Full Contact No Armor Event!

[pakua]

I can't accept this they became accountable for themselves notion.

Just because I know the dangers of people coming at me with sticks and accept that it's up to me to fend them off, doesn't make it right for the other guy to kill me. I hope that the law would still see my death as manslaughter at minimum, and perhaps as murder even, since it could be argued that you were actually doing your best to kill me.

 

[loki09789]

So that's why you tried to make the metaphor work for YOU previously riiiigggghtttt?

--Rafael--

Not a metaphor, simple comparison of how/when you accept risks.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

No, I didn't intend to go when I couldn't get ANY direct answers in an open announcment...if it is legit, it can be discussed openly.

I think I discussed why it is still legit and still not post ALL the details on an open forum above.

I AM concerned as a 'member of the FMA community' that you have posted would benefit from such events because I don't think it benefits the community of martial arts as a whole when the students you are trying to train will not be able to benefit from the real world lessons if they are seriously injured/killed in the name of training. There is a legal term of collateral liability for who will be held accountable for anything.

That's because YOU set up a perceived threat in your own mind and ran with it.This isn't something new.

Bart has a good angle on the marketting tactics of this event.

See other post.

Sayoc system is fine. I don't have a problem with the system or people in it - as far as I know .

From our perspective, it matters little.

My main concern and criticism is that this type of event is counter productive to real world training because it is not reality, nor does it enhance/simulate/support reality beyond the stick on stick duel.

See above. Set limitations for yourself not for others.

If this idea that you have to do it 'no rules', 'full contact' and to 'knock out/submission' it the center piece to real training, why don't military units give opfor real bullets during training exercises?

Don't know where you get centerpiece from when I capitalized the word (s) MINUTE DETAILS earlier. Btw, You think Simmunitions don't hurt as much as a stick shot at close range? Anyone ever fire a round at your temple or trachea point blank?

Why were there developments like Shinai/Bokken/blunted weapons for non ballistic/lethal force for bladed weapons training? Because it is hard for a student to use what they learned in that 'real' training when they are dieing/dead or permanently maimed...but hey, the system seniors can use that experience to improve the system based on those lab rat actions.

And in turn, some focused so much on the blunt weapons that they lost the effectiveness of their blade arts. You can see right here in this forum people equating blades to wooden weapons.

As far as the tactical/application appropriate modifications...who is better suited to do that, the user or the techincal expert who is vastly knowledgeable on that one thing but not nearly as knowledgeable as the 'topic expert' who is going to be applying it (Military/LEO)?

Here's where you make an assumption that some of our guys are NOT users. I just gave you one of our students/Apprentice Instructors names and comments in my previous posts. I just mentioned that many of our students just came back from the Middle East. They weren't/aren't there as technical advisors. MOST of our full instructors are in security or actively an LEO. The father of our system's current head retired as a Correctional's Officer. They were ALL users. Again place your limits upon yourself not on others.

Please explain to me how you have modified stick dueling appropriately into the average police force continuum or a military person's rules of engagement (which can change from theater to theater/mission to mission) or a civlians use of force/state penal code.

See above. You're still stuck on the fight club duel not on the MINUTE details that arise within the context. More limits.

Remember my above comment: Not a bash on the whole package, but a criticism on this no armor/full contact/no rules/closed door practice because it doesn't elevate the martial arts/FMA community in my opinion, it perpetuates the myth that ALL martial artists/FMAers practice with no regard for responsible use of force within the current society but are trying to test their mettle based on some misguided interpretation of 'manliness/warriorship' dug up and manipulated from the past. Leaving that impression by actions/events like this only adds to the negative perception and the resistance from the uninitiated to see the benefits/practicallity and personal empowerment of martial arts training.

Well, you can alleviate that by SIMPLY stating that this isn't the FMAs that you teach and it isn't your cup of tea. No one thinks less of you.

Coming in here trying to imply this and that, making negative assumptions without just basically stating you do NOT do this type of thing outright, and just leave and be done with it.... that is called Defensive Marketing.

Politicians do it all the time. They cast negative aspersions upon their opponents. They attempt to demonize another by running with 'out of context' info.

At no time did we in Sayoc Kali state anything negative about any other system or come to threads that do not include us to try and push our own 'concepts' on another's efforts.

Perhaps next time you will know when to be 'done with it'.

--Rafael--

 

[loki09789]

I can't accept this they became accountable for themselves notion.

Just because I know the dangers of people coming at me with sticks and accept that it's up to me to fend them off, doesn't make it right for the other guy to kill me. I hope that the law would still see my death as manslaughter at minimum, and perhaps as murder even, since it could be argued that you were actually doing your best to kill me.

You don't have to accept that BS...well they are accountable for themselves for volunteering for the event, but the guy who is hitting him in the head with the stick is accountable for his intent (which in this case is to apply full contact force to cause knock out/submission).

I mentioned colateral liability... that means the anyone who was involved in organizing, coordinating, encouraging....the environment that set up the head shot/injury/death will also share some culpability.

I do believe that in the hands of a well trained attorney a case could even be made for a murder charge instead of just manslaughter because of the knowing and willful intent to use LETHAL FORCE in the form of a stick to the head.

I am still waiting for SHelmet's answers to my questions since he has taken on the 'spokesman' hat and has yet to do more than throw the ball back in my end of the this court.

SH, If you are going to step up and be the voice that defends this get your ducks in a row instead of deflecting.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

I can't accept this they became accountable for themselves notion.

Just because I know the dangers of people coming at me with sticks and accept that it's up to me to fend them off, doesn't make it right for the other guy to kill me. I hope that the law would still see my death as manslaughter at minimum, and perhaps as murder even, since it could be argued that you were actually doing your best to kill me.

That's a false premise. Do you train in FMA at all?

--Rafael--

 

[loki09789]

1. I think I discussed why it is still legit and still not post ALL the details on an open forum above.

2. That's because YOU set up a perceived threat in your own mind and ran with it.This isn't something new.

3. Set limitations for yourself not for others.

4. Don't know where you get centerpiece from when I capitalized the word (s) MINUTE DETAILS earlier. Btw, You think Simmunitions don't hurt as much as a stick shot at close range? Anyone ever fire a round at your temple or trachea point blank?

5. Here's where you make an assumption that some of our guys are NOT users. I just gave you one of our students/Apprentice Instructors names and comments in my previous posts. I just mentioned that many of our students just came back from the Middle East. They weren't/aren't there as technical advisors. MOST of our full instructors are in security or actively an LEO. The father of our system's current head retired as a Correctional's Officer. They were ALL users. Again place your limits upon yourself not on others.

6. Well, you can alleviate that by SIMPLY stating that this isn't the FMAs that you teach and it isn't your cup of tea. No one thinks less of you.

7. Coming in here trying to imply this and that, making negative assumptions ...that is called Defensive Marketing.
Politicians do it all the time.

8. At no time did we in Sayoc Kali state anything negative about any other system or come to threads that do not include us to try and push our own 'concepts' on another's efforts.

Perhaps next time you will know when to be 'done with it'.

--Rafael--

1. I don't really think you did. I think you tried to but I don't see any details in your statements or anything that would convince me that this is 'legit' as in legal.

2. Dude, what threat? Market? I don't care about your market success relative to mine - because I don't care about market success. I care about training. Again, I am speaking as ME, not as the XYZ guy of some group. I am not promoting myself as instructor. I am talking about what I think are good and bad practices in training. This is bad.

3. I'm not trying to tell you what to do. Just putting up my case because I can see where what you are doing is legally/morally/physically dangerous disproportionate the MINUTE rewards...except for 'legend building' because people talk about it.

4. Well if it is MINUTE, why is the risk justified even for training? If it is such an insignificant component but the inherent risk is so large, why bother?
Yes Simunition hurts/has the potential for causing injury - THAT'S WHY THEY WEAR PROTECIVE GEAR AND ESTABLISH 'RULES' DURING THE SIMULATION/SCENARIO TRAINING! I am not talking about not training hard or with hard contact - just doing it with some sense of social/legal/educational responsibility.

5. How many of them participated in this event? Relative to what reality was revealed from it, what will they do differently as appliers/instructors of self defense/tactical skill based on the results?

6. I can do that, but the general public that is casting those opinions will not be so selective or segregative in their judgement/perception and will, therefore form negative opinions about all martial arts/fma'ers if they hear/learn about stuff like this.

7. Back to the 'threat' comment. I am not a politician nor do I see myself in competition with Sayoc or you, so quit imposing the assumption that my comments are based on fear or a percieved threat to my martial arts reputation...they is motivated by moral conviction.

8. It is not "We" as in sayoc anything, it is you as in SHelmet talking. Unless you have been recognized as the PR contact you are assuming powers you don't have.

9. Your right, maybe I will stop beating my head against the rock of ignorance....

 

[arnisandyz]

As we stated earlier, it just isn't for the participant's benefits, but PRIMARILY for those who observe the DVD that can point out what they lack in their own training, even see something that VALIDATES their training. They will understand that mistakes and missed opportunities do happen, that's what all this is about... getting better.

They are the target audience.

They are the ones who will get the most out of the DVD.


This sounds like creating a DVD was the driving force behind this gathering. You already mentioned Sayoc Kali's agressive marketing. Maybe the "open invitation" title should be changed to "casting call". I'm sure the fights were live and not scripted...but the DVD doesn't sound like a documentation of the event, but the reason FOR the event. You said yourself the event is PRIMARILY for those who will watch the DVD. If this is true, then the underlying marketing tones throughout this thread make more sense.

The problem with combining a documentary with marketing entertainment is that its not always clear were the lines are drawn. Look at Moore's 911. I myself work in the evil business of Advertising and Marketing and we do play with smoke and mirrors at times.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

You don't have to accept that BS...well they are accountable for themselves for volunteering for the event, but the guy who is hitting him in the head with the stick is accountable for his intent (which in this case is to apply full contact force to cause knock out/submission).

I mentioned colateral liability... that means the anyone who was involved in organizing, coordinating, encouraging....the environment that set up the head shot/injury/death will also share some culpability.

I do believe that in the hands of a well trained attorney a case could even be made for a murder charge instead of just manslaughter because of the knowing and willful intent to use LETHAL FORCE in the form of a stick to the head.

I am still waiting for SHelmet's answers to my questions since he has taken on the 'spokesman' hat and has yet to do more than throw the ball back in my end of the this court.

SH, If you are going to step up and be the voice that defends this get your ducks in a row instead of deflecting.

You sure make a lot of false assumptions Paul.

1. No one was injured seriously
2. We had precautions set up
3. Therefore, there isn't this PHANTOM murder case you keep trying as a pseudo internet prosecutor.

Why should anyone need to 'step up' to your own pile of BS?

Btw, I still haven't heard any constructive ideas from your end of the armchair court.

--Rafael--

 

[loki09789]

Why should anyone need to 'step up' to your own pile of BS?

Btw, I still haven't heard any constructive ideas from your end of the armchair court.

--Rafael--

Well, the thread started as an announcement, became an inquiriers venue and now has become a debate topic, not a place for me to 'tell you what to do.'

But, if you are asking for constructive advice/criticism:

1. Be straight and open when you post an event announcement. If someone asks for more info and you have it, DON'T refer them to private email (especially about the rules or safety precautions around a 'full contact' event) but answer it right there. By virtue of the up front/open communication it leaves the impression of confidence and legitimacy in the event.

If you leave it at "talk to me in private for more details" or "Here's this cool thing, but I can't tell you what it is" then you may turn away people who are interested but need more info to feel that it is credible.

2. DON'T make claims that it is for proof/validation and then say to see the proof people have to by the DVD and btw we editted it for highlights....it could be construed as 'we editted it/skewed the results to create the validation'.

3. DON"T DO IT AT ALL! Full contact, yes. No 'armor', Yes. No Rules, NEVER (because the minute you stipulate weapon specifications you have instituted a 'rule') make that claim. Rattan, yes...but not all together like this.

I am sure that even though you don't get the pointed impact of rattan on skull that having your helmet rocked by a rattan stick will induce a reasonbly safe range of reactions (both physiological AND emotional) that the student can experience AND still reflect on after the fact with a much lower risk of head trauma.

4. Don't NOT answer questions about insurance, liability, support/legal administrative/event structure if it is really there. Dodging only feeds suspicion.

That enough our you want more?

 

[Sun_Helmet]

1. I don't really think you did. I think you tried to but I don't see any details in your statements or anything that would convince me that this is 'legit' as in legal.

I think you do not WANT to see.

2. Dude, what threat? Market? I don't care about your market success relative to mine - because I don't care about market success. I care about training. Again, I am speaking as ME, not as the XYZ guy of some group. I am not promoting myself as instructor. I am talking about what I think are good and bad practices in training. This is bad.

It is 'perceived' because nothing of the sort that you mentioned as a given has happened for several decades now. This wasn't a fight club thing that you ran with in your own mind.

3. I'm not trying to tell you what to do.

Sure you are. You're also telling EVERYONE else here what to do. Do it YOUR way... it is the MORAL way...This stuff is FIGHT CLUB stuff.. THIS IS BAD. All based on your false assumptions. The less info you have the more you run with your assumptions, which is also self- evident.

Just putting up my case because I can see where what you are doing is legally/morally/physically dangerous disproportionate the MINUTE rewards...except for 'legend building' because people talk about it.

Yet you stated you were WILLING to join right in IF there was insurance and medical personnel etc. You were even going to pass on the info! So it was not the ACT of NO ARMOR, FULL CONTACT but the liability/medical issues. It was never about physical SAFETY because the FIRST post stated the NO ARMOR, FULL CONTACT criteria. Therefore, you do not have a case of MORAL superiority.

So when no one POSTED details and GAVE you a DIRECT link to follow up on details that we didn't want exposed on an OPEN forum. You did the 'responsible and MORAL obligation' of NOT following up and basically ran with false assumptions.

In terms of 'legend building', you've talked about it more than we have so thanks!

4. Well if it is MINUTE, why is the risk justified even for training? If it is such an insignificant component but the inherent risk is so large, why bother?

I didn't say INSIGNIFICANT, that's your own limitations popping up once more. MINUTE, meaning deconstructing moves and other tactics universal to certain real life situations.... why bother? Because it may SAVE a life one day. That is why we bother.

Yes Simunition hurts/has the potential for causing injury - THAT'S WHY THEY WEAR PROTECIVE GEAR AND ESTABLISH 'RULES' DURING THE SIMULATION/SCENARIO TRAINING! I am not talking about not training hard or with hard contact - just doing it with some sense of social/legal/educational responsibility.

There were protective gear allowed, just not what you would use. We had mouthpieces and cups. There was an established rule.. submission/ a third party call/ voluntary signal to stop even if one was NOT injured (which falls under submission)

YOU just don't train this way, but try to leave out the melodrama of 'this is FIGHT CLUB' BS, because the above rules haltthe fight before serious injury can occur which is usually when one man is unable to continue (mentally, change of heart or physically) and another is allowed to continue.

5. How many of them participated in this event? Relative to what reality was revealed from it, what will they do differently as appliers/instructors of self defense/tactical skill based on the results?

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.
You might even realize why we never state the number of participants because the DVD will not show individuals who do not wish their identities revealed. If I told you 'fifty' guys showed up and we show 'two' guys on the dvd then you can see where stating the number openly is rather moot.

6. I can do that, but the general public that is casting those opinions will not be so selective or segregative in their judgement/perception and will, therefore form negative opinions about all martial arts/fma'ers if they hear/learn about stuff like this.

You're not going to change their minds by implying that what we do is NOT meant to cause bodily injury or even death to their REAL WORLD attacker if they have to. I think THAT is half of what makes people think the other way.. that martial arts is BS, mystery mumbo jumbo and only for the movies.

7. Back to the 'threat' comment. I am not a politician nor do I see myself in competition with Sayoc or you, so quit imposing the assumption that my comments are based on fear or a percieved threat to my martial arts reputation...they is motivated by moral conviction.

Didn't say you were a politician, I said you doing your own 'legend building' by trying to come off as some moralist who has his own 'concepts' that are better than what you think the Sayoc material is. You can say otherwise, but people here can read your own words.

8. It is not "We" as in sayoc anything, it is you as in SHelmet talking. Unless you have been recognized as the PR contact you are assuming powers you don't have.

Sounds like you're limiting yourself again Paul. Yes, it IS 'WE".
Sayoc Kali works as a group. Especially so when we instruct. Our methods are consolidated from a diversity of expertise. No ONE person has ALL the answers in our group. You are again imposing some sort of label on us that doesn't apply.

In Sayoc Kali, we don't judge our system by how good the higher ranks are, but how good our students become. When our students can APPLY themselves in real time then that means our INSTRUCTION and METHODS work.

9. Your right, maybe I will stop beating my head against the rock of ignorance....

Hey at least you don't stoop to 'demonizing' like a politician Paul.

You can tell when someone resorts to name calling... they have found their limits.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[loki09789]

1. Yet you stated you were WILLING to join right in IF there was insurance and medical personnel etc. You were even going to pass on the info! So it was not the ACT of NO ARMOR, FULL CONTACT but the liability/medical issues. It was never about physical SAFETY because the FIRST post stated the NO ARMOR, FULL CONTACT criteria. Therefore, you do not have a case of MORAL superiority.

2. I didn't say INSIGNIFICANT, that's your own limitations popping up once more. MINUTE, meaning deconstructing moves and other tactics universal to certain real life situations.... why bother? Because it may SAVE a life one day. That is why we bother.

3. There were protective gear allowed, just not what you would use. We had mouthpieces and cups. There was an established rule.. submission/ a third party call/ voluntary signal to stop even if one was NOT injured (which falls under submission)

4. YOU just don't train this way, but try to leave out the melodrama of 'this is FIGHT CLUB' BS, because the above rules haltthe fight before serious injury can occur which is usually when one man is unable to continue (mentally, change of heart or physically) and another is allowed to continue.

5. Sounds like you're limiting yourself again Paul. Yes, it IS 'WE".
Sayoc Kali works as a group. Especially so when we instruct. Our methods are consolidated from a diversity of expertise. No ONE person has ALL the answers in our group. You are again imposing some sort of label on us that doesn't apply.

6. In Sayoc Kali, we don't judge our system by how good the higher ranks are, but how good our students become. When our students can APPLY themselves in real time then that means our INSTRUCTION and METHODS work.

7. Hey at least you don't stoop to 'demonizing' like a politician Paul.

8. You can tell when someone resorts to name calling... they have found their limits.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

1. Those insurance question were the beginning of the inquiries for me. When I was told that I had to contact off the original source announcement like it was going to be a 'secret society meeting'....I chose to see if you (as in your stated WE) were willing to talk about the event openly, you were not. I had no interest in participation because it was not an openly discussed event.

If you had a teen age daughter and her date came to the door and wouldn't answer straight questions like "what are you going to do? Where is it taking place? Are there going to be adults there?" why would you bother asking anything else, the interpretation is that secrets are trying to be maintained...not worth risking my 'daughter' or, in this case, my brain pan.

2. ONe of the first things I learned about self defense/crisis response type of biological reactions is that the MINUTE details matter far less than the will and the gross motor memory because the MINUTE and fine motor operations fall apart once the HR gets over 145 and keeps climbing from the fight or flight response. So your results still remain to me insignificant.

3. Ah...now the 'no rules' issue is changed to 'rules of protective gear' and the aforeNOTmentioned third party call.... If you need a third party call then the player is incapacitated and the head shots are even MORE unjustified because he no longer is posing a reasonable threat to the other player.... I have yet to see any validation from your legal consultants.

4. IF you have to have a third party caller and IF you are taking a stick fight that includes head shots to knock out/submission it only takes ONE shot to concuss the brain that could lead to coma/death if untreated - and even lower grade possibly permanent damage. What do the players say when they go to the emergency room for treatment? I know that GSW have to be reported by law, I wonder how this type of thing would be handled.

5. If it is 'we' then why are 'you' talking as if you know all about SAYOC?

6. THEY as a whole work to develop effective physical artists, no doubt about that - again not talking about the system, talking about this type of training/event as part of that package.

7. How is my statement 'demonizing' I didn't say you dressed up in your mommies nightie or called you an idiot (not that there's anything wrong with that), I said I should know better than beat my head on the rock of igorance...ignorance isn't terminal...just get educated about the legallity and educational alignment/validity of this type of event.

8. You can also tell that the person has run out of proof and valid topical discussion when they start focusing on discrediting the other person's points instead of supporting their own.....

 

[Sun_Helmet]

1. Be straight and open when you post an event announcement. If someone asks for more info and you have it, DON'T refer them to private email (especially about the rules or safety precautions around a 'full contact' event) but answer it right there. By virtue of the up front/open communication it leaves the impression of confidence and legitimacy in the event.

If you leave it at "talk to me in private for more details" or "Here's this cool thing, but I can't tell you what it is" then you may turn away people who are interested but need more info to feel that it is credible.

We disagree, I think people who SERIOUSLY want to know will make the personal contactif they are given it. It is the next progression. Sooner or later you have to make that direct coontact and what better way than to contact the organizer directly. People who are too timid to ask are not going. We wanted people who WANT to go. That makes them more accountable for their actions.

Otherwise, they will just say... "well, I READ on the internet that this was happening and this was written and then someone else posted (who may not even be part of the event)" Then a third party will cut and paste the info posted here and put it elsewhere or to private email.

You end up with a mess. Our event went off without a hitch.

2. DON'T make claims that it is for proof/validation and then say to see the proof people have to by the DVD and btw we editted it for highlights....it could be construed as 'we editted it/skewed the results to create the validation'.

Since you haven't seen the footage that's rather an amusing take. I think what I stated in that list I made earlier on this thread of proof will be self - evident oncethe footage is out. I don't know how it could skew anything because fights ended in different ranges. One can make an educated judegment though on which tactic suits him best. No ONE tactic dominates.

. DON"T DO IT AT ALL! Full contact, yes. No 'armor', Yes. No Rules, NEVER (because the minute you stipulate weapon specifications you have instituted a 'rule') make that claim. Rattan, yes...but not all together like this.

Well, if you followed up the website link and emailed the contact, the fighters would have better information. That's the only people that really matter at that point. Lookeeloos will say what they want anyway.

I am sure that even though you don't get the pointed impact of rattan on skull that having your helmet rocked by a rattan stick will induce a reasonbly safe range of reactions (both physiological AND emotional) that the student can experience AND still reflect on after the fact with a much lower risk of head trauma.

Nope, that only works if there's EVIDENCE that there's a sharp difference between helmet and non helmet. I've been in hundreds of helmet matches... it is totally different. You can ask any FMA who has been there and done that and they will tell youthat students and novices will ALWAYS use the false security of a helmet to stay within striking range. It builds a fasle muscle memory. So many FMAs will not compete in helemt stick fighting matches because of this. The Dog Brothers were created in response to this. They fell under the same scrutiny then and still.

Now you can have a footage and SHOW them that the striking range is only available on the halfbeat. That's it. Unless you're fighting a total untrained person, it very difficult to get clean shots longer than the halfbeat.

4. Don't NOT answer questions about insurance, liability, support/legal administrative/event structure if it is really there. Dodging only feeds suspicion.

It fed a few people's suspicion and you were the one running with it most. Anyone who followed up got the answers they needed. Again it isn't going to come in an open forum like this. No matter how 'mysterious' you may falsely label it. We got the individuals we wanted. No hassles. No complications. It was a smooth operation.

Next.
--Rafael--

 

[loki09789]

1. We disagree, I think people who SERIOUSLY want to know will make the personal contactif they are given it. It is the next progression. Sooner or later you have to make that direct coontact and what better way than to contact the organizer directly. People who are too timid to ask are not going. We wanted people who WANT to go. That makes them more accountable for their actions.

2. Since you haven't seen the footage that's rather an amusing take.

3. I've been in hundreds of helmet matches... it is totally different. You can ask any FMA who has been there and done that and they will tell youthat students and novices will ALWAYS use the false security of a helmet to stay within striking range.

4. Now you can have a footage and SHOW them that the striking range is only available on the halfbeat. That's it. Unless you're fighting a total untrained person, it very difficult to get clean shots longer than the halfbeat.

5. It fed a few people's suspicion and you were the one running with it most. Anyone who followed up got the answers they needed. Again it isn't going to come in an open forum like this. No matter how 'mysterious' you may falsely label it. We got the individuals we wanted. No hassles. No complications. It was a smooth operation.

Next.
--Rafael--

1. So now I and others who wanted answers are being labelle as 'timid'...who's name calling? What if I had contacted the private mail address, got the information and it only solidified my opinion that this was a dangerous, illegal and irresponsible event and called the local/state PD about it to get their perspective...and then told the private email contact that the cops even said it was no good...what then? If there were arrests involved because they broke up this 'Kock fight' type event, would I be 'demonized' as destroying your training practice only to put mine ahead by elimination or would I be viewed as a responsible citizen that was coordinating with my community support network?

2. Read more carefully, the footage doesn't skew, your editting will skew it...that's just plain science. How can I get the 'evident' conclusions unless I see all the same footage that you did in the editing process?

3. Well then, take your already stated 'proven' observations and set up a helmeted contest that has rules that will simulate that type of reaction and encourage training that will engrain what you think is proper application w/o the further risk of brain damage instead of setting up events that are being marketted as proving it again and again...what is the point if it has already been proven?

4. PLUGGGGGGGG.

5. It is mysterious because of the intentional withholding of information openly and clearly. Smooth operation or not, it is still illegal IMO. A drug deal that goes down smooth isn't legit either.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

1. Those insurance question were the beginning of the inquiries for me. When I was told that I had to contact off the original source announcement like it was going to be a 'secret society meeting'....I chose to see if you (as in your stated WE) were willing to talk about the event openly, you were not. I had no interest in participation because it was not an openly discussed event.

Let me get this straight, Paul.
I was NOT on this forum thread til AFTER the event happened.
How can I answer any of your inquiries?

You were given a DIRECT link to the person (still not ME) who was ORGANIZING the event.

Yet somehow you feel that I somehow evaded your first question. My appearance on this forum AFTER the event could not possibly be the reason you didn't attend.

If you even posted on the sayoc forum, I would have at least seen it myself PRIOR to the event. You didn't even do that.

If you had a teen age daughter and her date came to the door and wouldn't answer straight questions like "what are you going to do? Where is it taking place? Are there going to be adults there?" why would you bother asking anything else, the interpretation is that secrets are trying to be maintained...not worth risking my 'daughter' or, in this case, my brain pan.

Wrong analogy.

It's more like your teenage daughter had a friend who told you your daughter was going on a date (on the internet) with a guy and GAVE you his number/email to call to verify the date and time, and all the necessary info to contact the actual event organizers (adult supervision, etc.) themselves.

Instead you chose to ignore it and thought it was TOO mysterious.

Then AFTER the fact you asked me who was there, a person who didn't directly organize the event, to supply you with all the papers and stuff AFTER the DATE. I may be a teacher in the school, but was not the person who had that delegated responsibility from the principal.

Make sense?

2. ONe of the first things I learned about self defense/crisis response type of biological reactions is that the MINUTE details matter far less than the will and the gross motor memory because the MINUTE and fine motor operations fall apart once the HR gets over 145 and keeps climbing from the fight or flight response. So your results still remain to me insignificant.

Because you're still making assumptions. You do NOT develop the required CORRECT gross muscle memory UNLESS you first place under the microscope valid data that supports appropriate training and tactics. Untrained that gross muscle memory can be standing there frozen as someone attacks you.

For example:
No one validated the Tueller drill until someone took footage of it and timed it.
From THAT point people created CORRECT responses based on that data. They studied the MINUTE details down to milliseconds. They understood offlining, obstacles, lateral /circular, when to deploy, etc.. All this was tried and documented.
Now people have CORRECT gross muscle memory responses.

3. Ah...now the 'no rules' issue is changed to 'rules of protective gear' and the aforeNOTmentioned third party call....

It was never changed if you followed up the DIRECT Links. There's even mention of cups and mouthpieces on our website. You're only listening to your daughter's date again.

If you need a third party call then the player is incapacitated and the head shots are even MORE unjustified because he no longer is posing a reasonable threat to the other player.... I have yet to see any validation from your legal consultants.

That's a false assumption.
I have yet to see why there's a need to satisfy you who has no significant positive contribution to us.

4. IF you have to have a third party caller and IF you are taking a stick fight that includes head shots to knock out/submission it only takes ONE shot to concuss the brain that could lead to coma/death if untreated - and even lower grade possibly permanent damage. What do the players say when they go to the emergency room for treatment? I know that GSW have to be reported by law, I wonder how this type of thing would be handled.

Lots of IFs.

5. If it is 'we' then why are 'you' talking as if you know all about SAYOC?

I read about them on the internet.LOL

Who do you need to talk to?

Let me guess, perhaps the DIRECT link that was supplied to you that you didn't care to follow up on.

6. THEY as a whole work to develop effective physical artists, no doubt about that - again not talking about the system, talking about this type of training/event as part of that package.

And we continue to talk.

7. How is my statement 'demonizing' I didn't say you dressed up in your mommies nightie or called you an idiot (not that there's anything wrong with that), I said I should know better than beat my head on the rock of igorance...ignorance isn't terminal...just get educated about the legallity and educational alignment/validity of this type of event.

Cute.
Let me know when you think this material has any positive purpose beyond cheap shots on a keyboard.
People like to toss out personal insults and then 'disguise' it by using it as something they don't really want to own up to. They can get it out there, and then retreat from it.

It's a common trait.

I thought you fashioned yourself a SERIOUS MORAL representative.

8. You can also tell that the person has run out of proof and valid topical discussion when they start focusing on discrediting the other person's points instead of supporting their own.....

I think you're doing just fine discrediting yourself. See the first question.

Let me return to my time machine so I can answer your questions PRIOR to the event.

--Rafael--

 

[MJS]

WOW!! I've been reading this thread for the past 8 pages. Definately some interesting posts. I'd like to add my 2 cents.

First off, if we go back to the very first post, it was simply an invite to anyone who wanted to attend. It appears to me that this was strictly voluntary. I'll say it again...VOLUNTARY. That being said, I really don't see what the other 7 pages have to do with the event? If you don't want to attend because of the contact, no gear, risk factor, etc. then its very simple...DON"T GO!!!!! If people have the stones, and obviously there are those that do, that want to attend, then its strictly THEIR responsibility for ANYTHING that happens.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

Very astute observation Kyle. As stated earlier, we tried to dissuade people from entering the event and what people misinterpret as 'mysterious' evasion of info was a way to filter out the lookeeloos, wannabees, glory hounds, fight club types. If one had previous major injuries they were also out. Human nature allows people to be foolish and take unnecessary risks when they think their pride is on the line if friends, students or family are watching. When you make them WORK for the info and they SHOW their true intent, and AGREE personally to the grounds we lay out, only then do they get the necessary information. Those guys showed up and were given extensive preparation on what this was all about. They become accountable for themselves. They knew what the documentation was for. It wasn't for 'legend building' especially in such a small community - that really means nothing. We've seen and worked with REAL living legends and 90 percent of them are not known by the FMA community or the general populace. To us in Sayoc, they are the true legends.

Rafael,

I would have to agree that you did try to disuade people. And that is fine. I agree with most of your comments on why, yet I repeat that I would have liked a few more days notice to try to clear my schedule to get there.

Yet, as it turned out it is better this way. If I had driven all the way gotten a hotel, to have my techniques and skill be used in a DVD for the profit of others, I would have been upset. Now this does not mean there are ways around this. I have driven when asked to an event, to help out, and was treated with respect, for the asking. I have donated my time for teh benefit of others and took only a tank of gas and a meal in payment, for an event that I was the co instructor at. The other instructor did the same. I just wantd to help. I have also helped a friend to make a DVD for training of his studnets and some friends over seas. If he made money on this in the future I would not be upset. Why because he asked me upfront, and I knew what I was getting into, before the travel and rearrangement of schedules.

As to taking responsibility for yourself, I Agree. :asian:

As to working with those who are not known, I would have to agree, that there are good players out there who no one knows about. Hence in my second post I think, I stated that it was good of you to open this up, not know who would show up.

So for those who want info for free, can demand all they want. You can read in their posts that they weren't showing up anyway. Okay maybe one guy might try his 'escape and evasion' tactics which will only leave us with stuff we already knew. We do that with paint ball and world class trackers... at night, that's a whole different exercise. In daylight, we'd find him in no time. gee, wonderful... thanks for wasting our time.

Now what do you do if you run out of ammo and are set up on a one on one scenario. Never happens? Interesting, because that's not what we've heard. It doesn't take too much imagination to know your primary weapon can be lost, and that you might need time to gain your secondary. Or that you might get stuck in a dark cave. You don't have a blade but managed to pick up an impact weapon. Perhaps because your hand got shot or injured. "But some guy on the internet told us that this stuff NEVER happens... I mean we trained HARD not to get into this situation. No one EVER isolated certain problems or studied them in this much detail, they said it wasn't necessary. I read it in MARTIALTALK for pete's sake!!!"

Paintball, yes you never run out of ammo there or in real life. :rollseyes:

I was playing once in a nice warehouse where the shooting outside cause us to stop from time to time. Well, I was out of ammo and was headed back for more, and was caught by the other team. I surrendered, to avoid the point blank shot. This guy said he did nto care and shot me. I disarmed and then shot him repeated at point blank range with his own weapon then took his weapon with me, and went after his team. So the skills worked. Oh yeah the judge was so busy rolling on the ground laughing at the guy crying foul on me, that he did not call me out. He just waved me on.

I agree that there will be times when you will need it.

Well, what if you CAN still fight with that impact weapon to gain access to a firearm. Or learned ways to disarm an impact weapon effectively. You drilled to learn corto range well, you learned the other ranges, perhaps you yourself didn't go one on one with someone but you SAW proof of what COULD happen no matter what skill level. You KNOW this can work.

Well then turn the switch on and go brother.

Yes

Excellent points Kyle. As we stated earlier, it just isn't for the participant's benefits, but PRIMARILY for those who observe the DVD that can point out what they lack in their own training, even see something that VALIDATES their training. They will understand that mistakes and missed opportunities do happen, that's what all this is about... getting better.

They are the target audience.

They are the ones who will get the most out of the DVD. They will add to the moves, they will refine or improve the moves. That's for the betterment of the FMA. That's for true evolution of the arts. Those who will look at the fights to boost up their self important ego or their 'style' will do so because they are mainly doing their own 'legend building'. Those who look for 'fight club' footage won't get anything but a thrill. We have more important things to do.

I agree

You can see from the posts that many here think that this event was considered merely a fight club stick event with perhaps a ref, maybe no ref. That it was haphazard or that it was uncontrolled by outside forces. That's how we wanted it to look. Because when there's control or perceived control- people ACT braver or foolish.

I can see your points.

Not once in their negativity did anyone bother to think that several unnamed individuals may have also been in attendance to observe the fights (but no outside lookeeloos), as well as other precautions were setup.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST but the FUTURE"

Not sure of the above. It was ok for some to watch if they were invited? If so, then ok, I can see this. This goes back to the thrill seekers, and wanna be fight clubers. I meet a friend of a friend. Not know how serious this guy was, it was the second time I had meet him and says, hey lets go get into a fight tonight. I did not know if he was serious, joking or a thrill seeker, and looking to just watch one he started. So, I had a training knife on me, (* I forgot to take it from the pocket. *) I pulled it and stabbed him in the gut with it, He freaked, no real reaction, other than to yell and cringe in fear. I said no fights for you, for a long time, and do not get me in any either. He was still checking to see if the blade had cut him, and I showed him it was a trainer. Yes, many woudl say this is reckless, and I could have made a mistake and had a real knife on me. Yet, this stopped the thrill talking and BS of people looking to get into "Some Action" and watch others operate. Been there, not doing it again, unless I have too.

Peace Brother.
:asian:

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Thanks for the comments Rich and Mike.

Btw, as I stated Rich, we told people BEFORE they ever left their house what the purpose of the training was for. So you wouldn't have to make any reservations for hotels etc. if that was a conflict.

Those unseen on the DVD and such may or may not have participated. They just don't want to be on camera for their own personal reasons. Others were there as extra personnel for certain precautions on safety and conduct. Others were invited observers who shall remain nameless, but were not there for the thrill seeking stuff- definitely had their own legitimate purpose.

Yes, people do run out of ammo in paintball but as you stated later... when folks are in paintball mode we're back in armored protective shells. We wouldn't get to the business of focusing on ONE project.

We've done scenarios of action flex versus paintball in the dark. That changes everything as well.

best,
--Rafael--

 

[arnisandyz]

Rafael,
If I had driven all the way gotten a hotel, to have my techniques and skill be used in a DVD for the profit of others, I would have been upset.

Here is the double edged sword. If you tell people you are holding an event to be used on a DVD it totally wipes out the reasoning for not having onlookers, as the audience for DVD viewers would outnumber the audience in attendance. If you don't tell people your likely to get the response that Mr Parsons gave. This of course is dependent on IF the event was held PRIMARILY for a DVD viewing audience as I mentioned in my last post.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

1. So now I and others who wanted answers are being labelle as 'timid'...who's name calling? What if I had contacted the private mail address, got the information and it only solidified my opinion that this was a dangerous, illegal and irresponsible event and called the local/state PD about it to get their perspective...and then told the private email contact that the cops even said it was no good...what then? If there were arrests involved because they broke up this 'Kock fight' type event, would I be 'demonized' as destroying your training practice only to put mine ahead by elimination or would I be viewed as a responsible citizen that was coordinating with my community support network?

Lots of IFs again.
Sorry if calling you 'timid' and hurt your feelings.
When I demonize people I usually go for the jugular and call them timid.

2. Read more carefully, the footage doesn't skew, your editting will skew it...that's just plain science. How can I get the 'evident' conclusions unless I see all the same footage that you did in the editing process?

Well, if you SAW the footage you would actually give many of us here a break and understand that editing long pauses between fights, setting up time and all other very boring nonessential details is a waste of dvd. We have more than material to waste on our dvd...heh.

3. Well then, take your already stated 'proven' observations and set up a helmeted contest that has rules that will simulate that type of reaction and encourage training that will engrain what you think is proper application w/o the further risk of brain damage instead of setting up events that are being marketted as proving it again and again...what is the point if it has already been proven?

Now we're talking. It wasn't proven until we proved it.

4. PLUGGGGGGGG.

Anyone who wanted to buy the DVD made up their minds long ago.

5. It is mysterious because of the intentional withholding of information openly and clearly. Smooth operation or not, it is still illegal IMO. A drug deal that goes down smooth isn't legit either.

Info was available.
People have the wrong opinion all the time.

I don't know too much about drug dealing, we're on the good guys side.

--Rafael--

 

[Bob Hubbard]

We've done scenarios of action flex versus paintball in the dark. That changes everything as well.

Hmm...glow in the dark paintballs, black lights and 'glowing' action flex. Low budget star wars anyone?

(Sorry, needed to add a little lightness to the thread.)

Seriously, sounds like fun.