Full Contact No Armor Event!
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[email protected]
Green Belt
Hello Again Everyone,
Again, this event is not for everyone, but it is an option if one chooses to try it out and fight in the matches. Matches of this type do happen in other countries, as other societies lack the litagenous nature being further developed and pushed here in the USA.
If you are hesitant to fight, don't do it.
Train Hard it is the Way!
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.
Again, this event is not for everyone, but it is an option if one chooses to try it out and fight in the matches. Matches of this type do happen in other countries, as other societies lack the litagenous nature being further developed and pushed here in the USA.
If you are hesitant to fight, don't do it.
Train Hard it is the Way!
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.
[email protected] said:
Personally, I like the idea. I also think it is good to train for real occasionally. I also believe in control.
I would have loved to made it to this event or even competed, I have been working all week to clear my work schedule to try to get out of town to go to this. One week's notice was a little short for me. Yet, I do appreciate the offer. I also was previously invited to another event, which makes it hard to back out on that as well.
I agree that it is not for everyone.
I agree that people could get hurt.
I agree that it happens in other countries and cultures much more often.
I respect that an offer was made and they were and are willing to allow unknowns walk in and play with others.
I do have a few questions though:
1) May I also wear eye protection - aka Smith and Wesson Clear Eye Shields.
2) How are the match ups done?
2 a ) Is it done by age?
2 b ) Is it done by weight?
2 c ) Is it done by rank?
2 d ) Is it done by years of training?
Thank you for your future Reply.
:asian:
Flatlander
Grandmaster
You know, this type of event is far beyond the level that I personally would feel comfortable exposing myself to willingly, at this point in my training. I do believe, however, that there is a place for this. For some, this is the next logical progression in the furtherance of their training. There will be the few who have attained a point in their training where they need to see what actually works, and what does not. What their *actual* response will be after getting smoked in the head - whether they really can defang that snake when it's trying to bite them.Tgace said:
As I said, I'm not there yet. I will be one day, though.
I do have some other questions.....
Are they refereed? At what point is there a stoppage in action?
You know what I do like about this event? That it is not open to spectators, only participants. I really like that. It makes it all about the training, not about the show. That's a real positive point.
Tgace
Grandmaster
What happens when somebody winds up in the hospital? Im not judging the "rightness or wrongness" of the event, just that in this country you should be ready to accept either death or imprisonment before entering an event like this. Is it a win by knockout or unable to continue type thing??
never mind I went back to post #1 and see that it is.....lawsuit waiting to happen IMHO.
never mind I went back to post #1 and see that it is.....lawsuit waiting to happen IMHO.
Like I said, risk and reward. Is it worth it to you? Go for it.Flatlander said:
Tom brings up a good point about the social/legal ramifications of entering an event like this and it's appropriateness within the culture you live in. Say you get into a street altercation, and end up breaking up the guy really bad - righteously, but he/she/they are really damaged now.
If you have a history of ever entering such events with the obvious disregard for the legallity around it, you are setting yourself up for failure in the legal arena of battle if you have to justify your use of force with this in your history. I can just picture what an attorney would do with this information while you are trying to defend your use of force. You willingly entered a 'pit fight' that put you in a position that you would be using a 'club' to 'beat' another person, possibly on the head (deadly force in most states)...and so on. Just not something I want to have to add to the other things that can be spun against me if I have to defend use of force ever.
This idea of 'testing yourself' is one of the reasons that I joined the service. If the purpose and goal of your martial arts training is to 'do it for real' then military service, LEO work, even private security/executive protection/bouncing are legitimate, accepted venues to use sanctioned violence. These venues (as opposed to the real world equivalent of a "Fight Club" setting) also incorporate the issues of justification, procedure and tactical judgement - so martial arts is 'put to the test' within a real world context and you have to make tactical 'street' decisions along with the application of physical techniques.
This stuff is not that. This is dueling plain and simple. Test of physical skill, but not self defense skill.
I think every one of us who studies the arts asks the obvious 'Can I do it for real?".
This is of course 1 way to find out. One can only go so far with padded or flexible sticks, or the 'flail-fests' that most 'full contact stick fights' (the ones with the armour) seem to become.
Personally, it's not my cup of tea, and more risk than I feel comfortable taking myself, but as long as the full risks are openly known, to each their own.
I doubt there is any insurance available, and do hope they do have qualified medics on hand for the probable injuries that will occur.
I think the concerns that have been brought up are justified, and have been well presented. For now however I believe it's up to the events presenters and any participants to keep up updated on the event.
This is of course 1 way to find out. One can only go so far with padded or flexible sticks, or the 'flail-fests' that most 'full contact stick fights' (the ones with the armour) seem to become.
Personally, it's not my cup of tea, and more risk than I feel comfortable taking myself, but as long as the full risks are openly known, to each their own.
I doubt there is any insurance available, and do hope they do have qualified medics on hand for the probable injuries that will occur.
I think the concerns that have been brought up are justified, and have been well presented. For now however I believe it's up to the events presenters and any participants to keep up updated on the event.
KyleShort
Green Belt
Steve,
Doesn't a weapon fight with NO RULES seem to violate some of the premises of Ninpo? I mean, if you are really talking no rules then you are going into that expecting to really hurt someone...if you want to test your true self defense techniques, truly, then you are going to do your damndest to take out an eye, bust in some teath, crush knuckles, blow out the knee bursa etc. That is nothing that I would ever do unless my life were in danger, and I were unwillingly put in that place. Hell I have a little crisis of conscience every time I am sparring and I see pink through kinks in the gear..."I like this guy, should I really kiss his exposed ulna with my rattan?"
jihi no kokoro...I don't think that you need to really hurt people (possibly permanently) in order to love them...the "benevolent heart".
Doesn't a weapon fight with NO RULES seem to violate some of the premises of Ninpo? I mean, if you are really talking no rules then you are going into that expecting to really hurt someone...if you want to test your true self defense techniques, truly, then you are going to do your damndest to take out an eye, bust in some teath, crush knuckles, blow out the knee bursa etc. That is nothing that I would ever do unless my life were in danger, and I were unwillingly put in that place. Hell I have a little crisis of conscience every time I am sparring and I see pink through kinks in the gear..."I like this guy, should I really kiss his exposed ulna with my rattan?"
jihi no kokoro...I don't think that you need to really hurt people (possibly permanently) in order to love them...the "benevolent heart".
[email protected]
Green Belt
Hello Everyone,
Thanks for everyoneÂ’s opinions and thoughts on this event! Great points have been brought up by everyone.
Mr. Parson, to answer your questions contact Tuhon Kier at [email protected], he can give you the details that you are looking for.
Kyleshort – “jihi no kokoro” or benevolent heart: The kanji utilized in the translation of this phrase means “gentle or tender shelter or receiving assistance form”, it is sometimes translated as place of “mercy or in the shadow of kindness” there is nothing in this type of training that violates this precept. If I offer myself to my opponent willingly and expect the same from him willingly, knowing that the outcome of such a match can be dangerous, then I am offering him (and myself) the opportunity to increase the knowledge in a combative way. A violation would be to not stop when my opponent has submitted or given up, or has decided to back away from such a match. When doing a competitive BJJ, MMA or any combative event match, there does not have to be anger or hate towards my opponent, that is the ego stepping forth to fill a lack of something I may have in my personality. To allow an opponent to bait you into anger is one of the warnings that is often passed down from many great masters but too few of us really grasp the philosophy.
Loki09789 – The idea of “sanctioned violence” within the realms of LEO, Executive protection, Military, Bouncing work is highly limited to what the “legality” of the type of work being performed is. A random Military person cannot go off and just indiscriminately begin shooting people, a law enforcement officer cannot randomly practice his takedown or baton skills on a civilian, bouncing is “quasi” legal at best as look at how many lawsuits arise from being manhandled in a bar, professional Executive protection work seriously frowns upon an individual who injures a perpetrator the key is to maintain a profile and protect the individual from being in a dangerous situation, or to remove them from such a situation if the need arises, “doing it for real” can also include MMA type bouts, BJJ events, full contact karate matches, whatever challenges oneself to push their own envelope. This type of event or any that is similar in fashion to this is not designed to make an individual a “real world” combative expert, but to help challenge one’s physical, mental and emotional limitations.
Kaith Rustaz – great comments, the “flail-tests” are still great fun though, and save my body from some serious beatings!!
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.
www.Bujinkandojo.net
Thanks for everyoneÂ’s opinions and thoughts on this event! Great points have been brought up by everyone.
Mr. Parson, to answer your questions contact Tuhon Kier at [email protected], he can give you the details that you are looking for.
Kyleshort – “jihi no kokoro” or benevolent heart: The kanji utilized in the translation of this phrase means “gentle or tender shelter or receiving assistance form”, it is sometimes translated as place of “mercy or in the shadow of kindness” there is nothing in this type of training that violates this precept. If I offer myself to my opponent willingly and expect the same from him willingly, knowing that the outcome of such a match can be dangerous, then I am offering him (and myself) the opportunity to increase the knowledge in a combative way. A violation would be to not stop when my opponent has submitted or given up, or has decided to back away from such a match. When doing a competitive BJJ, MMA or any combative event match, there does not have to be anger or hate towards my opponent, that is the ego stepping forth to fill a lack of something I may have in my personality. To allow an opponent to bait you into anger is one of the warnings that is often passed down from many great masters but too few of us really grasp the philosophy.
Loki09789 – The idea of “sanctioned violence” within the realms of LEO, Executive protection, Military, Bouncing work is highly limited to what the “legality” of the type of work being performed is. A random Military person cannot go off and just indiscriminately begin shooting people, a law enforcement officer cannot randomly practice his takedown or baton skills on a civilian, bouncing is “quasi” legal at best as look at how many lawsuits arise from being manhandled in a bar, professional Executive protection work seriously frowns upon an individual who injures a perpetrator the key is to maintain a profile and protect the individual from being in a dangerous situation, or to remove them from such a situation if the need arises, “doing it for real” can also include MMA type bouts, BJJ events, full contact karate matches, whatever challenges oneself to push their own envelope. This type of event or any that is similar in fashion to this is not designed to make an individual a “real world” combative expert, but to help challenge one’s physical, mental and emotional limitations.
Kaith Rustaz – great comments, the “flail-tests” are still great fun though, and save my body from some serious beatings!!
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.
www.Bujinkandojo.net
Steve,[email protected] said:
You are correct about the 'random actions' for military/LEO and others being frowned upon...as it is frowned up for any member of a culture to 'randomly act' in a violent way.
My point was that participation in one of these venues (and being a bouncer - at least in NYS - requires, by law, a guard card course and licensing, along with Exec Protection so it is more than "quasi-legal" regardless of how poorly run/done or litigated workers/businesses may be) put the physical skill of martial arts training into a real world context where things like judgement, decision making, situational/environmental awareness, verbal/negotiation skills (to talk down the other guy or when dealing with LEO after the fact), FIRST AID (other end of the 'self defense skill' spectrum IMO - if you know how to break it, knowing how to heal it to a degree makes sense) and other realistic skills are combined and can be directly tranferred/translated to civilian use with a minor adjustment.
Your statement about Exec protection goals and tactics is an easy translation to civilian life because the general goal if you are protecting your child/family/friend Ex.PR. training (or at least an understanding of the tactics) can help you make better real world choices that don't land you in jail.
You make the point that these types of events aren't intended to train 'real world experts' but to test the individual. I would say that you can get that 'test the individual' experience from the type of activities/jobs I listed with a more practical application to your realistic use of martial arts AND stay within the law.
I would go further to say that sometimes these types of events encourage and reinforce physical applications that will hurt the martial artists 'real world application' because of the lack of contextual judgement because of the 'to the submission/knock out' set up. Is there a fitness/doctor's release requirement? What if someone who enters has an existing medical condition (heart problem or something) and drops during the event? Insurance comes up again.
You can sign all the waivers you want, and so can the guy who breaks your head/hand and kills you or leaves you a veggie pattie that has to have his wife change his diapers - it is still illegal if you are using/collaborating to use deadly force against another person (with consentual participation or not) AND those voluntary release forms will not mean dooky when the surviving relatives or the maimed individual sues you/Sayoc because they can't earn a living anymore. The reputation damage will be done even if the case isn't.
This is VERY different from MMA events that can be ensured or any other 'sanctioned' event/tournament. Is it ensured, if not is it because the coordinator of the event didn't bother or was it because he/they were turned down?
How did the event go?
The catatonic drooling shorted out the computer...not to mention he couldn't remember which key was "a".....Tgace said:The cane stuck in his braincase probably dosent allow him to get close enough to the computer to post....
.I know I was pretty critical of the event from a personal stand point, but I am curious about the outcome and sincerely hope there wasn't any serious damage done...by cars or other 'no rules' tools that were snuck into this stick fight.
[email protected]
Green Belt
Hello Everyone,
This weekends event went off well and no serious injuries have been reported! You will be able to see some of the fights on various segments of the upcoming Sayoc Kali DVD's. Here is a quote from one of the Senior Sayoc Kali Instructors.
"Sayoc Kali focuses on "All Blade , All the Time!". A constantly evolving real
world approach on the blade.
Sayoc Kali is part of the larger organization called the Sayoc Fighting
System, which encompasses many other aspects of the FMA.
The 2004 Sayoc Stick Fights were conducted during a chilly autumn afternoon. As magenta leaves drifted lazily upon a mountain stream, all that was once tranquil were balanced by the maharlika's tune of a rattan stick whistling through the air, and its impact upon living skin and bone. The raw siena ofmoist soil invaded by crimson. Calloused hands and masks of exertion replace civilized armor. Myths are torn asunder and posturing trolls remain hidden in their warm electric havens.
The old saying that fiction can never equal REALITY is proven to be true.
Many who shall witness this footage will call it primal, perhaps even
brutal... we call it training.
Sayoc Kali
"Not the Past but the Future""
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.
This weekends event went off well and no serious injuries have been reported! You will be able to see some of the fights on various segments of the upcoming Sayoc Kali DVD's. Here is a quote from one of the Senior Sayoc Kali Instructors.
"Sayoc Kali focuses on "All Blade , All the Time!". A constantly evolving real
world approach on the blade.
Sayoc Kali is part of the larger organization called the Sayoc Fighting
System, which encompasses many other aspects of the FMA.
The 2004 Sayoc Stick Fights were conducted during a chilly autumn afternoon. As magenta leaves drifted lazily upon a mountain stream, all that was once tranquil were balanced by the maharlika's tune of a rattan stick whistling through the air, and its impact upon living skin and bone. The raw siena ofmoist soil invaded by crimson. Calloused hands and masks of exertion replace civilized armor. Myths are torn asunder and posturing trolls remain hidden in their warm electric havens.
The old saying that fiction can never equal REALITY is proven to be true.
Many who shall witness this footage will call it primal, perhaps even
brutal... we call it training.
Sayoc Kali
"Not the Past but the Future""
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.
Perhaps for some... I think most of us remaining in our warm electric havens are simply not seeking out unneccesary injury.
Glad ot know it went well and there were no serious injuries. Sounds like it was a lovely day.
How many people fought?
Sun_Helmet
Orange Belt
The Sayoc Stick Fights had a better showing of individuals, than many expected. We thank all those here who posted their concerns, but we didn't do this because it was a whim. It is not the first time we have done this training. So we had all the concerns listed here covered. We also had other precautions that were not listed here covered.
The purpose was not to hold this as a sporting event, but a documentation of a space and time for others to gain VALUABLE insight into their personal training whether they participated or not. If you are not doing it and discourage others from doing it, then how do you get the real world information? From word of mouth?
Here's a chance to SHOW a student of yours that:
1. A disarm can work. If you have trained it appropriately.
2. The fights don't end when a stick is lost
3. Other arts can do well in this type of situation. Sound TACTICS always work better than Theories.
4. Hand hits might NOT work and sometimes they do.
5. Projectiles can be used in a real time situation to your advantage
6. The environment can assist or handicap you, depending on your mindset.
7. Some Hubad drills can come in handy.
8. Size can or cannot matter in a stick fight. But skill ALWAYS matters.
9. Conditioning for this type of scenario is more intense than one would think.
10. It's difficult to get a knockout but it can happen.
11. A stick can equalize a grappler AND vice versa, a grappler can use a stick to THEIR advantage.
12. A submission can happen with a pressure point when a stick is involved.
13. A standup submission can happen with a stick.
14. Fancy twirling when done by someone who knows WHY they are doing it can definitely hurt.
15. Stick grip changes can be done in real time and effectively.
16. Some who do not train in the blade have a huge misconception between what a blade can do and a stick. The gap is HUGE.
17. No headgear alters the way you fight. Many people think that the face is easy to strike until they realise that if you can get to the face, so can your opponent.
Just an inkling of material that was addressed this weekend.
So now you will have an opportunity to point out things to those who question your art, whether you are Sayoc or not. Perhaps it will support your training or maybe direct you in a path that will improve your training.
Regardless, the footage will soon be here and it will not be the end all but a point of reference for many of you.
We knew we would take some flak but that's human nature. We also know that many people who may dismiss this type of training will also be VIEWING the clips when they come up online or available via dvd.
Btw, a car is armor unless a person can swing one from the outside of their vehicle... and no one ever called a car a 'stick'.
There was a question about military, LEO and other types of individuals. Well, we train all these types of individuals so we have to be able to tell them with a clear conscience that what we teach DOES work and they can then access whether it is something they will include in their arsenal. It also SHOWS what they can watch out for in terms of surviving a specific technique or tactic. It was for OUR benefit that we did this for OURSELVES. That is how we learn how to evolve SAYOC KALI. No one who entered the event was there primarily for personal glory, but a greater purpose... documentation.
The real winners were the FMA community.
We don't care if you train Sayoc or not, the footage will be available with instruction for your own reflection. We are not judging you. We know all of you are probably tough hombres- you don't need to tell us. We TEACH about de-escalation and other methods of survival. We KNOW about the legal ramifications of force. That's a whole different subject. We wanted to document real world reactions and test moves in an ugly uncooperative environment.
The very existence of this footage extends our respects to those who came before, and those who wish to represent the FMA in the future.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
'Not the PAST but the FUTURE'
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The purpose was not to hold this as a sporting event, but a documentation of a space and time for others to gain VALUABLE insight into their personal training whether they participated or not. If you are not doing it and discourage others from doing it, then how do you get the real world information? From word of mouth?
Here's a chance to SHOW a student of yours that:
1. A disarm can work. If you have trained it appropriately.
2. The fights don't end when a stick is lost
3. Other arts can do well in this type of situation. Sound TACTICS always work better than Theories.
4. Hand hits might NOT work and sometimes they do.
5. Projectiles can be used in a real time situation to your advantage
6. The environment can assist or handicap you, depending on your mindset.
7. Some Hubad drills can come in handy.
8. Size can or cannot matter in a stick fight. But skill ALWAYS matters.
9. Conditioning for this type of scenario is more intense than one would think.
10. It's difficult to get a knockout but it can happen.
11. A stick can equalize a grappler AND vice versa, a grappler can use a stick to THEIR advantage.
12. A submission can happen with a pressure point when a stick is involved.
13. A standup submission can happen with a stick.
14. Fancy twirling when done by someone who knows WHY they are doing it can definitely hurt.
15. Stick grip changes can be done in real time and effectively.
16. Some who do not train in the blade have a huge misconception between what a blade can do and a stick. The gap is HUGE.
17. No headgear alters the way you fight. Many people think that the face is easy to strike until they realise that if you can get to the face, so can your opponent.
Just an inkling of material that was addressed this weekend.
So now you will have an opportunity to point out things to those who question your art, whether you are Sayoc or not. Perhaps it will support your training or maybe direct you in a path that will improve your training.
Regardless, the footage will soon be here and it will not be the end all but a point of reference for many of you.
We knew we would take some flak but that's human nature. We also know that many people who may dismiss this type of training will also be VIEWING the clips when they come up online or available via dvd.
Btw, a car is armor unless a person can swing one from the outside of their vehicle... and no one ever called a car a 'stick'.
There was a question about military, LEO and other types of individuals. Well, we train all these types of individuals so we have to be able to tell them with a clear conscience that what we teach DOES work and they can then access whether it is something they will include in their arsenal. It also SHOWS what they can watch out for in terms of surviving a specific technique or tactic. It was for OUR benefit that we did this for OURSELVES. That is how we learn how to evolve SAYOC KALI. No one who entered the event was there primarily for personal glory, but a greater purpose... documentation.
The real winners were the FMA community.
We don't care if you train Sayoc or not, the footage will be available with instruction for your own reflection. We are not judging you. We know all of you are probably tough hombres- you don't need to tell us. We TEACH about de-escalation and other methods of survival. We KNOW about the legal ramifications of force. That's a whole different subject. We wanted to document real world reactions and test moves in an ugly uncooperative environment.
The very existence of this footage extends our respects to those who came before, and those who wish to represent the FMA in the future.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
'Not the PAST but the FUTURE'
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Sun_Helmet said:
How Many?
