Full Contact No Armor Event!

[arnisandyz]

Coming in late, and from an outsiders point of view, I think the original post started out like a very open invitation to those outside of Sayoc Kali. However no attempt is made to say or it is vary vague as to what type of event this will be (as Tulisan has stated), is it a coming together of the brotherhood to further FMA, or is it an invitation to bring “fresh meat” as someone else stated, is it an all out fight for your life? There are many questions asked that haven’t been answered other than “buy the DVD and see for yourself.”


“all that was once tranquil were balanced by the maharlika's tune of a rattan stick whistling through the air, and its impact upon living skin and bone. The raw siena ofmoist soil invaded by crimson. Many who shall witness this footage will call it primal, perhaps even brutal... we call it training.”

The quoted passage above (although very good creative writing), further enhances the dramatization and I’m sorry, almost seems WWF in its promotion of the event. It seems to promote the idea of violence like a surreal movie trailer (you have to admit, it does sound cool) rather than the idea of advancing training. The instances of sincere intentions are clouded by this overall theme. Perhaps a more editorial approach or documentation of the event would be better received?

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Here is my problem with it:

1. The arts evolved from necessity. In the current day (at least in first world nations like US/Canada and the like) the 'way it use to be done' is not acceptable because - for good or bad - there seems to be more support networks to create civil peace than were there before. Events like this are flat out ILLEGAL because of the 'full contact' and the 'no rules' issues around an event that is using lethal force (stick in this case). If people voluntarily submit or not, it is illegal. It is just as illegal to voluntarily buy drugs...so the voluntary involvement logic doesn't work for me. IF you are intending to hit someone with a blunt trauma weapon 'full contact' in order to get them to 'knock out or submit' then you are in simple terms using lethal force/deadly force to exert your will on someone - that is not training that is a life and death fight!

Here's where the MYTH busting comes in and only through actual real world experience do we come up with the TRUE data.
It takes several HARD, CLEAN shots to the head before one gets KOd by a rattan stick. Especially if the other guy doesn't want to get hit. That's a FACT. We knew this coming in because we've done this training before. The first shot can end the fight due to a cut or just unwillingness (tolerance) to take the pain, but there were no one shot KOs from a stick shot. Some fights went several shots before submission, no KOs. A stick has as much power as a kick or punch - the difference is that the stick doesn't break like a hand would from impact, but it does NOT hit the head/jaw at the angles a limb shot can induce a KO with. Anyone telling you otherwise is fooling you.

Here's why:
What pushes the myth along is that people wearing headgear stay within the contact zone too long and get TOO MANY impact shots to their head than they would if it was real. So they stay in and get clocked. In a real fight between trained combatants, they will not engage the fight this way. All things change when you KNOW your own head can get hit. No one acts like a stick robot anymore. Once they get hit hard they submit or close. They do not trade shots at full power, because the body doesn't work that way. You need to pad up to get that type of reaction from BOTH parties.

Guess what happens? People stay at long range or they stay in grappling range.

No one stays in the corto range. Corto is the mutual aggressive space and that is where your reflexive responses no longer can guarantee you will see a shot coming in time to counter it.

However, after several shots to the hands or close calls to the head, the long range fighters realize there's no advantage in staying out there. They won't get a KO, because it isn't a blade. They just get nicked here and there. Only when you get a fighter who can't stand the hand hits anymore do you ever get a submission at long range (BOTH fighters staying outside). So they close to grappling range.

You have to catch them disengaging as they back off to guess what? The corto range. even then, trained fighters trap the offending stick arm or weapon, they cover, they block with their own stick.

Fighters will know that even their striking arcs, etc. have to be smaller. Why? Because the opponent will get their shot in if you over commit, and probably harder because they timed your wide or overly committed attacks.

That's REALITY.

At extreme grappling range, you won't get a KO because of the power arc of the stick.

That is REALITY.

So this DVD will SHOW you how stick GRAPPLING LOCkS and Submission holds can fit into your arsenal and make you an efficient fighter. It will SHOW you that even if you don't have a weapon there are ways to close.

As far as we are concerned we are training out of necessity. We have to teach military personnel how to deal with people running at them with blunt and edged weapons. They have been taught incorrectly in some instances on how to deal with such threats.

3. Tradition is the weakest of all rationales IMO for the use of lethal force.

One has to first consider whether or not your premise that this is lethal force is false or not.

4. Events like this do not demonstrate a respect for the current culture, recognition for the context or the a responsible use of martial arts IMO.

Since you concluded with an IMO, that's okay with me.Although I disagree. In fact, since we posted this event we've had numerous replies from other systems that state they do this too.

I would be interested in knowing what kind of credo or code of ethics are implied or expected of the members of this training group/system and how it can be justified/aligned to that philosophical stance. THEN, I would like to see how this can be defended as legal at all.

Well in your first post you admitted in stating that this event interested you and you might pass the info around. Then you also stated that you agree to such 'training' or 'gutchecks' whatever that means. Now it seems the whole idea is foreign to you and you are above it all because you find it unethical.

So you're telling us that when you train with a stick, your students ALWAYS wear head gear even when they do drills aimed at the head? They ALWAYS wear street hockey gloves and mouthpieces or goggles? ACCIDENTS do happen and I bet that if your training has any inkling of reality, people get hit with a stick now and then on the HEAD. It is part of training.

Considering that Tgace, as an LEO, and the NYS Trooper that works in the building are looking at the event details and saying that this sounds like lethal force (and is unjustified use therefore illegal/undefendable in court), I would question how much concern over self defense legallity there is here.

Are you trying to establish that no one knew this was for training purposes and that they were getting ambushed in the middle of the woods that they CHOSE to drive two hours to get to? That after they were given numerous warnings and cautions, waivers and other opportunities to realize this is for training and in training one can get hurt that they were now in self defense mode?

Still no answer on insurance and other questions.

The answers are there but you don't wish to understand them.

Look there's no malice directed at you Paul, but I think there's certain concepts that have to be SHOWN to work before one states that they are indeed true. IMO there's certain misconceptions of what a stick can or cannot do and it's right time that we address it. If we teach our students to stay in corto range in a stick fight like many do in their stick drills, then that's more unethical than telling them the truth.

Again, no one said YOu or ANYONE else had to do this for themselves... it was to document and study the TRUE reactions of a stick fight. How other methods or ranges of fighting can fit right into the fight. You can choose to learn from it or not.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST but the FUTURE"
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[Sun_Helmet]

The quoted passage above (although very good creative writing), further enhances the dramatization and I1m sorry, almost seems WWF in its promotion of the event. It seems to promote the idea of violence like a surreal movie trailer (you have to admit, it does sound cool) rather than the idea of advancing training. The instances of sincere intentions are clouded by this overall theme. Perhaps a more editorial approach or documentation of the event would be better received?

Well, the words "WE CALL IT TRAINING" is right there at the end of it. You can apply the same perceptions any outsider will react to when they see two people even doing a simple eight count sinawali drill. Barbarians!

The universal usage of the word, "WE" was also qualified by stating that it meant to encompass how people react to ALL of us FMAs.

The documentation will be in the DVD. if you check the Sayoc Public forum, this post was under one that was more straight forward. I can't help it if I sound cool...but the ground WAS siena, the blood WAS crimson, the place WAS chilly, it WAS autumn, Soil WAS moist, sticks DID whistle in the air, etc... as far as brutal or primal.. well you can read for yourself how others reacted to the footage sight unseen.... it isn't exaggeration.

--Rafael--
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[arnisandyz]

Hi Rafael,

I have no problem with the choice of words (as I mentioned, excellent writing), only its intent. To me, the words are used to “glamorize and setup" a backdrop for violence, not training.

And the words “we call it training” comes off as bravado posturing rather than a descriptor when used in context with the rest of the paragraph.

I’m not saying this is your actual intent, only that others may view it this way (as you can see by some of the responses here). I will be sure to check out this DVD however, as I am sure it it loaded with valuable information and will have a very high production quality as other Sayoc DVDs.

Thanks

Andy

 

[Sun_Helmet]

I¹m not saying this is your actual intent, only that others may view it this way (as you can see by some of the responses here). I will be sure to check out this DVD however, as I am sure it it loaded with valuable information and will have a very high production quality as other Sayoc DVDs.
Thanks

Andy

Point taken Andy. The written word does present all sort of projections from the readers themselves. From what I've seen so far on the DVD, it equals the other Sayoc DVDs just due to the setting involved.

I think the instructional portion will be an eye opener as well. Tuhon Tom Kier demoed some of it in our last Sama Sama and even some high ranked well known FMAs from other systems came away with a VERY positive reaction to it. In fact, Tuhon Tom's fight had a disarm, a gunting to the leg, and ended with a stand up stick lock submission against one of our other very tough instructors (who also had a grappling bg). Very quick and efficient once he had it locked in.

--Rafael--
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[arnisandyz]

Thanks Rafael,

will this fight footage be part of the new SamaSama DVD or a stand alone? What will be the title so I can look out for it?

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Andy,
The DVD will be called Stick Grappling. It will have training tips, Instructional, and a sampling of the fights.
-----
The Sama Sama 2004 DVD will be a two disc set and will have special guests like Guros Krishna Godhania, Atienzas, Harley Elmore (doing some Maphilindo) and Ray Floro.

I'm not sure if the action flex melees that we did for fun will be included but it has around seventy people in various 'tribes' working group dynamics. This was done for fun and comraderie.

We also had long range 'blade simulator' matches that also had a good amount of folks participating. Again. not sure if that is all in the Sama Sama dvd.

There were long range segments, tomahawk, projectiles, phase two knife tapping, silat, whip, stick templates, karambit template and less interviews... just a ton of material is covered.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[Cruentus]

I have two points real quick (I am at Rich Parson's after training and I need to get home):

#1. Rapheal said, "ALL Training IS fantasy.
Why? Because it is NEVER Real.

There's no reality based training that in my eyes equal REALITY."

Now, please don't misconstrue me here. I am not entering an arguement with anyone or taking sides with anything...I am pleasently observing.

On that note, Raphael's quote here is worth reiterating, because it is probably the most true thing that has been said in this entire thread. Too often people fail to realize that "training" or even "competition" in a controlled environment is NOT "reality." That is why we call it training. That being said, it is important that we understand the differences between reality and whatever training we are doing so that we can make the adjustments when it is crucial to our survival (reality). That being said as well, we need to train hard and as realistically as we can, but we also need to survive those training sessions so that we can train another day. It is not prudent self-defense to tear your body to pieces and live a cripple in your old age or die an early death, just as it is not prudent for skill developement to injure yourself and put yourself out of the game for months.

Just some things we should all think about.

#2. I just wanted to say that YOU WILL SHATTER BONE if you are using a heavy log of a stick (the kind that I use, as well as many others) and executing a full power strike using your whole bodies force and making contact with bone, with all that force focused where only a few milimeters of space on the stick touches a few milimeters of surface area (on bone). Period. The above is what Modern Arnis or Balintawak could consider a PROPER STRIKE. If you strike your opponent properly, you will end the match with one solid blow as described. This could mean a shattered wrist, a shattered temple, a shattered jaw, or what have you for whoever is on the recieving end of that cane. If you do not "KO" your opponent with a "proper strike," then you are not using heavy enough sticks, or you are executing a level of control (as I and my collegues do when we train). If you are trying to KO your partner and you fail to do so, then I think you need to figure out what is technically inferior in your strike (was it poorly focused, were your body mechanics off, were you hitting with the belly rather then the end, etc., etc., etc.)

Also something to think about.

Again, not argueing, just adding my thoughts. Thank you for listening...

PJMOD

p.s. my grammer sucks here, so please excuse me... :ultracool

 

[Bester]

So, let me see if I understand this whole thread.

Some guys want to get together in the woods, no insurance, no safeguards and flail away at each other and call it "Real".

Ok, to each their own.

Me, I am not certain I understand the "desire" to risk maiming, concussions, broken bones, etc. needlessly. I've worked knife defenses, but never with live steel. I must certainly be missing something in my training.

Personally, since I believe several of these groups also train heavily in the blade I would like to see them all go "For Real" with live steel.

When is that gathering scheduled for?

 

[KyleShort]

Hi Paul,

For the first time I took a moment to read through your Gild page. Very impressive and I really like your approach to rank.

That's all I had to say =)

Kyle Short

 

[Sun_Helmet]

So, let me see if I understand this whole thread.

Okay.

Some guys want to get together in the woods, no insurance, no safeguards and flail away at each other and call it "Real".

Well you missed the whole theme of it being part of training. You also make a few assumptions.

Ok, to each their own.

Obviously it is NOT - see the rest of your post below.

Me, I am not certain I understand the "desire" to risk maiming, concussions, broken bones, etc. needlessly. I've worked knife defenses, but never with live steel. I must certainly be missing something in my training.

No need to get defensive about your training. No one is judging your training. People get broken bones ice skating and die sky diving or skiing- I find that needless.

Personally, since I believe several of these groups also train heavily in the blade I would like to see them all go "For Real" with live steel.

When is that gathering scheduled for?

When we first announced this event someone else on another forum remarked, "Why not just fight with bolos?"

That validated our Sayoc Kali training even more, because we understand the VAST difference between a stick and blade.
Remember this was training that focused on a stick as an impact weapon. A blade is not an impact weapon.

--Rafael--

 

[Sun_Helmet]

#2. I just wanted to say that YOU WILL SHATTER BONE if you are using a heavy log of a stick (the kind that I use, as well as many others) and executing a full power strike using your whole bodies force and making contact with bone, with all that force focused where only a few milimeters of space on the stick touches a few milimeters of surface area (on bone). Period. The above is what Modern Arnis or Balintawak could consider a PROPER STRIKE. If you strike your opponent properly, you will end the match with one solid blow as described. This could mean a shattered wrist, a shattered temple, a shattered jaw, or what have you for whoever is on the recieving end of that cane. If you do not "KO" your opponent with a "proper strike," then you are not using heavy enough sticks, or you are executing a level of control (as I and my collegues do when we train). If you are trying to KO your partner and you fail to do so, then I think you need to figure out what is technically inferior in your strike (was it poorly focused, were your body mechanics off, were you hitting with the belly rather then the end, etc., etc., etc.)

Not arguing here, since I think you raised very good points. It even supports the range I was talking about- small surface - small impact surface ... mostly happening in corto range where your full power strike can do the MOST damage in terms of body mechanics. At long range (extended sticks tip to tip), you still have to enter corto (extended stick tip touches opponent's limb) to make HARD contact. A big difference with the long blade where you can literally puncture away at your opponent from afar.

The lack of armor makes people consider this right away.

How will I make the hard contact without my own self getting clocked on the way in or on the way out (double kill)? When we used action flex we see people rush in with wild abandon - no matter what stick system. It is the ego taking hold, there's no self awareness check. When we use light gear and padded hard sticks simulating blades and we only allow kill shots to matter, we noticed they stayed at long range longer, but would not close because the padded sticks were supposedly long blades. Then we let them play with armor and sticks and there's too many double kills for the beginners.

What this specific training event focused on was how to get past that range and get a submission, Many are all still thinking like typical stick swingers. It isn't a bad thing if you can keep range and we had some of our instructors do this successfully in their fights. Yet, the reason they stayed in that range was because they knew how to get out of the grappling stick range.

If it comes to someone with a heavy stick here is the equalizer: You have ONE shot with that heavy stick. Your opponent and you both know it. You HAVE to maintain PROPER RANGE to make the next shot count. The other guy KNOWs how to cover and CLOSE ... FAST. They will come in swinging as well or at least make you respond to their attack... perhaps make you block before you counter. Enough time for them to enter your half beat timing and close. In Sayoc Kali it is called, "Keeping your opponent honest".

Which also figures into the equation that if you use a heavy stick you also allow the opponent to pick up a lighter stick to make faster and more repetitive contact on your unarmored person. Btw, we had several guys who studied modern arnis in the fights. I've worked out with BOTH Balintawak and Modern Arnis individuals. We have MA instructors in Sayoc Kali. Tuhon Chris Sayoc's family hosted the great Remy Presas when he first arrived in the NY area in the early days. We've seen what's out there.

Back to corto:
What I stated about corto range is true- you won't be able to break anything if the other guy is uncooperative and they have access to your unarmored person as well. You have to be able to catch them coming into that range to make the desired impact ONE time.

Yes, a heavy stick can shatter bone but you lose some of that advantage when you use the heavy stick, especially a long stick. One is that the other person closes in on you fast... covered. Now you have a heavy long stick that is harder to use in a grappling situation.

We had some fights end at long range but that was from repetitive hand strikes... not ONE. If you are training properly, it is difficult to get hit dead on at the wrist and hand... you are usually keeping your limbs mobile.

I know that many here may think all this is useless info and that they knew this already. Well, that's great for you. However, when there's now evidence of these concepts it is much easier to make your case. It isn't for everyone but we knew that comin in. There's room for all.

Now, when you state that you can KO an opponent in one strike.. how do you KNOW? Someone in your school must have done so correct? They must have been in the middle of an actual sparring match to make this an uncooperative opponent right? What makes that training different? Isn't that according to others here a lethal weapon being used improperly, even if it is part of TRAINING?

Again. no malice intended - thanks for keeping this a proper discussion.
Here's a montage clip from the INSTRUCTIONAL section of the DVD:
http://sayoc.com/vidclips/Internet1.mov
--Rafael--
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[pakua]

hope everybody coming out the other end can still recite the alphabet.

Anyone who enters this is too thick to recite the alphabet before IMO.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Anyone who enters this is too thick to recite the alphabet before IMO.

Brutal! Worse one yet... INCREDIBLE! A little late but always good to dust these zingers off.

I see an odd alphabet fixation on this thread.
In contrast, I value this opinion much better:

"On a scale of 1 to 10, I rate Sayoc Kali a 10.
I personally, highly recommend Tuhon Chris Sayoc to anyone interested in learning the strategies and tactics of edged weapons awareness and self-defense."

Dan Inosanto
Founder / Head Instructor
Inosanto Academy of Martial Arts

--Rafael--

 

[loki09789]

1.Here's where the MYTH busting comes in and only through actual real world experience do we come up with the TRUE data.
It takes several HARD, CLEAN shots to the head before one gets KOd by a rattan stick.

Anyone telling you otherwise is fooling you.


That's REALITY.


2. So this DVD will SHOW you how stick GRAPPLING LOCkS and Submission holds can fit into your arsenal and make you an efficient fighter. It will SHOW you that even if you don't have a weapon there are ways to close.

3. As far as we are concerned we are training out of necessity. We have to teach military personnel how to deal with people running at them with blunt and edged weapons. They have been taught incorrectly in some instances on how to deal with such threats.

4. One has to first consider whether or not your premise that this is lethal force is false or not.



5. Since you concluded with an IMO, that's okay with me.Although I disagree. In fact, since we posted this event we've had numerous replies from other systems that state they do this too.



6. Well in your first post you admitted in stating that this event interested you and you might pass the info around. Then you also stated that you agree to such 'training' or 'gutchecks' whatever that means. Now it seems the whole idea is foreign to you and you are above it all because you find it unethical.

7. So you're telling us that when you train with a stick, your students ALWAYS wear head gear even when they do drills aimed at the head? They ALWAYS wear street hockey gloves and mouthpieces or goggles? ACCIDENTS do happen and I bet that if your training has any inkling of reality, people get hit with a stick now and then on the HEAD. It is part of training.

8. Are you trying to establish that no one knew this was for training purposes and that they were getting ambushed in the middle of the woods that they CHOSE to drive two hours to get to? That after they were given numerous warnings and cautions, waivers and other opportunities to realize this is for training and in training one can get hurt that they were now in self defense mode?

9. The answers are there but you don't wish to understand them.

10.Again, no one said YOu or ANYONE else had to do this for themselves... it was to document and study the TRUE reactions of a stick fight. How other methods or ranges of fighting can fit right into the fight. You can choose to learn from it or not.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST but the FUTURE"
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I know...I said that I was done, but my impulse control is showing again (that's a joke btw I wouldn't expose myself to any of you )Here we go:

1. IN REALITY I don't think I will be doing head shots with a rattan stick - and neither will the majority of people who are not training for system/self perpetuation. For me, and most self defense oriented martial artists with FMA background, the rattan stick is a METAPHOR for other weapons and the goal is to train for adaptability and translation NOT to master a rattan stick. So, your idea that you are training for reality has holes in it for me.

2. Marketing, hmmm.....

3. You don't 'have to', you choose to, just like you choose to organize/participate in these 'fight club' events. There is a big difference in responsibility, remember that when you are being arrested for negligent homocide because someone wasn't willing to submit after one of your powerful head shots and took those other 2/3....

oh yeah, it only takes ONE head shot to cause concussive damage that will have symptoms that take hours/days/weeks sometimes before the person goes into a coma, knows something serious could be wrong.

4. Well, two current LEO's and my MP/LEO/Self Defense oriented training all scream that it is lethal force AND that it is an unjustified/defensible use.

5. I don't care how many people responded "If all your friends were jumping over Niagara Falls...." as my mother would say.

6. Yes the event interested me, but since no one was willing to openly discuss insurance/locations/schedules/safety guidelines/emts..... I exercised judgment.

7. No they don't ALWAYS wear that level of protective gear...but then again, I know the difference between tactical and technical training goals/needs and environmental/material needs. I know how to set up responsible training environments that are ALIGNED to my goals/intent as an instructor of self defense and keep me WITHIN the Social/cultural/contextual/legal realm of acceptability...but still teach students HOW and WHEN to bang hard, that is 'leading by example.' If I want my students to be 'versed in the laws of defending yourself' to paraphrase the Sayoc.com disclaimer, then I need to be modeling that behavior myself in EVERY PART OF MY PROGRAM. It is bad enough that as flawed humans, we set ourselves up with 'do as I say, not as I do' moments - they can be reduced/eliminated at the curriculum/system level with some simple consideration and thought.

8. Again, voluntary does not eliminate that it is lethal force, especially when you are talking about it taking multiple power shots to the head with rattan in order to knock out a person.....WOW if that isn't demonstration of intent I don't know what is.

9. The answers are not there because you won't give them. Constant dodging leaves me with the impression that either you don't know or it is not all covered/on the up and up OR you are 'legend building.' I think Janulis' post references some possible interpretations to consider.

10. Ah, the 'stick fight' idea again.... I thought it was a 'no rules' event and I also thought it was a way to test the 'reality' of what you can make work... I don't see the reality of 'dueling skills training' in todays world. I DO see how those skills can be reorganized/refocused in a self defense curriculum to meet the real world needs of today's civilian existence...even LEO/MILITARY don't/can NOT operate the way 'it use to be done' in all cases and they DON"T DUEL! - Peacekeeping missions and such require more judgement than lethal force skills for instance.

 

[GAB]

Yes Loki, The way it was done 35 years ago and within Dept. policy, will probably land you off the job for awhile, or permanently, or in jail..

The 'old hickory' was not supposed to be placed on the head when I was there and yet it sometimes can/could not be avoided, but you had better have had a good reason even in the bad/good old days...

The hands usually were a good target and other locations are much preferred.

After a seminar this weekend we were talking after class, my son was the only one who was there who has/had any knowledge about my background...

After that and being together I said remember the time I told you this and this he laughed and said right on...

Unfortunantly or??? I have had to, in my past hurt quite a few in my position and when the stick was taken out it was to be used, no threat, no yelling, just blunt force trauma and bones were broke..Not all the time but quite a few
times, the collar bone was a place when you really wanted to takeum out.

The wrist, elbow and knee were other locations of preference. Similar to empty hand, the strike across the side of the face incompassing the ear is very effective.

I have an understanding of the use of sticks, but then I was paid to do it and was putting my life in such a position. I think it is fair to say I could do it, I was trusted by my employer and others to use the force necessary.

This particular event is/boards on criminal behavior. IMO.

But, the school has a pretty good following at least by the way they advertise, etc.. Rogue, comes into my mind, but we will have to follow it up and watch how it plays. (dvd)

I am sorry if you are going to have to dip into your pockets, because of me, but I was, and am on a plain to see the real picture...IMO

Regards, Gary

 

[Guro Harold]

This thread is bearing light on several training, legal and LEO perspectives.
Good info.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

1. IN REALITY I don't think I will be doing head shots with a rattan stick - and neither will the majority of people who are not training for system/self perpetuation. For me, and most self defense oriented martial artists with FMA background, the rattan stick is a METAPHOR for other weapons and the goal is to train for adaptability and translation NOT to master a rattan stick. So, your idea that you are training for reality has holes in it for me.

Perhaps you are not being asked certain questions by operators who have to go into the field and do their job effectively. A stick isn't a metaphor in our training except as a stick or blunt weapon. It can not replace a metaphor for a blade. Like a machete. In time the tactics become watered down and the effectiveness follows. Pretty soon you have people saying, "Why not use blades instead". Pretty soon they think blades and sticks are similar. Once you start saying that a stick is a METAPHOR for a large blade then you start thinking that head shots are no good, when in contrast a Blade head shot is VERY effective. We do other training that focuses on that aspect.

2. Marketing, hmmm.....

That coyness won't work here. Someone asked a specific question. In any case marketing is part of your agenda as well. We can go over details in your comments and links to your site if you'd like.

3. You don't 'have to', you choose to, just like you choose to organize/participate in these 'fight club' events. There is a big difference in responsibility, remember that when you are being arrested for negligent homocide because someone wasn't willing to submit after one of your powerful head shots and took those other 2/3....

You call it fight club since that is your defensive marketing kicking in. You weren't involved but you showed interest. Now you abhor the behavior.

oh yeah, it only takes ONE head shot to cause concussive damage that will have symptoms that take hours/days/weeks sometimes before the person goes into a coma, knows something serious could be wrong.

See above. That can happen while you are doing ANY physical contact activity. We get it. It is NOT for you. Well it was but not now.

4. Well, two current LEO's and my MP/LEO/Self Defense oriented training all scream that it is lethal force AND that it is an unjustified/defensible use.

I can find you my own LEOs and lawyers who disagree. Especially when the actual use of sticks and full contact was NEVER your concern in the beginning of this thread. Your first post was concerned with insurance and other matters that had no focus on the actual ACT of using a stick to make contact. You already read that it was no armor,therfore risk of serious injury could happen at any exposed body part, yet you were interested.

5. I don't care how many people responded "If all your friends were jumping over Niagara Falls...." as my mother would say.

You don't care therefore, you kept asking HOW MANY? Btw, they stated they did this training too AFTER the fact. We were not doing this because others did.

6. Yes the event interested me, but since no one was willing to openly discuss insurance/locations/schedules/safety guidelines/emts..... I exercised judgment.

Actually Steve L. posted a DIRECT email link for questions to Tuhon Tom Kier who was the person holding the event. Let's be honest and tell everyone if you followed up that info. Why not get the info STRAIGHT from the person holding the event? You never posted on the sayoc site either. why would we post the location on a public forum when we wanted no strange gawkers or other elements.

For someone who states they do tactical instruction, it isn;t very sound security precautions. We wanted the fighters to not have a cheering section of non participants thinking this was something else. We didn't want people showing up betting on fighters. I ignored that part of the question because it is obvious to anyone who purports teaching tactical methods.

7. No they don't ALWAYS wear that level of protective gear...

Tell that to the jury when they take the portions of your statements here and turn it around on you.

but then again, I know the difference between tactical and technical training goals/needs and environmental/material needs. I know how to set up responsible training environments that are ALIGNED to my goals/intent as an instructor of self defense and keep me WITHIN the Social/cultural/contextual/legal realm of acceptability...but still teach students HOW and WHEN to bang hard, that is 'leading by example.'

Which is a nice MARKETING statement.
Sayoc Kali is one of the leading systems in Tactical Edged Weaponry Instruction in the country. Many of our instructors are either in the security, military and LEO fields.
They come to us for training.
We don't need to defensively market our system on the backs of others.

You do know that's what you are doing right?

If I want my students to be 'versed in the laws of defending yourself' to paraphrase the Sayoc.com disclaimer, then I need to be modeling that behavior myself in EVERY PART OF MY PROGRAM. It is bad enough that as flawed humans, we set ourselves up with 'do as I say, not as I do' moments - they can be reduced/eliminated at the curriculum/system level with some simple consideration and thought.

Let's get this straight. Tell me about ALL the precautions and safety regulations you need to have a full contact no armor event. Make sure you take the same premise as you took in your initial post.
At what point would you say this is a good idea, because you thought it WAS a good idea in your initial post.

Answer your own questions here publicly to satisfy your own inquiries.

Let's see if your "do as I say... not as I do" maxim still fits.

I do warn you that I will be a good defensive marketing armchair critic, so make it good.

SHOW ME.

8. Again, voluntary does not eliminate that it is lethal force, especially when you are talking about it taking multiple power shots to the head with rattan in order to knock out a person.....WOW if that isn't demonstration of intent I don't know what is.

Wow, if that doesn't say selective reading. You did miss the FACT that people submitted prior to getting multiple shots to the head that KOs them correct? That it kept people HONEST?

9. The answers are not there because you won't give them. Constant dodging leaves me with the impression that either you don't know or it is not all covered/on the up and up OR you are 'legend building.' I think Janulis' post references some possible interpretations to consider.

Or you failed to contact the person holding the event when a direct link was posted for you. Not very good on the after action report.

10. Ah, the 'stick fight' idea again.... I thought it was a 'no rules' event and I also thought it was a way to test the 'reality' of what you can make work... I don't see the reality of 'dueling skills training' in todays world.

Perhaps you haven't broken it down to the elements that focuses on the skill sets required to be practical.

I gave you some examples, but selective reading tends to blur that distinction.

I DO see how those skills can be reorganized/refocused in a self defense curriculum to meet the real world needs of today's civilian existence...even LEO/MILITARY don't/can NOT operate the way 'it use to be done' in all cases and they DON"T DUEL! - Peacekeeping missions and such require more judgement than lethal force skills for instance.

So you're telling us in Sayoc Kali what the military wants and can do.
Which branch do you currently have a contract with?


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[Sun_Helmet]

The 'old hickory' was not supposed to be placed on the head when I was there and yet it sometimes can/could not be avoided, but you had better have had a good reason even in the bad/good old days...

You are looking at it from the perspective that only YOU have the stick. Instead, the stick grappling we focused on allowed someone to close on a person armed with an impact weapon and either disarm, or stay away from impact points. It allowed them to understand that sometimes the below the neck shots don't work and perhaps they need to find FASTER more EFFICIENT tactics to restrain someone.

It also allowed them ways to get to a lost stick. To make sure a lost stick isn't near the other person.

In terms of having a stick, it shows them HOW they can close and use the stick to put a lock on someone that also has an impact weapon. Without hitting them repetitively. Not only does it promotes unwarranted exchange, but it may not be as effective as another option.

--Rafael--

 

[loki09789]

That coyness won't work here. Someone asked a specific question. In any case marketing is part of your agenda as well. We can go over details in your comments and links to your site if you'd like.

You call it fight club since that is your defensive marketing kicking in. You weren't involved but you showed interest. Now you abhor the behavior.

I can find you my own LEOs and lawyers who disagree. .

Actually Steve L. posted a DIRECT email link for questions to Tuhon Tom Kier who was the person holding the event. Let's be honest and tell everyone if you followed up that info. Why not get the info STRAIGHT from the person holding the event?

For someone who states they do tactical instruction, it isn;t very sound security precautions.

We don't need to defensively market our system on the backs of others.

You do know that's what you are doing right?

I do warn you that I will be a good defensive marketing armchair critic, so make it good.

Wow, if that doesn't say selective reading. You did miss the FACT that people submitted prior to getting multiple shots to the head that KOs them correct? That it kept people HONEST?

Perhaps you haven't broken it down to the elements that focuses on the skill sets required to be practical.

So you're telling us in Sayoc Kali what the military wants and can do.
Which branch do you currently have a contract with?


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

Oh, good grief...

1. I haven't listed my program name (btw, don't have a website to refer to since you didn't bother checking), haven't offered my program as superior (especially since I haven't even mentioned any training details what so ever - only concepts). How can I be defensively or even offensively marketing anything?

2. No the full contact wasn't a concern nor was the injury risk - I have accepted the level of risk for actions in the past and will do so in the future ...the lack of clear information, openly given (don't give me this 'security' reason because it is a simple issue of only letting in the registered list of players and all others are not allowed in the door - all this secrecy stuff is 'mysterious' more than 'tactical'), reasonable protective gear or mention of insurance/liability/legitimacy/EMT... was what concerned me. I have YET to get a straight answer from you about any of these issues since you were the one I was asking most recently - if you feel that the information is accessable and easy to find - get it and answer those questions posted/directed at you.

3. As far as the head shots...what's the point. Much like my military time, the idea that you need to train being 'wet, cold and miserable' is BS, so is the idea that you have to get hit in the head, full contact in order to know what it will do. I know what it will do from safer and just as 'real' variations that reduce the risk of concussions and death/brain damage.

4. You might be a good armchair critic, but you aren't doing so well at explaining how this was a legal, insured, resonsible or philosophically aligned event based on the Sayoc disclaimer. You talk to your lawyer/leo consultants, give us quoted testamonials ABOUT THIS EVENT in reference to use of force and then we will see. I have read the testamonials from the people on the website, they all praise the art and its 'fightness' but show me in the curriculum/system that issues of state laws and use of force continuums are being taught/applied. Show me where this type of event fits into the systematic approach of tactical development.

5. "Skill sets to be practical...." practical for WHAT? That is what tactical training is about: Context. I can train someone to do a backflip and it might be the greatest backflip in the world but, outside of a tournament competition, it is going to have a very small justified application in training.

You are talking about building validity and training models based on a duel between two willing fighters carrying rattan fighting to 'knock out/submission'... how does that help the soldier/leo/civilian contextually and directly? Especially when each of those contextual applications are LOADED with considerations that the dueling environment won't even touch.

Basically it doesn't. How long do I have before his back up/friends/cops/... can jump in? How far is my nearest support/safe place to get to? Which way is good for me to escape? How do I take this guy out and not give away my position or comprimise my team/squad/unit? Which way do I have to push this guy/guys to keep them away from my wife/child/intended victim/injured buddy?

All questions/problems that won't even be addressed so how is your stick fight model 'practical' for these types of needs?

I was in the military, participated in the training and was trained as an NCO (as all NCO's are leader and teacher) to be a military instructor, so I think I understand what the military mission prep/needs fairly well. I also know that this type of 'technical expert' contracting has its place but will have to be modified to fit the context...modification from stick dueling to combat is going to be a BIG stretch IMO.

Until you can reasonably prove to me that it was a legal event and can reasonably explain how this type of event is aligned philosophically within that disclaimer about knowing and working within the use of force laws, I don't need to read the 'flip the script' technique of trying to undermine my comments. Doesn't prove the event legallity/validity or back up your claims when you seem to be acting in an "unofficial Wendy's spokesman" capacity.