to join our system and we've turned them down. Why? Because they exhibited that they didn't respect where they came from. Not even their old instructors. They didn't respect the culture or the gifts left to them. They were bringing baggage in that we didn't need. That's on an individual basis not a style or system one.

One can see it here. People are more than happy to throw insults sight unseen. Pick at this or that. It doesn't harm the Sayoc system one bit, but it does exhibit why others wonder how such unity and trust between Sayoc Instructors have been maintained for nearly thirty years. You won't see a Sayoc Kali student bad mouth ANY FMA system, nor ridicule them. I think deeds are more important and proof can be seen online and elsewhere.

People end up making assumptions and then run with it.

Securing contracts with those "not in the know" says nothing for the quality of the product. For those who have office jobs, how often have the execs gone away on a retreat and come back with products and ideas that are at best counterproductive or irrelevant? The answer is "a lot", especially in government. The quality of Sayoc is irrelevant in the acquisition of those contracts. It is however very relevant in whether they keep those contracts. Let's see in 10 years what is still in place. Only then can we truly see how quality effects such contracts.

I think it is VERY relevant because we didn't come in from the outside in. The military folks were students prior to joining the military. They excelled and gained trust of their comrades. Nothing was earned that wasn't sweated over and proven. From there we've had students excel in various on field missions and received recognition. Their buddies then asked where they got this training from. We then prove to those guys that we knew what we were doing. To imply otherwise attempts to invalidate the likes of those I've listed here. If you ask the people in the know they are the REAL deal.

As per time, it's only getting better. We've done this for several years now and there's MORE interest than ever. They have SEEN value in our approach and want MORE.

My criticism here is on the constant protestation surrounding the term "marketing". There is nothing wrong with marketing, especially if it is honestly put forward as such.

The only people that needed to know that the fights would be included in the DVD were the individuals involved. Once they were okay with that they went about their business. Anyone who wasn't cool with it, knew so before ever stepping out of their home.

I don't think there's anything wrong with marketing either. When someone asked about the DVD I answered, it isn't like that person was a plant (a Sayoc rep). I was pointing out that Paul here was doing a bit of it himself and implying that my answers (to THEIR questions) were some form of devious plot to promote DVDs. Don't worry... we're VERY open about blatant marketing.LOL

--Rafael--

 

[Cruentus]

Hi Paul,

For the first time I took a moment to read through your Gild page. Very impressive and I really like your approach to rank.

That's all I had to say =)

Kyle Short

Thank you sir!

artyon:

Paul Janulis

 

[Tgace]

One can see it here. People are more than happy to throw insults sight unseen. Pick at this or that. It doesn't harm the Sayoc system one bit, but it does exhibit why others wonder how such unity and trust between Sayoc Instructors have been maintained for nearly thirty years. You won't see a Sayoc Kali student bad mouth ANY FMA system, nor ridicule them. I think deeds are more important and proof can be seen online and elsewhere.

I dont believe anybody is being "insulting" maybe poking a little fun at something that is at best illegal and at worst inviting needless maiming or death. If Im risking my life, its going to be for something of value. I dont want my obituary to read "Killed while trying to prove how good a stick fighter he was...."

As to the risk of getting injured or killed skydiving/driving/ et. al. yeah...but thats not part of the package unless something goes wrong. This is akin to diving out of the plane, having somebody toss the chute out after you and having to put it on before hitting the ground. The metaphor doesn't work.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

So I just mostly am trying listen, observe, and learn. I don't get my nut in a twist tie over what you or anyone else does, I just try to learn from it and move on. I am confident with what I do where I don't feel the need to try to "me too, me too" the Sayoc group, and where I am not upset because someone might be doing something that I am not. I already know that how I train is effective enough, yet I already understand that I can learn from how others train.

That's says a LOT about your skills and confidence in your abilities and training. I agree and respect that. I feel the same way.

#3. On striking and stylistic differences. Rapheal, you said that you had Modern Arnis represented at the event, and that you have seen Balintawak people play and fight. This is fine. I need to point out something here. You haven't seen the Balintawak that I represent and am a part of (Manong Ted Buot/ GM Anciong Bacon Lineage). Furthermore, you have not seen me personally or my personal group (Tulisan Eskrima Gild which is not art specific), or the FMAC Flint Group (A private club that I am affiliated with, headed by Senior Master Jim Power, Master Mike Power, and Master Rich Parsons). I don't think you have seen the larger Modern Arnis organization that I am affiliated with (WMAA headed by Datu Tim Hartman), but I cannot be sure about that because the WMAA is very large in comparison to the others (and there are many differences among players within the WMAA, meaning that even if it says WMAA that doesn't necessarly mean it represents me).

I've met guys like Zack from Balintawak and Rick Mitchell, so perhaps I haven't met you guys yet. I'd like to someday. From Modern Arnis, I've met so many that I can't keep count... there's a LOT of you.LOL

Let me see... I've met Max Pallen, Jeff Delaney, Doug Pierre and Sayoc Kali's Tuhon Ray Dionaldo toured with Master Presas for awhile. I know Master Presas visited our school in Florida to pay respects to Tuhon Chris Sayoc's father once many years ago.

I do not claim to know exactly what Tuhon Chris does or (Tuhon?) Keir does, as I have not felt them in action, even though I have seen/felt Sayoc Kali before. Similarly, Feeling Modern Arnis or Balintawak does not mean that you have felt me or my collegues.

We'd be more than happy to meet you all someday. Perhaps, that may happen someday. I think the better we know one another the stronger the FMA becomes.

I did not take offense to anything you have said, and I mention this hoping that you do not take offense to me. I say this because there are stylistic differences between what I and my collegues do and what you and your people have seen, so technical discussions are sort of a apples to oranges discussions until we have the chance to get together and FEEL the differences. The language of Movement explains things much better then the spoken or written word, as I am sure that you guys have found out in your live training.

I agree 100 percent. I know many people finally understand Sayoc Kali after they have actually met us in person.

#4. One positive thing I'll say here is that I am glad that you guys are training "live," and not just doing dead patterns or drills. Although I question the safety of your event (which I'll have to see some footage to really make a judgement), I am impressed that you guys do include live training against resisting and unpredictable partners. This is something that I am a big advocate of.

Thanks.

#5. On hitting: You have made some good points regarding hitting, Rapheal. The internet is a poor medium for expressing technical detail, but I'll give a few clue's that will help express some aspects of striking from my perspective. And since perceptions (false or true) play a role on what people read, please recognize that these are only clues, and the only true way to explain is through movement and feeling.

I will only express my personal style, but please recognize that this is derived mostly from Balintawak (since we are talking about stick dueling).

- Heavy sticks: I don't try to beat my opponent with speed, I try to beat them with timing. So, I want to wield as heavy of a stick as I can control to get my proper timing. At a personal weight of 233 lbs (from my doctors apt. Monday) and with an ability to do 111 pushups in 60 seconds at a weight of 233 lbs (according to my prep for my Michigan Law enforcement physical exam) I can wield a pretty heavy stick without sacrificing my timing. As long as I don't sacrifice my timing, how fast some else is with their baby stick is not an issue for me.

You'll like the way we do our stick push ups then! Remember I stated a lighter stick not a baby stick. 233 is LIGHT in some of our circles... LOL

- Power with heavy sticks: My strategy is not to "whip" my opponent with a witic, leaving a nasty surface wound as I would if I was using a light stick. My strategy is to use my whole bodies force through the heavy stick to impact behind the surface of your skin and shatter bone behind the surface. This is akin to the difference between a belly slap and a punch to the gut. This can mean the difference between ending the fight in one or two strikes, and having the fight last through many strikes into a grappling match.

We don't use many witiks either. However, you have to make sure that timed strike is 100 percent effective. At a high level, after that the stick has to be in position to counter their submission locks with their stick.

Range to pull off the strikes: I prefer a corto range. I am not a largo Mano fighter, but we train to close the gap to the corto range. As you know, it is difficult to prevent someone from closing the gap. Now, at the corto range, my intent is to manage distance to pull off full power strikes. I do this through the utilization of three things: 1. footwork, 2. wieght distribution from one leg to another, 3. body bending at the hip joint (like a boxer with slipping, weaving, etc.). The utlilization of the last 2 is what we call "the lean" or "undayang"(sp?), and is a trademark of the version of Balintawak that I represent. By utilization of these body mechanics, I am able to manage distance in the corto and grappling ranges so that I can execute a full power strike with my heavy stick.

Yes, that's what we call body shifting in Sayoc Kali.

Add timing to this and I can execute a lot more then one full powered strikes with my heavy stick.

We've found that it has to be clean and that the opponent is not doing the same or covering up intentionally to close the gap. Staying in corto range leaves one open in the reactionary gap.

Having said that, from the perspective of a grappler, I know that it is difficult to stop someone from closing the gap from the largo to medio to corto to grappling range; you have to knock them out. However, I also know that it is difficult to stay in the grappling range when your opponent is using anti-grappling techniques, such as eyes gouges and fishhooks. Just because you can do the same thing to your opponent, in either case you cannot stay in the grappling range for very long when these techniqes are thrown into the mix, just as the point fighter can't stay in the kicking range for long when grappling is thrown into the mix.

Well as the DVD shows the grappling range is SAFER than the corto range that you work on which is probably why you work on it the most, because it is the most dangerous space. That was the point of my post. We have just that type of stuff in the fights going on. BOTH opponents have to CHOOSE to maintain corto to duke it out. Usually one will either submit or close/back away.

Furthermore, utilization of the puno, anti-grappling methods, and stick locking/breaking makes your prolonged grappling a less likely occurance.

We count the use of punyo as part of stick grappling. Anything that happens in the ground position we count as stick grappling. Note that my earlier post stated the fact that the STICK was an EQUALIZER. So I agree with you there. However, the fights didn't end itrike of a stick on the grpound... it ended when the guy began to push away from the smaller hits and got caught in again the corto range which includes the range when leg is already standing up. (like a stack)

With all this to consider, if I stick duel, it is less likely going to end with someone tapping out, and it is more likely to end with something shattered.

Albeit in CORTO RANGE.

"Well, if it is catch-as-catch-can, we utilize everying from the top of our heads to the tip of our toes. Even our teeth. We are fighting not just to win...but to survive." I think that sums things up pretty well here.

That's a similar quote I often use when people ask about the FMA and why the ancient art was never transcribed. "It's because they were too busy trying to survive."

Thanks for the discussion Paul. I don't see many parts where I disagree.

--Rafael--

 

[Sun_Helmet]

I dont believe anybody is being "insulting" maybe poking a little fun at something that is at best illegal and at worst inviting needless maiming or death. If Im risking my life, its going to be for something of value. I dont want my obituary to read "Killed while trying to prove how good a stick fighter he was...."

Well you have a false premise on why people werethere.

As to the risk of getting injured or killed skydiving/driving/ et. al. yeah...but thats not part of the package unless something goes wrong. This is akin to diving out of the plane, having somebody toss the chute out after you and having to put it on before hitting the ground. The metaphor doesn't work.

The metaphor fits. Before you had people jump out of planes with chutes, the instructor themselves have done it. They didn't do it on a simulator. You bring them along and train them til they are ready. Sooner or later they have to actually jump out of the plane. Sooner or later you have to drive without the safety instructor and their emergency brakes... especially if you will be a driving instructor yourself.

Jumping out without a chute and someone tossing it out for you isn't even part of any sky diving protocol.

Certainly one can go through, and not do this type of training but in Sayoc Kali we are about gathering useful information for others. If one of us haven't made something work for real, then we won't teach it. As stated earlier, YOU do not have to do it, but the footage supports certain things that maybe some of us wished we had with us way back. It is imperfect and raw in many ways. There's some techniques that aren't done correctly there's some done beautifully. At least it is there to study and IMPROVE on. We know we have already improved on some things.

--Rafael--

 

[Sun_Helmet]

How can I be defensively or even offensively marketing anything?.

Read your posts. Figure it out.

2. No the full contact wasn't a concern nor was the injury risk - I have accepted the level of risk for actions in the past and will do so in the future ...the lack of clear information, openly given (don't give me this 'security' reason because it is a simple issue of only letting in the registered list of players and all others are not allowed in the door - all this secrecy stuff is 'mysterious' more than 'tactical'), reasonable protective gear or mention of insurance/liability/legitimacy/EMT... was what concerned me. I have YET to get a straight answer from you about any of these issues since you were the one I was asking most recently - if you feel that the information is accessable and easy to find - get it and answer those questions posted/directed at you.

What's this "get it and answer those questions" stuff?
Does that really work in your world?

3. As far as the head shots...what's the point. Much like my military time, the idea that you need to train being 'wet, cold and miserable' is BS, so is the idea that you have to get hit in the head, full contact in order to know what it will do. I know what it will do from safer and just as 'real' variations that reduce the risk of concussions and death/brain damage.

So why ask where the fights will be?
Why act like you were going to go?
You never had any intention of going did you, or did you think head shots wouldn't happen at all?

4. You might be a good armchair critic, but you aren't doing so well at explaining how this was a legal, insured, resonsible or philosophically aligned event based on the Sayoc disclaimer. You talk to your lawyer/leo consultants, give us quoted testamonials ABOUT THIS EVENT in reference to use of force and then we will see. I have read the testamonials from the people on the website, they all praise the art and its 'fightness' but show me in the curriculum/system that issues of state laws and use of force continuums are being taught/applied. Show me where this type of event fits into the systematic approach of tactical development.

Pretty amusing for someone who hasn't participated in anything BUT armchair criticism on this thread.

Why do I need to satisfy your need for this info?

5. "Skill sets to be practical...." practical for WHAT? That is what tactical training is about: Context. I can train someone to do a backflip and it might be the greatest backflip in the world but, outside of a tournament competition, it is going to have a very small justified application in training.

That's because your tactical approach may be totally different from ours. Perhaps that is what irks you so much. Something seems 'mysterious' to you when it is plain as day for us. Hey, if what you do works for you - more power to you. I KNOW what we do WORKS.
Let it go.

You are talking about building validity and training models based on a duel between two willing fighters carrying rattan fighting to 'knock out/submission'... how does that help the soldier/leo/civilian contextually and directly? Especially when each of those contextual applications are LOADED with considerations that the dueling environment won't even touch.

That's because you weren't asked DIRECTLY by our clients about certain issues and concepts. There's certain principles in the fights that become readily apparent to them. That they wouldn't FULLY grasp or have faith in until they see it for themselves. You've somehow boxed yourself in thinking that the duel has no purpose. Fine. We have found tons of info that applies. Minute details. The stick duel reveals these to those who are looking for them. You seem to have your own agenda - we disagree.

Basically it doesn't. How long do I have before his back up/friends/cops/... can jump in? How far is my nearest support/safe place to get to? Which way is good for me to escape? How do I take this guy out and not give away my position or comprimise my team/squad/unit? Which way do I have to push this guy/guys to keep them away from my wife/child/intended victim/injured buddy?

That's a broad picture.
Perhaps that's the problem here.
You're thinking so broadly on the uselessness of a 'duel' aspect that you miss the fine print.

All questions/problems that won't even be addressed so how is your stick fight model 'practical' for these types of needs?

That's because those are issues have already been addressed. Those are not the details the clients inquire about. They already have that.

I was in the military, participated in the training and was trained as an NCO (as all NCO's are leader and teacher) to be a military instructor, so I think I understand what the military mission prep/needs fairly well. I also know that this type of 'technical expert' contracting has its place but will have to be modified to fit the context...modification from stick dueling to combat is going to be a BIG stretch IMO.

Don't worry, WE do the modifications.

Until you can reasonably prove to me that it was a legal event and can reasonably explain how this type of event is aligned philosophically within that disclaimer about knowing and working within the use of force laws, I don't need to read the 'flip the script' technique of trying to undermine my comments. Doesn't prove the event legallity/validity or back up your claims when you seem to be acting in an "unofficial Wendy's spokesman" capacity.

See that's where we differ. I don't NEED to do anything for you. We're doing our thing and that's that. You're some internet forum expert. That's great.

Several of our guys just returned from Iraq and Afghanistan.
MANY have gone back.
I just returned from Beirut last year.

We didn't see any Wendys there.
Although there's actually a HARD ROCK in Beirut...LOL.

--Rafael--
----------
---------
---------
--------

 

[GAB]

Yes Rafael,

I was usually the one yielding the stick and the other were either combative with hands or other items that were not considered so dangerous as to the use of deadly force.

It was standard practice in my years if the stick was taken away from you, it was time for deadly force. In the hands of a criminal who does not want to submit, them getting your stick was a bad scene.

After reading all the various posts, I do see your side from what you are saying.

But to go back to my post about selling DVDs I think there is more to that then you want to admit..

Simple request's go unanswered, others are just redirected, meet might with might, and then change your angle, you are doing good in the verbal combat, how about some answers.

Sounds like quite a few military, I figure Uncle Sam (tax payer)is picking up the bill for injuries.

How many in the various structured and unstructured combat scenerios were involved?

I really like Tommy Lee Jones, so I will have to follow it up some more, I think it is interesting the way you put me, as the bad guy so you can justify your Marketing angle.

Good Gamesmanship quick wits. The problem with it, is it, smacks of rougue conduct as I have said before.

Regards, Gary

ps: When I was working Metro it was not uncommon/most likley to have...

1 shotgun per man in veh. 12G 00 buck 2 man cars...
2 guns on each person
1 baton per man
1 or 2 saps per man
sap gloves
1 or 2 flashlights in veh per man
1 knife on you,
Some even carried a 3rd gun on there ankle also, this was in the days of the 6 shot rev 38. And an xtra 50 rounds per man, 38 and a box of 00.

But then we were not your run of the mill, we were a strike force and deployed in the highest crime areas on a daily bases.

Now the average officer with the high capacity mags, has more on his person
then we did with all the extras.. Good for them...

Hope this helps when I talk about experience..

Regards, Gary

 

[Tgace]

Why not "no rules" knife fighting events??

 

[Tgace]

Oh...BTW. Skydiving isnt the intentional use of deadly force against another person. Ive skydived, nobody tried to whack me across the head with a stick. Apples + oranges.

 

[Bester]

Because it is hard to look like a "Tough Guy" while trying to hold in ones insides.

Careful there Mr. Gerace, you might just give these "Highly Skilled Combaticons" another marketble idea for their next DVD series.

Seriously, I happen to agree in a small way with their accessment of various training methods. The padded / flexi crap does really turn into slap and flail fests that bear little in common with true combat. But, it does serve its main purpose, which is safety.

Hell, I work gun disarms with rubber guns. I've done stuff with loaded paintball guns as well. Immediate feedback, close to realistic response. No big gapping holes. Oh yeah, I do wear eye protection when doing so. That whole I'd be an real moron not to.

I'm sorry, but just heading into the woods to beat each other up is stupid. I used to know people who did dumb things and called it "Training". Watching that clip way back I only had 2 thoughts.
1- So the big guy can toss the little guy around and choke him out. Wow.
2- Standard "Tough Guy" stuff.

But hey, you have got all this free publicity here, and elsewhere to help sell move DVDs. More power to you as this extended infomercial continues. You'l please excuse me, I have to go back to pissing off the Ninjas now. :/

 

[KyleShort]

This is going to be interesting, because I am actually going to come to the defense of Sun. But first I will state that I do not agree with an event of this type. Primarily because it violates my first rule of self defense, which is to avoid activities that have a very high potential for harm. I don't eat McDonald's, I don't drive a motorcycle, and I only come to rolling stops in neighborhoods with high potential for car jackings. In this event, with the rules expressed as they have been in this thread, in seems evident that the threat of grievous, life lasting (or taking) injury was very real. I lost a knee once to martial arts training and I would never again walk into a situation where it is very likely that I would lose any eye, teeth or whatever else. When I spar stick to stick, I wear armor. Not because I can't take pain, or even a broken bone (still a very real possibility with armor). I wear armor so that I do not needlessly expose myself to more lasting injuries such as busted trachea c-rings, popped eyes, split knee caps and shattered joints.

To me an event like this violates at least my concept of what self defense is. However it seems to hold true to everything that I know about comeptitive sport. My buddy is a soccer player and by the time he reaches his mid thirties, he will be reduced to a mere hobble, a grotesque image of what he once was. He has traded his knees to be at the top of his game. Those who enter events such as these decide to gamble. They willingly accept the risk in exchange for the potential of becoming a greater fighter. But self defense is not about accepting risk of life threatening danger. It is about avoiding it at all cost, and getting out of it as fast as possible when your back is to the wall.

That having been said, I do see value in this type of training. Of course there is value in getting your stomach stappled to lose weight, but I would not condone it. Now what are the benefits to this type of training event?

1. You may in fact discover more truths about your skills and right now the best person to substantiate the claim is Sun, because he was there. You might even discover that there is no such thing as a friendly no rules weapons match, because the participant's own moral/ethical limiters act as the rules of the match. Good learnings would come from this no matter what.

2. I firmly believe that 90% of self defense is attitude. This level of training would introduce the participant to a heightened sense of danger and give them exposure to making their attitude what it needs to be in order to survive. It also gives you exposure to a new realm of adrenal dump.

3.Regarding the comment of the big guy manhandling the smaller guy. Bester, I think that you are looking at this one sided. It might not be shocking that the big guy was capable of doing what he did, but what did the little guy learn from the experience?

To each his own. I would never compete in such an event willingly, but I hope those that did were able to achieve their goals and walk away better because of it.

 

[f.m.a.c.student]

I cant belive I read the whole thing all seven pages
I have know dought that you should be able to knock someone out with one hit to the head.


Mike

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry to be away from all the action as I sit here in Schipol Airport reading through the many posts!!

So this event ruffled a few feathers!! Who cares? I think too many people are thinking of this opportunity as one similar to the many Stick tournaments out there in the FMA world. I do not believe that was the intent, but as a learning tool it can be an experience that many will eventually try in their training.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Because it is hard to look like a "Tough Guy" while trying to hold in ones insides.

I agree. There's a HUGE difference between stick and blade and those that keep asking the same question should check their own training standards.

Careful there Mr. Gerace, you might just give these "Highly Skilled Combaticons" another marketble idea for their next DVD series.

Can we use that "quote?"

Watching that clip way back I only had 2 thoughts.
1- So the big guy can toss the little guy around and choke him out. Wow.
2- Standard "Tough Guy" stuff.:

1. The clip was NOT a match that was part of the instructional section. That 'little guy' is probably one of the toughest guys you'll ever meet. If you ever met him, you would know. He was assisting in the instructional section.

2. So Standard that NO ONE has ANY footage of this kind of instruction in the whole history of martial arts instructional tapes.

Btw, the 'big guy' has fought some of the best stick guys out there. His last non Sayoc match was against Eric Knaus, the uncontested best fighter from the Dog Brothers. Knaus didn't weigh as much but towers over most mortals in skill, power and height.

On this 'veiled marketing innuendo'. If you check around, we are not very shy in promoting product. We have ads in magazines, and place info in forums when our dvds or seminars come around. We probably have some of that in this forum on another thread somewhere. I think some folks are looking WAYYY too hard into something that doesn't even matter.

I don't know about anyone else's marketing campaigns, but wading through several pages of back and forth is not my idea of streamlined marketing.

I only entered this thread due to some of the silly comments and misinformation being passed on. The only positive is getting to 'meet' some of folks that have lineage to other systems I respect.

--Rafael--

 

[Sun_Helmet]

I have know dought that you should be able to knock someone out with one hit to the head.
Mike

You need a clean shot, and someone who stays in corto for that clean shot. It is possible and can definitely happen... however, Sayoc Kali excels in corto range and everyone in the event knew the dangers of that range especially against one another. So they knew that the KO shot would be in that danger zone.

I know you probably know this already. If you didn't, ask yourself why.

--Rafael--

 

[Sun_Helmet]

I wear armor so that I do not needlessly expose myself to more lasting injuries such as busted trachea c-rings, popped eyes, split knee caps and shattered joints.

Very astute observation Kyle. As stated earlier, we tried to dissuade people from entering the event and what people misinterpret as 'mysterious' evasion of info was a way to filter out the lookeeloos, wannabees, glory hounds, fight club types. If one had previous major injuries they were also out. Human nature allows people to be foolish and take unnecessary risks when they think their pride is on the line if friends, students or family are watching. When you make them WORK for the info and they SHOW their true intent, and AGREE personally to the grounds we lay out, only then do they get the necessary information. Those guys showed up and were given extensive preparation on what this was all about. They become accountable for themselves. They knew what the documentation was for. It wasn't for 'legend building' especially in such a small community - that really means nothing. We've seen and worked with REAL living legends and 90 percent of them are not known by the FMA community or the general populace. To us in Sayoc, they are the true legends.

So for those who want info for free, can demand all they want. You can read in their posts that they weren't showing up anyway. Okay maybe one guy might try his 'escape and evasion' tactics which will only leave us with stuff we already knew. We do that with paint ball and world class trackers... at night, that's a whole different exercise. In daylight, we'd find him in no time. gee, wonderful... thanks for wasting our time.

Now what do you do if you run out of ammo and are set up on a one on one scenario. Never happens? Interesting, because that's not what we've heard. It doesn't take too much imagination to know your primary weapon can be lost, and that you might need time to gain your secondary. Or that you might get stuck in a dark cave. You don't have a blade but managed to pick up an impact weapon. Perhaps because your hand got shot or injured. "But some guy on the internet told us that this stuff NEVER happens... I mean we trained HARD not to get into this situation. No one EVER isolated certain problems or studied them in this much detail, they said it wasn't necessary. I read it in MARTIALTALK for pete's sake!!!"

Well, what if you CAN still fight with that impact weapon to gain access to a firearm. Or learned ways to disarm an impact weapon effectively. You drilled to learn corto range well, you learned the other ranges, perhaps you yourself didn't go one on one with someone but you SAW proof of what COULD happen no matter what skill level. You KNOW this can work.

Well then turn the switch on and go brother.

To each his own. I would never compete in such an event willingly, but I hope those that did were able to achieve their goals and walk away better because of it.

Excellent points Kyle. As we stated earlier, it just isn't for the participant's benefits, but PRIMARILY for those who observe the DVD that can point out what they lack in their own training, even see something that VALIDATES their training. They will understand that mistakes and missed opportunities do happen, that's what all this is about... getting better.

They are the target audience.

They are the ones who will get the most out of the DVD. They will add to the moves, they will refine or improve the moves. That's for the betterment of the FMA. That's for true evolution of the arts. Those who will look at the fights to boost up their self important ego or their 'style' will do so because they are mainly doing their own 'legend building'. Those who look for 'fight club' footage won't get anything but a thrill. We have more important things to do.

You can see from the posts that many here think that this event was considered merely a fight club stick event with perhaps a ref, maybe no ref. That it was haphazard or that it was uncontrolled by outside forces. That's how we wanted it to look. Because when there's control or perceived control- people ACT braver or foolish.

Not once in their negativity did anyone bother to think that several unnamed individuals may have also been in attendance to observe the fights (but no outside lookeeloos), as well as other precautions were setup.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST but the FUTURE"

 

[loki09789]

So why ask where the fights will be?
Why act like you were going to go?
You never had any intention of going did you, or did you think head shots wouldn't happen at all?

Pretty amusing for someone who hasn't participated in anything BUT armchair criticism on this thread.

Why do I need to satisfy your need for this info?

That's because your tactical approach may be totally different from ours. Perhaps that is what irks you so much. Something seems 'mysterious' to you when it is plain as day for us. Hey, if what you do works for you - more power to you. I KNOW what we do WORKS.
Let it go.

That's because you weren't asked DIRECTLY by our clients about certain issues and concepts. There's certain principles in the fights that become readily apparent to them. That they wouldn't FULLY grasp or have faith in until they see it for themselves. You've somehow boxed yourself in thinking that the duel has no purpose. Fine. We have found tons of info that applies. Minute details. The stick duel reveals these to those who are looking for them. You seem to have your own agenda - we disagree.

That's a broad picture.
Perhaps that's the problem here.
You're thinking so broadly on the uselessness of a 'duel' aspect that you miss the fine print.

That's because those are issues have already been addressed. Those are not the details the clients inquire about. They already have that.

Don't worry, WE do the modifications.

See that's where we differ. I don't NEED to do anything for you. We're doing our thing and that's that. You're some internet forum expert. That's great.

Several of our guys just returned from Iraq and Afghanistan.
MANY have gone back.
I just returned from Beirut last year.

We didn't see any Wendys there.
Although there's actually a HARD ROCK in Beirut...LOL.

--Rafael--
----------
---------
---------
--------

No, I didn't intend to go when I couldn't get ANY direct answers in an open announcment...if it is legit, it can be discussed openly.

Yeah, I'm armchairing here. Wasn't at the event personally, but I am also not selling the proof that what I am doing is valid. I AM concerned as a 'member of the FMA community' that you have posted would benefit from such events because I don't think it benefits the community of martial arts as a whole when the students you are trying to train will not be able to benefit from the real world lessons if they are seriously injured/killed in the name of training. There is a legal term of collateral liability for who will be held accountable for anything.

Bart has a good angle on the marketting tactics of this event.

Let me be clear on this stuff that has expanded beyond the event and the information delivery/availability around it:

Sayoc system is fine. I don't have a problem with the system or people in it - as far as I know .

My main concern and criticism is that this type of event is counter productive to real world training because it is not reality, nor does it enhance/simulate/support reality beyond the stick on stick duel.

If this idea that you have to do it 'no rules', 'full contact' and to 'knock out/submission' it the center piece to real training, why don't military units give opfor real bullets during training exercises? Why were there developments like Shinai/Bokken/blunted weapons for non ballistic/lethal force for bladed weapons training? Because it is hard for a student to use what they learned in that 'real' training when they are dieing/dead or permanently maimed...but hey, the system seniors can use that experience to improve the system based on those lab rat actions.

As far as the tactical/application appropriate modifications...who is better suited to do that, the user or the techincal expert who is vastly knowledgeable on that one thing but not nearly as knowledgeable as the 'topic expert' who is going to be applying it (Military/LEO)? Please explain to me how you have modified stick dueling appropriately into the average police force continuum or a military person's rules of engagement (which can change from theater to theater/mission to mission) or a civlians use of force/state penal code.

Remember my above comment: Not a bash on the whole package, but a criticism on this no armor/full contact/no rules/closed door practice because it doesn't elevate the martial arts/FMA community in my opinion, it perpetuates the myth that ALL martial artists/FMAers practice with no regard for responsible use of force within the current society but are trying to test their mettle based on some misguided interpretation of 'manliness/warriorship' dug up and manipulated from the past. Leaving that impression by actions/events like this only adds to the negative perception and the resistance from the uninitiated to see the benefits/practicallity and personal empowerment of martial arts training.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Oh...BTW. Skydiving isnt the intentional use of deadly force against another person. Ive skydived, nobody tried to whack me across the head with a stick. Apples + oranges.

So that's why you tried to make the metaphor work for YOU previously riiiigggghtttt?

--Rafael--