Full Contact No Armor Event!

[Sun_Helmet]

Hi Sun_Helmet,

The more information you are giving the more I can relate to the very things you are saying.
I have been in lots of controlled contests and sure we got damaged a little. With the idea of instructors yelling out instructions and others being quiet leads one to believe, this was what you are saying it was. (training exercise)

Yes, you have clairified many times, hooked, line, and sinker is not something I think was happening. The time outs were probably there and other ways of saving someone from permanent damage( like for like )not a black belt against a white new be dude (belt)..

I will have to follow up on your school more, based on your techs. regarding debate...

Regards, Gary

Thanks Gary. I respect the fact that you kept your mind open and kept the discussion from the spiraling from a negative to something productive.

I will be gone without email access on a special project, and hopefully if anyone else wants to discuss anything about Sayoc they ask Guro Steve L. when he returns from Sweden. We also have folks who can help on sayoc.com

Regards,
--Rafael--

 

[arnisandyz]

Yes, that is the norm of most research on close quarter stick. We are developing ways (or maybe 'uncovering') to make the stick useful in a close quarter environment that doesn't involve trying to get an impact strike at such a range--Rafael--

Hi Rafael,

Has Tuhon Ray shared with the Sayoc group his method of "Punyo Mano"? He has done a good job of incorporating different systems (including Sayoc Kali and Modern Arnis) to address this range.

Thanks

Andy

 

[loki09789]

If it were so, no one would be allowed to use them in FMA training and it would not have been the UNIVERSAL TRAINING TOOL of our FMA ancestors.

Why do the FMA use rattan?... to make the training HONEST, to keep the impact HONEST but NOT deadly.

Why did the Filipinos CONTINUE to use rattan as a training tool even AFTER the Spanish were ousted? The manongs understood from HONEST training that it was the closest thing and the safest thing to reality.

If one were to research all the recorded unpadded stick 'death' matches...if you can actually find any; you will note that they did NOT use rattan. They used bahi or kamagong.

--Rafael--

Again, it isn't the tool but the usage that makes it a deadly force weapon. TGace has already made reference to that explanation. I would hesitate to use tradition as a rationale for swinging rattan at someone's head. I am not disagreeing with the wood/grass - but how you are applying it.

If you can't distinguish that much, the idea that you know the local self defense/use of force laws as a 'lead by example' instructor/leader way to go is lacking - even though you ask that practitioners be versed in your website disclaimer.

As far as the rest...what can I say, you continue to avoid answering direct questions, make clear explanations....I guess it is just more advertising. In the end it was awefully structured for a 'no rules' event. What if someone didn't comply with the third party calls: remember it was no rules so they really don't have to comply - and may not be able to hear under the stress of fight or flight (there have been personal accounts of tunnel vision and loss of hearing in some cases) so even if they wanted to play fair (which implies rules) they might not be able to based on the physiological nature of stress.

Also, some of the things you are tagging on me, weren't from me. But one I will address is the 'car' issue. If you HIT someone with a car (as any deer) I would think that counts as an Impact tool. If you hit someone they call it vehicular homicide/manslaughter....again it isn't the 'thing' that makes it an impact tool but the function in the moment/usage...

Nice side step of the legal reference btw.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Again, it isn't the tool but the usage that makes it a deadly force weapon. TGace has already made reference to that explanation. I would hesitate to use tradition as a rationale for swinging rattan at someone's head. I am not disagreeing with the wood/grass - but how you are applying it.

And I am stating is that you are limited in understanding the USAGE of rattan in FMA training we incorporate and continue to retread the same issue that MOST of the readers and FMAs UNIVERSALLY understand.

If you can't distinguish that much, the idea that you know the local self defense/use of force laws as a 'lead by example' instructor/leader way to go is lacking - even though you ask that practitioners be versed in your website disclaimer.

Well that's another 'IF' that is incorrect.

As far as the rest...what can I say, you continue to avoid answering direct questions, make clear explanations....I guess it is just more advertising.

Others here have UNDERSTOOD my plain answers and stated so in this very page, perhaps you need to reassess your own comprehension skills.

As far as the rest...what can I say, you continue to avoid In the end it was awefully structured for a 'no rules' event. What if someone didn't comply with the third party calls: remember it was no rules so they really don't have to comply - and may not be able to hear under the stress of fight or flight (there have been personal accounts of tunnel vision and loss of hearing in some cases) so even if they wanted to play fair (which implies rules) they might not be able to based on the physiological nature of stress.

Covered the 'NO Rules' post probe already.

There was no unnecessary 'stress', I was there.

Also, some of the things you are tagging on me, weren't from me. But one I will address is the 'car' issue. If you HIT someone with a car (as any deer) I would think that counts as an Impact tool. If you hit someone they call it vehicular homicide/manslaughter....again it isn't the 'thing' that makes it an impact tool but the function in the moment/usage...

Have you ever done any training with rattan? Does it feel like the same impact as a car?

Again you state a false premise, your function/usage analogy is incorrect.

Nice side step of the legal reference btw.

Addressed it... MOST people here understand it... you're a special case.

Here's your first post on the thread:

...and this idea that there are 'no rules' IMO will always be a load of BS in a commerical event because there is no way on God's green earth that an event with no rules would get 'sanctioned' or insured.

Besides, if there are no rules (and more importantly, no consequences), then i win because I'll bring my car instead of a stick .
__________________
Paul R. Martin

I think you answered yourself.. there WERE rules, but it wasn't commercial in the terms that there were spectators who paid or money was exchanged.

Looks like there's some slippage on your 'deadly force' morality issue as well, since you wanted to use a car and the ONLY thing holding you back was consequences.


--Rafael--

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Hi Rafael,

Has Tuhon Ray shared with the Sayoc group his method of "Punyo Mano"? He has done a good job of incorporating different systems (including Sayoc Kali and Modern Arnis) to address this range.

Thanks

Andy

Yes. Tuhon Ray is one of the best stick and blade instructors in the world. Anyone who has a chance to train with him is a lucky person.


In the late 80's and early 90's we used to travel up and down the East coast trying to promote the FMAs. We used to enter as many MA tournaments to compete in THEIR rules or give a chance to demo FMA. During that era, it was a VERY difficult arena. So I'm used to people using their limited understanding of FMAs in general.

Decades later, we have seen the FMA grow and feel that this growth made all the barriers we and others have torn down and the hard looonng weekends of travel worth it.

As per folks who want to play 'brother's keeper' to the FMA... we were doing this before everyone ever thought the FMA was a legitimate family.

--Rafael--

 

[arnisandyz]

Yes. Tuhon Ray is one of the best stick and blade instructors in the world. Anyone who has a chance to train with him is a lucky person.


In the late 80's and early 90's we used to travel up and down the East coast trying to promote the FMAs. We used to enter as many MA tournaments to compete in THEIR rules or give a chance to demo FMA. During that era, it was a VERY difficult arena. So I'm used to people using their limited understanding of FMAs to build division amongst MAs in general. Some places wouldn't let us if we were not wearing Karate gis..lol... so we found ways to get around that.

Decades later, we have seen the FMA grow and feel that this growth made all the barriers we tore down and the hard looonng weekends of travel worth it.

As per folks who want to play 'brother's keeper' to the FMA... we were doing this before everyone ever thought the FMA was a legitimate family.

--Rafael--

Rafael,

Yeah, Tuhon Ray has shared with us some stories of the "older days" and has used those experiences (mainly fighting) to explain some of his methodology of Punyo Mano. He has some old fight footage on his website if anyone is interested.

Do you know if there is any chance of Sayoc Kali bringing their SamaSama back down to Florida?

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Do you know if there is any chance of Sayoc Kali bringing their SamaSama back down to Florida?

Andy, there are no plans to bring Sama Sama down south - the majority of instructors are up north and the logistics these days would be tougher for them to make the trip.

Btw, I saw Travis this weekend at Instructor camp, and he showed us the panther teeth holes in his shirt. (no that is NOT part of Sayoc training...yet...

--Rafael--

 

[loki09789]

1. And I am stating is that you are limited in understanding the USAGE of rattan in FMA training we incorporate and continue to retread the same issue that MOST of the readers and FMAs UNIVERSALLY understand.

2. Others here have UNDERSTOOD my plain answers and stated so in this very page, perhaps you need to reassess your own comprehension skills.

3. Covered the 'NO Rules' post probe already.

4. There was no unnecessary 'stress', I was there.

5. Have you ever done any training with rattan? Does it feel like the same impact as a car?

6. Again you state a false premise, your function/usage analogy is incorrect.

7. Addressed it... MOST people here understand it... you're a special case.

--Rafael--

1. Were head shots used? Yes. That is all I need to know.
2. I comprehend well enough. You are avoiding my 'legal/sanctioned/insurance' questions. Got it.
3. Do you mean the 'no rules' advertising probe (which would mean sensationalism) or your accusation (assumption) that I only inquired to set up this line of comments - which isn't true. IF I found out that there was no 'armor' but that there were going to be some kind of padding added to the stick that was provided to disperse/deaden the point impact of the head shots...well maybe not that date because of timing, but another one that fit better. I have seen that done - even in the Sayoc website pics.
4. I am sorry, but how valid is your experiment or your data for real time usage if the person is not going to be experiencing fight or flight stress? Besides which, since the reaction is indivdual - what you thought was not there might have been for someone else.
5. No it doesn't ( I would imagine but I figure at this point you woudn't mind if I tested that theory), but then again, I didn't use the 'no rules' statement.
6. Funny, my local county prosecutor agreed with me when I did finally consult him today. He also said that the lack of up front/open information should be a warning signal that things aren't 'legit' and any such events should be avoided because of 'colateral liability/culpability.'
7. Yes, I seem to be a special case if I am the only one who recognizes the inherent danger of such a 'mysterious' event and the lack of legitimacy in practice and advertising....


I suppose that I will be accused of 'false assumptions' again even though I cited your comments and data along with my comments during the phone interview. Unlike the original advertisement and your posts, I was up front with the data when I talked to him. If I was wrong, I would have eaten crow and asked for ketchup, but based on what you yourself have said, this type of event can get every participant/coordinator in trouble in the criminal and civil sense.

Here's simple questions for you - again: What was the plan if someone was injured seriously? Were there EMT's ON SITE? Was the event covered by insurance?

You participated and are a Tuhon type in the organization, I would think that you could answer a simple 'yes' or 'no' to these questions without giving up any secrets.

 

[arnisandyz]

Andy, there are no plans to bring Sama Sama down south - the majority of instructors are up north and the logistics these days would be tougher for them to make the trip.

Btw, I saw Travis this weekend at Instructor camp, and he showed us the panther teeth holes in his shirt. (no that is NOT part of Sayoc training...yet...

--Rafael--

LOL...yeah, i've seen pictures of Travis doing "buno" with some of the big cats he works with, pretty nuts.

I know Guro Mike Sayoc, who has helped host the previous SamaSamas, is still here in Kissimmee. Is he pretty much doing his own thing seperate of you guys? If its to "political" in nature to answer, I understand.

Thanks

Andy

 

[Cruentus]

Rapheal,

I have a couple of questions. This may have been covered in the thread already, but my brain leaks out of my ears when I read more then 3 posts on this thread for some reason. Soon, I'll be a babbling idiot.....woe...wait a second here...

#1. Could you explain in some detail the Sayoc Kali strategy for stick fighting. I am hearing a lot about avoidence of the Corto range because that is where the stick can be most damaging. The impression I am getting is that the strategy is to chip away at your opponent in the largo range and end it there, or to close the gap from the largo to the grappling range and out grapple your opponent, depending on how strong of a largo player or grappler you are compared to your opponent. But mainly, when all things are equal, you guys aim to avoid the corto range. Am I understanding this correctly? Please help me understand.

#2. A question that I keep seeing, but I see no answer to, is how many people were at the event and what styles were represented. If you don't want to say so, no problem, but could you please tell me why. I guess I am just missing the importance of this question, or why you wouldn't want to answer this one. You can PM me on this if you want to keep it out of the public thread if that would be best.

Thanks man, and thanks for your patience. Now...time to go work on my suplex into the flaming table maneuver...

Yours,

PJMOD

 

[Michael Billings]

Tulisan, great post! And the offer to take it to PM or email. A couple of you bashing away at each other vis-a-vis keyboards instead of sticks, could learn from this example.

-Michael

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Rapheal,
#1. But mainly, when all things are equal, you guys aim to avoid the corto range. Am I understanding this correctly?

In Sayoc Kali, due to SK's CQ knife training the corto range is what many of our guys excel at. Therefore tendency is to engage in what one knows best. However, after one does enough padded/armored stick fighting, they realize that with longer weapons and almost equal skill sets, staying at that range TOO long outweighs the positives. So they begin to increase skill at largo range and then stick grappling range. Many of our students have done grappling so they are now adapting the stick to grappling range. Some have done a lot of largo as well if they also train in our stick curriculum. It is difficult to learn stick grappling with padded sticks, the way the techniques are designed the padded sticks do not offer the same 'honesty' as a hard stick. It is less about impact, but more about the manipulation and locks that require no give at certain points.

So when we take the training to the level of rattan, with minimum padding, we have them whittle away their tendency to stay at corto. They don't WANT to stay in corto, but their ego wants them to stay in and get the shot as they did when they were padded up. The best reason to evade corto range, you are open to all the other limb strikes, take downs, and stick strikes at power arcs as well. The students reassess their timing and conditioned responses. So when two people good at corto range fight, the fastest way to win is to close by baiting corto and taking them down.

If the takedown fails you are BACK in corto range so do not try to stay in grappling mode and try again. Even if you think you are attempting another takedown... You cover/clear and escape to largo as FAST as possible. At any time you are in corto and you are NOT the one making the ONLY contact (before and after the strike) that means your tactic is flawed and you need to close or evade.

Body shifting is excellent for ONE counter as you make impact. If you do not make impact and maintain corto, the highest probability is that a stick fighter with grappling skills will have you in their guard or swept in the air. When one is swinging with power it is tougher to evade a takedown. When you reset the range away from corto, and the grappler attempts to do a takedown then THEY are in corto range.

So the short answer is , avoid the corto range unless you make the only impact strike, with equal skills you should follow to grappling or largo depending on how much better you are in those ranges against the other person.

The Sayoc stick grappling DVD will show all kinds of scenarios, only one fight ended quickly and that was by the person who excelled in stick grappling, as well as largo and corto. It was a standup submission and he had BOTH sticks by then. He used guntings against a lowline kick, and used the extra stick to keep the opponent at bay and the used it to bait them into his submission stick lock.

#2. A question that I keep seeing, but I see no answer to, is how many people were at the event and what styles were represented. If you don't want to say so, no problem, but could you please tell me why. I guess I am just missing the importance of this question, or why you wouldn't want to answer this one. You can PM me on this if you want to keep it out of the public thread if that would be best.

Mainly because whatever number I say will give others more pages to waste about my 'evasion' of details if they do not pop up on the DVD. So whatever number of participants one sees in the DVD would be the best way to count who was there. I think there is four or more scenarios on the DVD. To us who were there, we know the number and some chose not to be included, other fights were redundant (as far as outcome and techniques/tactics) so were edited due to space. As far as styles, since Sayoc does not involve itself in outside politics, we have students who crosstrain and encourage them to seek as much knowledge from every kind of FMA or MA out there. What we teach fits in no matter what they train so we escape that form of 'classical mess'.

Hope this made sense Tulisan. Good name btw. There's a book on the Katipunan that covers the history of the Tulisanes.

--Rafael--

 

[Sun_Helmet]

1. Were head shots used? Yes. That is all I need to know.

We KNOW that's 'all you need to know'... that's what causes a false premise.

2. I comprehend well enough. You are avoiding my 'legal/sanctioned/insurance' questions. Got it.

We KNOW you 'Got it'. That's the problem.

3. Do you mean the 'no rules' advertising probe (which would mean sensationalism)

It's a probe. Sensationalism would not include blatant inconsistencies on the following sentence. We would have stated that submission was NOT allowed.

or your accusation (assumption) that I only inquired to set up this line of comments - which isn't true. IF I found out that there was no 'armor' but that there were going to be some kind of padding added to the stick that was provided to disperse/deaden the point impact of the head shots...well maybe not that date because of timing, but another one that fit better. I have seen that done - even in the Sayoc website pics.

Which of course PROVES there were inconsistencies on our 'sensationalistic' probe. As stated red flags were placed, YOU just indicated that, and STILL make a false assumption.

4. I am sorry, but how valid is your experiment or your data for real time usage if the person is not going to be experiencing fight or flight stress? Besides which, since the reaction is indivdual - what you thought was not there might have been for someone else.

Because fight or flight was not the purpose of the training as stated several pages back. The post above this to Tulisan and other details I have covered pages with indicate that, but you STILL go back to the same false premise. You are placing your own training limitations on our curriculum.

5. No it doesn't ( I would imagine but I figure at this point you woudn't mind if I tested that theory), but then again, I didn't use the 'no rules' statement.

No, but I wished you HAD taken the extra step and contacted the direct event source when given the opportunity.

6. Funny, my local county prosecutor agreed with me when I did finally consult him today. He also said that the lack of up front/open information should be a warning signal that things aren't 'legit' and any such events should be avoided because of 'colateral liability/culpability.

I suppose if I stated that a former prosecutor and several lawyers from the event state were consulted prior to the event.. it wouldn't change your mind. One man's expert can contest another's. The best PROOF are the results. FMA training has been this way for hundreds of years.

7. Yes, I seem to be a special case if I am the only one who recognizes the inherent danger of such a 'mysterious' event and the lack of legitimacy in practice and advertising....

It is only 'mysterious' if you never followed up with the direct source.

I suppose that I will be accused of 'false assumptions' again even though I cited your comments and data along with my comments during the phone interview. Unlike the original advertisement and your posts, I was up front with the data when I talked to him. If I was wrong, I would have eaten crow and asked for ketchup, but based on what you yourself have said, this type of event can get every participant/coordinator in trouble in the criminal and civil sense.

False premise and lack of comprehension of what I REALLY wrote. The only way a participant/coordinator could get in trouble is if they did every thing we did NOT. As several metaphors wrongly indicated, we gave the fellow the parachute- we didn't throw it at him after he leapt. The accident would happen if the chute didn't open. The same accident can happen during ANY stick training with live rattan. A concussion can happen during ice skating. That does not mean deadly force was being encouraged or the purpose of the training. In fact, if the very event was to encourage STICK GRAPPLING as a safer/efficient alternative to corto range striking it supports the TRAINING purpose of the event.

Here's simple questions for you - again: What was the plan if someone was injured seriously? Were there EMT's ON SITE? Was the event covered by insurance?

A simple question in THREE parts...lol.
There is a Sayoc plan because injury has happened before in other training, some serious even from something that happened unrelated to training. However, within our ranks are EMT/Medics from the civilian and SF military sectors. Within our ranks are surgeons and orthopedic doctors. Within our ranks are just about every expertise one can think of. This is why Sayoc is a 'We' answer, not an 'I' answer. If YOU do not know medical management then I will not attempt to teach you here. Therefore, by deductive reasoning you would know we have several insurance people as students and consultants.

You participated and are a Tuhon type in the organization, I would think that you could answer a simple 'yes' or 'no' to these questions without giving up any secrets.

Yes.

--Tuhon type--

 

[Michael Billings]

Mainly because whatever number I say will give others more pages to waste about my 'evasion' of details if they do not pop up on the DVD. So whatever number of participants one sees in the DVD would be the best way to count who was there. I think there is four or more scenarios on the DVD.

This seems like blatent advertisment and will not be tolerated. I will not debate whether this is "selling" or not, but if you continue this, the thread will be locked and post deleted.

It is also a blatent evasion of a perfectly reasonable question regarding any event. It is up to you whether to answer it, but your "rationale" is specious and appears mercenary and driven by a profit motive.

-Michael Billings
MT SModerator

 

[Sun_Helmet]

This seems like blatent advertisment and will not be tolerated. I will not debate whether this is "selling" or not, but if you continue this, the thread will be locked and post deleted.

It is also a blatent evasion of a perfectly reasonable question regarding any event. It is up to you whether to answer it, but your "rationale" is specious and appears mercenary and driven by a profit motive.

-Michael Billings
MT SModerator

Here's a reason:

In our system we have group pics after closed seminars and events. You often see eighty people, but that may be half of who were really there. Unlike what some folks are accustomed to, Sayoc events sometimes have individuals who have jobs that don't allow their identities to be exposed. You can all surmise why.

What if I said there were thirty? Fifty? Two?

Do we go on several pages trying to find out the names of said participants?

Hope that clears it up.

If anyone wants to further continue this, take it to sayoc.com and we can avoid any marketing assumptions.


--Rafael--

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm webmaster for about 20 different martial arts sites, including a few which deal with LEO and other 'identity-sensitive' individuals. The solutions to the identity problem is easy.

1- Don't take their picture
2- If you do, don't put it online
3- If they are in a crown shot, blue the face.

Saying there were 30, 40, 10, whatever will not violate their privacy or safety. A caption "Event participants and guests" on the pic would easily dispell any suggestion of artificially inflating the numbers.

When asked who was there, you can easily state the ones you can, and a blanket "as well as other members of XXX who for safety and security reasons requested anonimity."

 

[Sun_Helmet]

I'm webmaster for about 20 different martial arts sites, including a few which deal with LEO and other 'identity-sensitive' individuals. The solutions to the identity problem is easy.

1- Don't take their picture
2- If you do, don't put it online
3- If they are in a crown shot, blue the face.

Saying there were 30, 40, 10, whatever will not violate their privacy or safety. A caption "Event participants and guests" on the pic would easily dispell any suggestion of artificially inflating the numbers.

When asked who was there, you can easily state the ones you can, and a blanket "as well as other members of XXX who for safety and security reasons requested anonimity."

What do you do if they are in the background of a moving picture or if they are the participants of said film? We don't have the tech to blur images. The best option is to edit them out.

What if the two individuals were edited merely for redundancy and dvd space?

By counting them, the followup question would be to VERIFY they were there at all, which would be counter productive and moot.

One of the reasons we have a close relationship with certain agencies is that we go above and beyond to shield their identity. Correction: In fact, we KNOW they don't want to be part of the pics... so it doesn't even go to the point of requesting removal of them on the pic.

If some of you really have to have a number, say... fifty, as well as other members of XXX who for safety and security reasons requested anonymity.


--Rafael--

 

[Bob Hubbard]

A $400 PC, a copy of Linux, and a search of various free software sites will turnup several programs capable of doing that. If you do a search on a program called "GIMP", it may be useful. It is a free graphics editor with the power of Photoshop, but for free. It does run on both Windows and Linux.

Some VCRs and Camcorders also have advanced editing features. Ask the company who masters your DVD's to do the quick edit job for you. If you're burning the DVDs on a home box, it also easily has the power to do the edit and rerender job.

Saying "We had 10 CIA Assassins at our party" and showing 10 blurred shadows, won't violate national security.

Now, this is a shameless plug: If your video people can't do it, I might be able to. I've done graphic and video work for several people, most recently Datu Hartman. (I'm the video editor for his video projects). If you'd like my help, let me know off board and we can discuss it in more depth.

 

[loki09789]

1. Because fight or flight was not the purpose of the training as stated several pages back. The post above this to Tulisan and other details I have covered pages with indicate that, but you STILL go back to the same false premise. You are placing your own training limitations on our curriculum.

2. No, but I wished you HAD taken the extra step and contacted the direct event source when given the opportunity.

3. I suppose if I stated that a former prosecutor and several lawyers from the event state were consulted prior to the event.. it wouldn't change your mind. One man's expert can contest another's. The best PROOF are the results. FMA training has been this way for hundreds of years.

4. It is only 'mysterious' if you never followed up with the direct source.

5. A simple question in THREE parts...lol.
There is a Sayoc plan because injury has happened before in other training, some serious even from something that happened unrelated to training. However, within our ranks are EMT/Medics from the civilian and SF military sectors. Within our ranks are surgeons and orthopedic doctors. Within our ranks are just about every expertise one can think of. This is why Sayoc is a 'We' answer, not an 'I' answer. If YOU do not know medical management then I will not attempt to teach you here. Therefore, by deductive reasoning you would know we have several insurance people as students and consultants.

--Tuhon type--

1. No it wasn't the purpose but the purpose was suppose to show/prove what did work in real fight time...I think that word 'fight' would indicate half of the 'fight or flight' idea. So, not acknowledging or accounting for its affect in reality on a fighter's performance and only focusing on getting techniques off isn't very real to me.

2. As I said, as well as the Prosecutor, if an event is on the up and up, with no alterior motives (advertising, promotion, abuse, legitious/civil liability risks) then I shouldn't get dodges and have to go behind close doors for more info. Bob made a good point along the same lines with the picture/attendance issue. Either say it out right or don't say it at all.

3. It very well might, but since all you say to my questions is "We had it covered" and "your assuming"...how can I know anything. Again, either say it out right or don't even bring it up.

4. Covered in #2

5. Actually the wording was "Simple question*s* for you...." so I don't know what your referring to with the beginning of that comment. Great, you had people with medical training there because they were part of your organization, but if you had people hitting each other with sticks in the head and didn't have EMT (meaning on duty with an ambulance and response equiptment) there, that is pretty irresponsible to me. Again you 'answer' with information, but no real structure or details.

This is my last public post on this (for real this time). Ultimately, I think the marketing/Public Relations strategy of being secretive but 'open' leaves too many people with questions about motives (whether training or advertising) and responsibility of practice.

I know I am saying it again (but gee isn't that what having a consistent stance is all about?), if it was 'legit' and there was no reason to be 'closed door' other than to create this aura of mystery then simply answering questions about attendance and results with "20" or what ever would be a great way to avoid that impression.

I don't see Blauer/Wagner/MacYoung types who are of the tactical schools of martial arts doing the 'secret society' thing in their approach. It is all in the open and upfront. They are very well respected and 'contracted' by LEO/Military as well as civilian types - and I imagine because they don't create the mystery around themselves they seem a hell of a lot more accessable than the "Beeatches come to me" approach to advertising.

If you want to continue this in PM that would be fine with me. I have explained what my 'positive goals' were. If they were in contrast to promoting or stroking the Sayoc ego, oh well. I still haven't seen anything that convinces me that this was anything other than a 'fight club' event (btw, the philosophical justification for the fight club in the book/movie was to 'gain experience' through 'fighting' and discovering who you were in strife) designed to promote another DVD.

Tyler from FIGHT CLUB :"The first rule of fight club is, you do not talk about fight club. The second rule of fight club is, you do not talk about fight club. The third rule of fight club, someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. The fourth rule: only two guys to a fight. The fifth rule, only one fight at a time fellas. The sixth rule: no shirts, no shoes. The seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at fight club, you have to fight.")

 

[Sun_Helmet]

...showing 10 blurred shadows, won't violate national security.

Now, this is a shameless plug: If your video people can't do it, I might be able to. I've done graphic and video work for several people, most recently Datu Hartman. (I'm the video editor for his video projects). If you'd like my help, let me know off board and we can discuss it in more depth.

Thanks for the offer. We try not to place the 'Invisibles' on any of our public venues, even if we had the tech (which we can on still pics). On the motion stuff, we take your first option, by just taking them out entirely. This way we don't risk anything. Little minute surface skin details or body mannerism, as well as a whole slew of other ways to identify someone visibly are not risked. We just see no positive in it.

If we end up being vague on some questions on a public forum, so be it.

Heard good things about Datu Hartman this weekend from one of our MA guys. So I'm sure his commercial dvds do real well, and have excellent production.

--Rafael--