Full Contact No Armor Event!

[Flatlander]

The real winners were the FMA community.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Quick reply and opinion:

Sounds like the event went off well, and I was glad to hear that there were no injuries.

Now, I will say that I train live with "no rules" all the time. I do this with my training group, I do this in Balintawak, and I also get the chance to do this at FMAC flint. What makes this a positive learning experience is that we aren't competing in as much as we are trying to discover ourselves, and it is all in the spirit of love and respect for ourselves, our training partners, and the arts that we train. It is hard training and realistic training, but although we don't have a glass ceiling as to what we can or cannot do, we end up setting our own parameters so that we do not walk away with an injury, and so we can train another day.

When you are not competing in as much as you are training hard with love and respect, then this kind of "no rules no gear" training can be done without injury.

However, if I am concerned only with beating the guy in front of me, as would be in a competition with "winners" and "losers," without rules or some sort of parameters set, I am going to hurt that guy. I will injure him or kill him, or he will injure or kill me. One of us will not train another day, at least not for awhile.

The only reason I would fight to hurt ir kill someone is if I or my family or the innocents are in danger of being hurt or killed. If someone wants to injure or kill me they will have to deal with my 9mm or my blade before they even get to play sticks with me. Hopefully for both our sakes they will only have to deal with watching the back of my car as I drive away, and the police that will be talking to them afterwards. I would never want to enter a tournement or situation knowing that I would be faced with risking injury or death, which would require me to bring injury or death upon my opponent first. I value my health, and I value whatever is in my bank account too much to really want to put myself in a situation where one of these would be jeaprodized by irresponsable training or lawsuits.

So, as far as this tournament goes, if it was done as I explained above with love and respect for each other and the art, then I can see why this was successful and I can see why this went off without any injuries because this is the way myself and others prefer to train. It sounds like this was the case, which is why I congratulated those involved.

If, however, you mean to tell me that this was a brutal competition with no rules where all were out for blood, yet no injuries occured, then I will guess one of three options. #1. your lying or exagerating, and it wasn't the brutal competition that you illustrate; #2. The competitors were not good fighters or were not fighting hard enough, hence no injuries; or #3. You've traded one reality for another (gear for intent), which will leave a silly, unrealistic display of ego's rather then a realistic stick dueling display. Now, based on the posts here, I am guessing that it's more of what I described and do frequently myself, rather then a brutal, no ruled competition where all competitiors are out for victory and blood. What do you think?

Well, regardless, it will be interesting to see the video clips. Keep us posted...

With respect,

PJMOD

 

[GAB]

Loki,

Did you say after the bout they won't know the alphabet?
I think they did not know it, to start with.

Tgace you are hilarious, I am laughing as I do this...

Cheap attempt at selling DVD's and other nonsense...

Was it with Rattan sticks or foam rubber or copper tubing, emt or ????

Where was the cockfighting and dog fights held, was it before or after the event???

I prefer Bows and arrows at 100 yards rather then full contact rattan sticks.

Ouch...

I have been hit accidently with them and we are talking pain, my son got hit this weekend in the top of the head, we are talking egg size lump...I have to give it to him, did not phase him...

As Datu said, How many???

Regards, Gary

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Okay Gary, I'm your huckleberry...

Loki,

Did you say after the bout they won't know the alphabet?
I think they did not know it, to start with.

How ironic Gary, considering how your own post mutilates the english language. Is this forum now the Martial Arts Grammar forum?

Tgace you are hilarious, I am laughing as I do this...
Cheap attempt at selling DVD's and other nonsense...

Non sequiturs anyone? Gary you'll need to qualify that, because our SAYOC DVDs are VERY successful sans this footage.
Gary, are you trying to slander Sayoc Kali on a public forum?

Was it with Rattan sticks or foam rubber or copper tubing, emt or ????

Is this a sentence? What's a 'COPPER' tube, a Freudian slip?

Where was the cockfighting and dog fights held, was it before or after the event???

Gary, for someone who practices the FILIPINO Martial Arts, you certainly do not respect the people or culture who taught you their art. Even worse if you are Filipino, it displays a huge dose of self hate.

Study the Filipino addage, "Utang na Loob".

Btw, you meant "Where WERE the cockfights and dog fights held."

I prefer Bows and arrows at 100 yards rather then full contact rattan sticks.

Gary, it looks like you prefer 'words' as your best weapon, since you obviously have a problem with 'sticks and stones'. A rattan stick isn't 'full contact', the event was.
If we aren't good with the alphabet, what's your excuse?
Perhaps you will provide footage of your expertise with a bow and arrow. You know, sell some cheap DVDs? You better hurry though, because we have experts in the field of projectile weaponry who might produce a DVD on the use of the bow and arrow.

Some people do and others... troll on those who do.

Ouch...

I have been hit accidently with them and we are talking pain, my son got hit this weekend in the top of the head, we are talking egg size lump...I have to give it to him, did not phase him...

How does someone get hit "IN the TOP of their head"?

As Datu said, How many???
Regards, Gary

Due to the nature of Gary's post, you'll all just have to buy the Sayoc Stick Grappling DVD to get a sampling of the fight / fighters.
Cheap shots do not come without a price.


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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[Sun_Helmet]

Well, regardless, it will be interesting to see the video clips. Keep us posted...

With respect,

PJMOD

Thank you. The footage will be self evident. Perhaps you will be able to share with us some of your footage in the future as well. I would purchase it. I've met a few Balintawak instructors in my time and have referred people seeking out Balintawak to them.

Gumagalang,
--Rafael--

 

[loki09789]

When you are not competing in as much as you are training hard with love and respect, then this kind of "no rules no gear" training can be done without injury.

However, if I am concerned only with beating the guy in front of me, as would be in a competition with "winners" and "losers," without rules or some sort of parameters set, I am going to hurt that guy. I will injure him or kill him, or he will injure or kill me. One of us will not train another day, at least not for awhile.

If you are training 'no rules' from a position of 'love and respect' then you are imposing moral 'rules/goals' other than maintaining a 'no rules' environment. Now you are simply in a 'friendly sparring match' with someone who is going to 'simulate' attacking you in 'street legal' ways and target parts of you that might not be legal in a sanctioned tournament.

Reality training has to be contextual in order to be 'real.' If you are simply training to hit hard and 'fight' but are not learning to apply it in the reality of the world you live in (legal/social/geographical/personal makeup) then you are training for 'fantasy.'

I don't know how much injury reduction can be done based on love and respect when the operative phrases used to communicate this event were 'no rules' and 'full contact/no armor.'

I don't care what state it is or whether you want to contradict the 'no rules' issue by imposing a 'rule' of sticks only (btw a car is an impact weapon AND armor - that is why it was upgraded to TANK by improving the armor and adding a gun for further range) if you are going to have a no rules fight/competition then 'full contact' head strikes are going to be allowed and that is considered intentional deadly force - put it in a nice dress and make it look sexy but it is still illegal.

 

[loki09789]

There was a question about military, LEO and other types of individuals. Well, we train all these types of individuals so we have to be able to tell them with a clear conscience that what we teach DOES work and they can then access whether it is something they will include in their arsenal. It also SHOWS what they can watch out for in terms of surviving a specific technique or tactic. It was for OUR benefit that we did this for OURSELVES. That is how we learn how to evolve SAYOC KALI. No one who entered the event was there primarily for personal glory, but a greater purpose... documentation.

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Well ASSESSMENT (not access for one who wants to criticize grammar) by LEO/Miltary types means that they are taking your realistically functional training finding it useful within their contextual usage.

There is a big difference between training hard and training realistically.

I have seen and have HUGE respect of the SAYOC system. It is similar to the Balitawak/FMA/Kenpo stuff that I know and love and is real world focused. I don't agree with these 'fight club' events that say that they are no rules/full contact with real rattan sticks (only btw it is a stick fight even if it is no rules ), because they are not accomplishing the objective of 'real world' application so much as 'real fight' application. In this day and age of civil cases, legal use of force and such do you really think that this type of thing should be the core of martial arts/self defense training? How do you address the issue of legal use of force in SAYOC? If you address that, how can you justify promoting an event that condones/promotes lethal force use outside of justified/legal context?

 

[Sun_Helmet]

ALL Training IS fantasy.
Why? Because it is NEVER Real.

There's no reality based training that in my eyes equal REALITY. Therefore, any time we have something organized or something everyone agrees to do (like show up to class, warm up, have an instructor present, no alcohol, no external danger) then it is NOT Reality.

However, within the context of this, one can get as close as possible to seeking out tactics that work with an uncooperative person. You can see real time reactions and responses and EVOLVE methods from this. The footage can be studied and allay certain concerns or induce new ones. For example, the mere removal of padded gloves altered the whole dynamics of the fights.

Btw, no one from Sayoc Kali stated this event was anything, but TRAINING. It's just training some do not care to venture into, which we don't lay judgement on.

In Sayoc Kali we say that the methods evolved from the blood and sweat of those before us, perhaps so others won't have to. In addition, it is to make sure when we say something like, "Training the non dominant hand is crucial to your survival" we have evidence that support it.

From there we can take it and apply this method to REAL world scenarios.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[loki09789]

ALL Training IS fantasy.
Why? Because it is NEVER Real.

However, within the context of this, one can get as close as possible to seeking out tactics that work with an uncooperative person. You can see real time reactions and responses and EVOLVE methods from this. The footage can be studied and allay certain concerns or induce new ones. For example, the mere removal of padded gloves altered the whole dynamics of the fights.

Btw, no one from Sayoc Kali stated this event was anything, but TRAINING. It's just training some do not care to venture into, which we don't lay judgement on.

From there we can take it and apply this method to REAL world scenarios.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

But, since it is a vacuum exercise it encourages and evolves tactics that are not going to address anything other than a single attacker with a stick outside the tactical considerations of escape routes, terrain, light conditions, legal context, environmental weapons, duty to retreat...and the list goes on. The stretch to 'real world scenarios' is much farther than if you put the hard impact (but for the sake of training safety regulated to a degree) responses INTO the contextual scenario to see how it works early on or even right away. In educational circles this is basically known as thematic training. You can create 'themes/scenarios' that validate your art by demonstrating quite clearly how it will or won't work in context.

Besides wouldn't this type of event/practice be considered the promotion of violence/unjustified lethal force use instead of an artistic way to respond to it responsibly?

Look, I recognize that this is essentially a 'gut check' session. Big fan of 'gut check' training. It does make you aware of how you honestly react under stress and fear/danger. I just don't see how this type of event is within the objectives/mission of a self defense focused training package. There are other ways that the same types of results and outcomes could be created without the contradiction of legallity/morallity practice vs. mission.

Again, simply asked questions: How many participants? Was the event Insured? You mentioned concerns were addressed, HOW specifically?

If this is more than just a 'legend building' promotional activity, then those details will help to bring more people to Sayoc events and further spread the benefits of the training.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Well ASSESSMENT (not access for one who wants to criticize grammar) by LEO/Miltary types means that they are taking your realistically functional training finding it useful within their contextual usage.

That misspelling was BEFORE I realized the goofy grammar factor here.
You do know that the point of my post was that strict grammar shouldn't be a prequisite in this forum, didn't you Paul?

Your usage of 'realistically functional training' ain't reely Shakenspear ya know. Btw, if you haven't edited your spelling yet - it's 'milItary'.
Let's move on, shall we?

There is a big difference between training hard and training realistically.

I have seen and have HUGE respect of the SAYOC system. It is similar to the Balitawak/FMA/Kenpo stuff that I know and love and is real world focused. I don't agree with these 'fight club' events that say that they are no rules/full contact with real rattan sticks (only btw it is a stick fight even if it is no rules ), because they are not accomplishing the objective of 'real world' application so much as 'real fight' application. In this day and age of civil cases, legal use of force and such do you really think that this type of thing should be the core of martial arts/self defense training? How do you address the issue of legal use of force in SAYOC? If you address that, how can you justify promoting an event that condones/promotes lethal force use outside of justified/legal context?

Guess WHY you have HUGE respect for Sayoc and your own FMA instructors? Because they teach what they KNOW to be TRUE.

It's in the context of TRAINING. In any TRAINING, one can be susceptible to serious bodily injury. Especially REAL world simulated training. This wasn't a contest... no prize money, no audience.

Btw, who said this was for 'martial arts/self defense' training? Our students go beyond those descriptions. Some have to face people coming at them with bludgeoning weapons. Well, we can SHOW them the possibilities to look for to counter that.They don't have to engage in a stick fight, but they will know from the footage where to move for future reference. They will know where to keep their weapons in check. They will know where the targets are most likely to be. There's tons of info that can be culled from the footage.

How can one justify teaching a method if they don't know for sure the possible glitches inherent therein if they haven't even seen it happen in real time? Not even seeing it in TRAINING time?

--Rafael--
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[loki09789]

It's in the context of TRAINING. In any TRAINING, one can be susceptible to serious bodily injury. Especially REAL world simulated training. This wasn't a contest... no prize money, no audience.

Btw, who said this was for 'martial arts/self defense' training? Our students go beyond those descriptions. Some have to face people coming at them with bludgeoning weapons. --Rafael--
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Training should be a context that prepares people for the reality of application so if you are training people for a training context, then you are more interested in self perpetuation than application.

I think you can 'discover if it works/you can make it work' in a variety of ways that do not require using unjustified lethal force - btw, Janulis' observations about the possibilities of what really happened vs what was promoted in relation to 'no injuries' is a good one to chew on.

I think the second statement says it all for me, along with the clear side step of my questions.

I am done with this.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

But, since it is a vacuum exercise it encourages and evolves tactics that are not going to address anything other than a single attacker with a stick outside the tactical considerations of escape routes, terrain, light conditions, legal context, environmental weapons, duty to retreat...and the list goes on.

And within those restrictions is a HUGE amount of practical data which are addressed, tested and studied. Just look at the list I made earlier. MANY of those things APPLY to real world scenarios.

We have numerous other training scenarios and methods to address these other factors you mention. We delve into them and isolate them just like this stick event did.

For example, how do you pick up a lost weapon? Well, here's several instances someone might go for their bludgeoning weapon.

One can NOT train reality in SINGLE scenario, in a SINGLE instance, in a SINGLE drill.
One can state a TON of excuses NOT to do this, no one is saying YOU have to do it.

The stretch to 'real world scenarios' is much farther than if you put the hard impact (but for the sake of training safety regulated to a degree) responses INTO the contextual scenario to see how it works early on or even right away. In educational circles this is basically known as thematic training. You can create 'themes/scenarios' that validate your art by demonstrating quite clearly how it will or won't work in context.

Based on what data? Is it data you witnessed or were told would work? Someone sought and earned that data.

Besides wouldn't this type of event/practice be considered the promotion of violence/unjustified lethal force use instead of an artistic way to respond to it responsibly?

Is that how you look at it? Be honest with yourself. Having no prior Sayoc Kali training, you are pretty much stating what OUR purpose and methods are through your own eyes.

Look, I recognize that this is essentially a 'gut check' session. Big fan of 'gut check' training. It does make you aware of how you honestly react under stress and fear/danger. I just don't see how this type of event is within the objectives/mission of a self defense focused training package. There are other ways that the same types of results and outcomes could be created without the contradiction of legallity/morallity practice vs. mission.

There's no one stating that YOUR methods are wrong, or even disagree with ours in many ways. Btw, Sayoc Kali is not merely a 'self defense' focused training. We teach many other individuals who may have different concerns beyond that. We've heard from their first hand accounts that OUR methods work. We'll go by the results our students have shown. You can approach them with yours and they can make an educated judgement from there.

Again, simply asked questions: How many participants? Was the event Insured? You mentioned concerns were addressed, HOW specifically?

Now you want to know HOW, why do you want to know if it isn't something you care to endorse? Like I stated earlier, we do things based on things we know to be true.. we've researched it. You're asking the same questions a student would ask when they say "HOW specifically do you retrieve a lost weapon?"... well this is HOW.... we earned it.

The way the internet is structured, there really is no way you can accept my answers to be true unless you were there, correct? For example, the numbers of participants... what makes you think people will accept numbers I type here? Isn't it better to just view a sampling of numerous fights and see for yourself? It was more than one.

If this is more than just a 'legend building' promotional activity, then those details will help to bring more people to Sayoc events and further spread the benefits of the training.

I don't think Sayoc Kali needs any 'legend building'. Everyone in FMA who has been around awhile know who we are. First off, the world is much larger than this small subculture we run in called FMA. Within the FMA, Sayoc Kali really has nothing to build when those in the know already respect our abilities. It is about EVOLVING our teaching methods and doing that based on similar REAL world tests.

What's interesting is that depending on who is posting on these forums, opinions contrast one another all the time. In other forums, they will say this is tame stuff, that they did this years ago; in others they will say the blade material is too much like a drill, etc. etc. Now it is too real or not real enough.

Just look at the footage and consider it a segment of training that not many do anymore. Simple as that. If you don't think there's no practical purpose - fine, we get it. We disagree.

It's wonderful to have a differing opinion. In the meantime, we can only be responsible for our student's progress and their REAl world results.

In Sayoc Kali, our students have done well on both accounts. Below are what they say about it. I think they know a little bit about the real world.

--Rafael--

Not only is Tuhon Chris the real deal but his teaching skills are of the highest order. I am happy that I have the opportunity to begin as a student of Sayoc Kali.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Guiding Force of the Dog Brothers
Guro Crafty
Dog Brothers Martial Arts

"I've trained with many experts over my 24 years as a Navy SEAL and the information I've found to be the most efficient and well-rounded is the Sayoc Kali knife fighting techniques. You will acquire an exceptional proficiency with a knife beyond anything you thought possible."

Michael Jaco
Originator / Head Instructor for the Navy SEALs Combat Fighting Course

"Sayoc Kali is phenomenal!
Edge Weapons just scratch the surface of the techniques, teaching methodology and combat mindset of the Sayoc group. If you are looking for teachers who seriously research and address all areas of personal combat for the modern warrior; you owe it to yourself to seek out these gentlemen."

Mike Mello
20 plus year police officer. International military and law enforcement trainer for Heckler & Koch and Armor Holdings Inc.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Training should be a context that prepares people for the reality of application so if you are training people for a training context, then you are more interested in self perpetuation than application.

You forget that this training event involved the ability to ***SUBMIT*** your opponent. That someone can decide to QUIT and the fighting is over.

You appear to have taken the whole event in your mind and projected your own ***LETHAL*** connotations disregarding the whole premise of the TRAINING.

I think you can 'discover if it works/you can make it work' in a variety of ways that do not require using unjustified lethal force - btw, Janulis' observations about the possibilities of what really happened vs what was promoted in relation to 'no injuries' is a good one to chew on.

Yes, let's chew. You haven't SEEN any footage but you know for a fact that no one was injured. I think no one was permanently injured, but there were injuries.
See above. It isn't fighting WITHOUT the ability to stop on your own, the interjection of a medical person or other observers. I don't know what you meant by promotion, unless it was your obvious mis- interpretation of what was promoted. It was promoted that SUBMISSION was allowed. That takes care of a HUGE gap between lethal force and training.

I think the second statement says it all for me, along with the clear side step of my questions.
I am done with this.

Not exactly sure what you're trying to imply.
As you can plainly see, I was still trying to type my reply to your OTHER post when you mentioned I 'CLEARLY' sidestepped your questions.

--Rafael--

 

[GAB]

Hi Rafael,

OK we understand each other, I believe it was an irresponsible event.

My grammer and typos and misspelled words aside, it is still not responsible.

I have built, have owned bows, for a very long time.

Same with the other weapons of the FMA.

The more credentials, the more irresponsible it is.

Unless of course you are like the military and will take care of your injured with a medical plan.

Regards, Gary

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Hi Rafael,

OK we understand each other, I believe it was an irresponsible event.

And no one is saying I have to agree with you.

My grammer and typos and misspelled words aside, it is still not responsible.

Yes, I agree it wasn't very responsible for you to choose to cheap shot my grammar and those who participated just because it wasn't your cup of tea.

I have built, have owned bows, for a very long time.

Great, good for you.

Same with the other weapons of the FMA.

Too bad you diss the whole Filipino culture with your careless comments about cockfighting and dog fighting.

The more credentials, the more irresponsible it is.

Look in the mirror. See above.

Unless of course you are like the military and will take care of your injured with a medical plan.

Regards, Gary

Likewise.

--Rafael--
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[bart]

Hey Guys,

I hate to wear the "MOD" hat, but please let's keep this civil. Sarcasm is one thing. Bitterness and cheap shots are another. Please guys, take the personal references to private messages, phone calls, email, etcetera. The forum is for the points of your opinions that are rooted in the art and the events, not in your personality.

 

[GAB]

Bart, OK...

Rafael,

Actually with that remark about the cockfighting etc. It came from someone else to me, then I relayed it.

I have been asked if I have done those very things because of my tie with FMA. Seems like it is something that happens on the Islands quite a bit, along with full contact. (and some head hunting, but we do that here also):ultracool

It was a little bit Sarcastic, but the whole thing was like WTF... Must be kidding.

Unfortunatly, I guess we were both not taking the topic the right way...

Tulisan seems to have handled it the best.

I will post less and read more...

Regards, Gary
ps: I will read the site and get back to you, should have done that in the first place....

 

[Flatlander]

I'm having difficulty really understanding why this is such a big issue.

1) Where do we think these arts evolved from?
2) This event was volunteer by the participants, not mandatory.
3) Where do we think these arts evolved from?

Really, what's the problem here? I don't get it. As I said upthread, I personally am not prepared to experience this level of training yet, but I am certain that one day I will be. I'm sure that there are folks out there who can benefit from this, so why should they not? Why would anyone ever choose to put a limit on their training, if they take it that seriously?

Why should I care what my neighbors eat for supper? I prepare my own supper. That's good enough for me - let them choose what to eat.

 

[GAB]

Hi Flatlander,

Yes, but the impact on someone who is going out there and then getting hurt,
impaired for life maybe, Young and dumb comes to mind. Victim is another word.

Lets bring in some outsiders and bust um up is another way to look at it.

But, you are very correct...

Like I said, should have read more and posted less...

Regards, Gary

 

[loki09789]

I'm having difficulty really understanding why this is such a big issue.

1) Where do we think these arts evolved from?
2) This event was volunteer by the participants, not mandatory.
3) Where do we think these arts evolved from?

Really, what's the problem here? I don't get it. As I said upthread, I personally am not prepared to experience this level of training yet, but I am certain that one day I will be. I'm sure that there are folks out there who can benefit from this, so why should they not? Why would anyone ever choose to put a limit on their training, if they take it that seriously?

Why should I care what my neighbors eat for supper? I prepare my own supper. That's good enough for me - let them choose what to eat.

Here is my problem with it:

1. The arts evolved from necessity. In the current day (at least in first world nations like US/Canada and the like) the 'way it use to be done' is not acceptable because - for good or bad - there seems to be more support networks to create civil peace than were there before. Events like this are flat out ILLEGAL because of the 'full contact' and the 'no rules' issues around an event that is using lethal force (stick in this case). If people voluntarily submit or not, it is illegal. It is just as illegal to voluntarily buy drugs...so the voluntary involvement logic doesn't work for me. IF you are intending to hit someone with a blunt trauma weapon 'full contact' in order to get them to 'knock out or submit' then you are in simple terms using lethal force/deadly force to exert your will on someone - that is not training that is a life and death fight!

2. We use to have slavery around the time frame of the Civil war in the US, so that 'tradition' logic isn't going to hold up there either for me because we don't view Afro Americans/Blacks that way (or at least don't condone it legally) anymore.

3. Tradition is the weakest of all rationales IMO for the use of lethal force.

4. Events like this do not demonstrate a respect for the current culture, recognition for the context or the a responsible use of martial arts IMO.

I would be interested in knowing what kind of credo or code of ethics are implied or expected of the members of this training group/system and how it can be justified/aligned to that philosophical stance. THEN, I would like to see how this can be defended as legal at all.

Wait...edit time. I found this from the Sayoc.com website in the disclaimer section.

Sayoc Kali(sm) strongly advises that all persons stay informed about the laws that apply to defense of self and others within their jurisdictions and their respective professions.

Considering that Tgace, as an LEO, and the NYS Trooper that works in the building are looking at the event details and saying that this sounds like lethal force (and is unjustified use therefore illegal/undefendable in court), I would question how much concern over self defense legallity there is here.

Still no answer on insurance and other questions.