From Okinawa to Korea

[WaterGal]

Yes sir! That would have been my supposition too. I often thought, "Why are they letting these kids develop wrong muscle memory?" But then, as I said, some magic occurs, and suddenly the techniques look good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm as surprised as anyone that the "Don't correct them much, but make them repeat the technique even if incorrectly a lot" teaching technique somehow seems to yield good results. To your point, I still find it mystifying that this actually works.

If you think about it, don't we learn a lot of stuff in life that way? Messing up over and over again until we work out how to get it right?

I think that there's a balance to be found - give some correction, but not too much. If a student is constantly getting corrected, they may feel like "I can't get this right, I'm never going to get this". So a little bit of correction here and there, praise what they do they correctly to reinforce that & keep them motivated ("good job pivoting your foot!", "good kihap!", etc), and let them keep trying.

 

[WaterGal]

I wanted to revisit this. After our tournament this weekend and watching the black belts, I think this is absolutely the crux of the difference. In my karate school, 1st Dan meant you were high enough to teach and open a school (which I did briefly). It seems that my old style 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to KKW 3rd Dan. Seeing it that way makes everything fall into place better. Rather than comparing kyu - gup and Dan to Dan, when I adjust for this difference in what the belts mean everything fits. I guess I never realized that 1st Dan had different meanings in different styles.

I think most people don't know that. I've been told that in Korea, it's not uncommon to get your black belt in one year. So that's a very different view of black belt from what we tend to have in the US based on pop culture. At the other extreme is BJJ, where a black belt is so high-level that a lot of school owners don't even have one.

 

[_Simon_]

I wanted to revisit this. After our tournament this weekend and watching the black belts, I think this is absolutely the crux of the difference. In my karate school, 1st Dan meant you were high enough to teach and open a school (which I did briefly). It seems that my old style 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to KKW 3rd Dan. Seeing it that way makes everything fall into place better. Rather than comparing kyu - gup and Dan to Dan, when I adjust for this difference in what the belts mean everything fits. I guess I never realized that 1st Dan had different meanings in different styles.

I’ve also come to grips with the idea that this school is focused solely on taekwondo, which is primarily kicking. If I want other aspects of Martial Arts I’ll have to cross train.

I want to thank you and everyone who commented before. I feel 100% better about things and excited about studying taekwondo again.

Yeah that's a great observation Michele. A 1st Dan definitely means something and represents something different in different styles. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Absolutely not. Of course they all represent some degree of mastery or skill of the specific art, but to what degree seems different from style to style.

For example, in my previous style of Kyokushin karate, I witnessed multiple black belt gradings. They were.... hmm I can't even find the right word. Brutal is one word, epic, insane, probably the most challenging thing I've ever seen people do in person. They were so very intense. Not only technically did the candidates have to be at a great level, but in terms of endurance/stamina, and fighting spirit it's truly out of this world. Not only after hours and hours of almost nonstop basics, self-defense, combination patterns, kata, calisthenics and exercises, but 40 rounds of intense full contact kumite after that. Because that's what the style emphasises and what its all about, of course getting to a pinnacle of that is going to be difficult!

Reaching a 1st Dan in Kyokushin is massive, and compared to some other black belt gradings, they are miles different.

And it's important (and what I'm coming to realise more) to see that this isn't a bad thing, as every style is just different, and black belt represents a different level RELATIVE to the specific art. So to me this brings a sort of comfort, as it's specific to the art, and too many dismiss other gradings as being too easy, but it's moreso what it means to the art itself.

If you think about it, don't we learn a lot of stuff in life that way? Messing up over and over again until we work out how to get it right?

I think that there's a balance to be found - give some correction, but not too much. If a student is constantly getting corrected, they may feel like "I can't get this right, I'm never going to get this". So a little bit of correction here and there, praise what they do they correctly to reinforce that & keep them motivated ("good job pivoting your foot!", "good kihap!", etc), and let them keep trying.

Very well said! I always try to praise as well, but I'll remember that with our kid's classes to not constantly correct the same things too much

 

[andyjeffries]

In my karate school, 1st Dan meant you were high enough to teach and open a school (which I did briefly). It seems that my old style 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to KKW 3rd Dan.

This definitely depends on the school, their background and the country. In the UK, you can open your own school at 1st Dan in Taekwondo, which generally takes 3-5 years of practice). You can't promote people, but you can have your own students and teach. At 4th Dan you can promote people.

In Korea, it takes 1 year to get from know-nothing to 1st Poom/Dan. However, you can't open a school until 4th Dan.

So it depends on your club/association's view of a 1st Dan - is it instructor level, or more in-line with the Korean viewpoint that it's a competent-beginner rank.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If you think about it, don't we learn a lot of stuff in life that way? Messing up over and over again until we work out how to get it right?
.

Old saying "The amount of expertise you have is directly proportional to the amount of things you have messed up."

 

[Michele123]

It’s been awhile so I wanted to check in. I finished teaching for spring semester and have summer off so I’ve been getting TM train twice a week. I love getting to go in more than once a week.

I’ll be testing for my next rank in a few weeks (6th gup or blue belt here). I’ll just be doing a single test this time. I’m pretty sure I have everything close to nailed down.

The only things I’m a bit concerned about are my break (spinning back kick) and I have to complete 21 movement in 12 seconds or less. My best time so far is 13 1/2 seconds if I have a good holder. I can do it pretty fast on my own at home, but it gets slower when I have someone holding for me.

The break is a slight concern for me because the kick is so different from anything I did before. I’ve been having trouble remembering to dip my shoulder really low to get the proper angle on my foot on contact.

Theoretically, 3 weeks would be plenty of time to work these things out. However, we are going across the country to visit family in a week. Or flight arrives back here the day of the test (vacation was planned before I knew testing dates). So, I have two classes left before two weeks off and straight into a test. I’m not sure we will be able to even make it to the test that day (my daughter should be testing for another white belt stripe that day also). I’d like to, but we will be getting up at 3am to begin our long day of travel back. Even if we got home and changed in time for the test, I’m not sure we will be in any condition to actually test. My instructor said we can test the next class after the official test so we will see. Part of me is attracted at the thought of such a challenge. The other part of me thinks it’s crazy, exhausting, and a situation ripe for injury. We will see which part of me wins out.

On another note, my son (second child) has recently started Taekwondo. He loves it already. When he was asked to do a roundhouse kick for the first time, he did it without any instruction. Our instructor said it shows that he’s been coming and watching big sister for so many months. He’s never had a kid be able to do a roundhouse kick with no instruction before. My son is a natural at sports in general so I’m sure that coordination helps. Hopefully his age keeps h from progressing too fast for now. I know my daughter would be devastated if he surpasses her quickly. She’s struggled with motor delays in the past and I don’t want her to give up when she realizes little brother has more aptitude than she does. She’s worked hard and done well despite her difficulties. I’ve actually been really impressed in watching her progress.

It’s funny, before I had kids I was never a big proponent of kids in martial arts. But it has been wonderful for my daughter and she actually has learned a lot. I like also, that the young kids have stripes to earn between the full colored belts because it helps them to master smaller chunks of the material at a time but still have the encouragement that they are making progress. It also doesn’t water down the ranks because they actually have to be able to do the material well (physical limitations considered) to earn their belts.

Enough of my ramblings. Just thought I’d through an update out. Hopefully by the end of June I’ll be posting an update that my daughter and I both pass our tests.


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[_Simon_]

It’s been awhile so I wanted to check in. I finished teaching for spring semester and have summer off so I’ve been getting TM train twice a week. I love getting to go in more than once a week.

I’ll be testing for my next rank in a few weeks (6th gup or blue belt here). I’ll just be doing a single test this time. I’m pretty sure I have everything close to nailed down.

The only things I’m a bit concerned about are my break (spinning back kick) and I have to complete 21 movement in 12 seconds or less. My best time so far is 13 1/2 seconds if I have a good holder. I can do it pretty fast on my own at home, but it gets slower when I have someone holding for me.

The break is a slight concern for me because the kick is so different from anything I did before. I’ve been having trouble remembering to dip my shoulder really low to get the proper angle on my foot on contact.

Theoretically, 3 weeks would be plenty of time to work these things out. However, we are going across the country to visit family in a week. Or flight arrives back here the day of the test (vacation was planned before I knew testing dates). So, I have two classes left before two weeks off and straight into a test. I’m not sure we will be able to even make it to the test that day (my daughter should be testing for another white belt stripe that day also). I’d like to, but we will be getting up at 3am to begin our long day of travel back. Even if we got home and changed in time for the test, I’m not sure we will be in any condition to actually test. My instructor said we can test the next class after the official test so we will see. Part of me is attracted at the thought of such a challenge. The other part of me thinks it’s crazy, exhausting, and a situation ripe for injury. We will see which part of me wins out.

On another note, my son (second child) has recently started Taekwondo. He loves it already. When he was asked to do a roundhouse kick for the first time, he did it without any instruction. Our instructor said it shows that he’s been coming and watching big sister for so many months. He’s never had a kid be able to do a roundhouse kick with no instruction before. My son is a natural at sports in general so I’m sure that coordination helps. Hopefully his age keeps h from progressing too fast for now. I know my daughter would be devastated if he surpasses her quickly. She’s struggled with motor delays in the past and I don’t want her to give up when she realizes little brother has more aptitude than she does. She’s worked hard and done well despite her difficulties. I’ve actually been really impressed in watching her progress.

It’s funny, before I had kids I was never a big proponent of kids in martial arts. But it has been wonderful for my daughter and she actually has learned a lot. I like also, that the young kids have stripes to earn between the full colored belts because it helps them to master smaller chunks of the material at a time but still have the encouragement that they are making progress. It also doesn’t water down the ranks because they actually have to be able to do the material well (physical limitations considered) to earn their belts.

Enough of my ramblings. Just thought I’d through an update out. Hopefully by the end of June I’ll be posting an update that my daughter and I both pass our tests.


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Ah nice, yeah spinning back kicks can be hard to get accurate with, but I reckon do as much drilling of it as you can, even on a bag and markout on the bag or pick a spot where you want to land it, going through really slowly with proper technique, and picking up the speed bit by bit when you're ready.

Ah wow I'm intrigued, what is the 21 movement thing? It's not 21 breaks in 12 seconds or less?? Yikes hehe.

And yeah that could be a fun challenge hehe! But yeah might be hard to perform how you'd like on the day with such little rest, up to you ay.. but do let us know how ya go, very exciting

That's great to hear about your little one loving training too . I rather enjoyed when my whole family and I were all training in karate

 

[JR 137]

It’s been awhile so I wanted to check in. I finished teaching for spring semester and have summer off so I’ve been getting TM train twice a week. I love getting to go in more than once a week.

I’ll be testing for my next rank in a few weeks (6th gup or blue belt here). I’ll just be doing a single test this time. I’m pretty sure I have everything close to nailed down.

The only things I’m a bit concerned about are my break (spinning back kick) and I have to complete 21 movement in 12 seconds or less. My best time so far is 13 1/2 seconds if I have a good holder. I can do it pretty fast on my own at home, but it gets slower when I have someone holding for me.

The break is a slight concern for me because the kick is so different from anything I did before. I’ve been having trouble remembering to dip my shoulder really low to get the proper angle on my foot on contact.

Theoretically, 3 weeks would be plenty of time to work these things out. However, we are going across the country to visit family in a week. Or flight arrives back here the day of the test (vacation was planned before I knew testing dates). So, I have two classes left before two weeks off and straight into a test. I’m not sure we will be able to even make it to the test that day (my daughter should be testing for another white belt stripe that day also). I’d like to, but we will be getting up at 3am to begin our long day of travel back. Even if we got home and changed in time for the test, I’m not sure we will be in any condition to actually test. My instructor said we can test the next class after the official test so we will see. Part of me is attracted at the thought of such a challenge. The other part of me thinks it’s crazy, exhausting, and a situation ripe for injury. We will see which part of me wins out.

On another note, my son (second child) has recently started Taekwondo. He loves it already. When he was asked to do a roundhouse kick for the first time, he did it without any instruction. Our instructor said it shows that he’s been coming and watching big sister for so many months. He’s never had a kid be able to do a roundhouse kick with no instruction before. My son is a natural at sports in general so I’m sure that coordination helps. Hopefully his age keeps h from progressing too fast for now. I know my daughter would be devastated if he surpasses her quickly. She’s struggled with motor delays in the past and I don’t want her to give up when she realizes little brother has more aptitude than she does. She’s worked hard and done well despite her difficulties. I’ve actually been really impressed in watching her progress.

It’s funny, before I had kids I was never a big proponent of kids in martial arts. But it has been wonderful for my daughter and she actually has learned a lot. I like also, that the young kids have stripes to earn between the full colored belts because it helps them to master smaller chunks of the material at a time but still have the encouragement that they are making progress. It also doesn’t water down the ranks because they actually have to be able to do the material well (physical limitations considered) to earn their belts.

Enough of my ramblings. Just thought I’d through an update out. Hopefully by the end of June I’ll be posting an update that my daughter and I both pass our tests.


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I think the people who don’t like children being in the MA fall into 2 categories (or both) - they don’t have kids, or they think MA for kids is about building a fighting machine. MA for kids should really be about two things - getting kids to love training, and teaching them a solid foundation for when they’re physically and mentally ready to train as an adult. None of that means give (or sell ) them high ranks like black belts and turn the place into a glorified daycare facility though.

I really miss watching my daughter train and practicing with her at home. She trained from age 5-6. She got bored, kind of like a been there done that thing. She’s 7 now. Hopefully she’ll get the interest back. My other daughter just turned 5. If her big sister’s not doing it, she’s not going to either.

 

[Michele123]

Ah nice, yeah spinning back kicks can be hard to get accurate with, but I reckon do as much drilling of it as you can, even on a bag and markout on the bag or pick a spot where you want to land it, going through really slowly with proper technique, and picking up the speed bit by bit when you're ready.

Yeah. That’s what I’ve been trying to do. It so different because when I was in karate, a spinning back kick kicked like, well, a back kick. In Taekwondo the kick is more of a swinging arch rather than kicking straight back. And the foot position is somewhere between a back kick and a side kick but contact is still made with the heel. Just so different than what I’m familiar with in karate.

Ah wow I'm intrigued, what is the 21 movement thing? It's not 21 breaks in 12 seconds or less?? Yikes hehe.

Haha nope! It’s a series of 21 techniques strung together, much like a kata, but linear and with someone holding targets and doing the opponents piece (I.e. kicking you if you have a block for a kick there). You can check YouTube for Taekwondo 21 movement to see what it is about. Most seem to be the same.


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[Michele123]

I think the people who don’t like children being in the MA fall into 2 categories (or both) - they don’t have kids, or they think MA for kids is about building a fighting machine. MA for kids should really be about two things - getting kids to love training, and teaching them a solid foundation for when they’re physically and mentally ready to train as an adult. None of that means give (or sell ) them high ranks like black belts and turn the place into a glorified daycare facility though.

I really miss watching my daughter train and practicing with her at home. She trained from age 5-6. She got bored, kind of like a been there done that thing. She’s 7 now. Hopefully she’ll get the interest back. My other daughter just turned 5. If her big sister’s not doing it, she’s not going to either.

That makes sense. There is a McDojo nearby that does just sell the belts (though they swear to you that they don’t, I could go on a long rant about them but I won’t). In our school, the kids have to earn it (from what I can see). They don’t automatically pass when they test.

I hope my daughter and son keep with Taekwondo for now. My youngest isn’t old enough yet for class but desperately wants to join. She still has 2 1/2 years before she is old enough. For now she just copies what she sees.

I hope your daughter becomes interested again.


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[JR 137]

That makes sense. There is a McDojo nearby that does just sell the belts (though they swear to you that they don’t, I could go on a long rant about them but I won’t). In our school, the kids have to earn it (from what I can see). They don’t automatically pass when they test.

I hope my daughter and son keep with Taekwondo for now. My youngest isn’t old enough yet for class but desperately wants to join. She still has 2 1/2 years before she is old enough. For now she just copies what she sees.

I hope your daughter becomes interested again.


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There’s a McDojo 3 blocks from the (academic) school I teach at. They claim it takes an average of 5-7 years for kids to get a black belt. I’ve had at least a dozen students over the years who “earned” one there, between 4-8 grade. I have yet to meet one who took longer than 2 years. Most are 18 months. And trust me, they’re not gifted athletes nor are they going to multiple classes every single day. In contrast, the school I attend has a minimum 1 year wait between 1st kyu and 1st dan test. Most often it’s about 18 months due to my teacher being conservative and the timing of the test itself. So a lot of people at my dojo spend more time as a brown belt than they do from white to black. Gotta love the McDojo madness.

 

[Michele123]

There’s a McDojo 3 blocks from the (academic) school I teach at. They claim it takes an average of 5-7 years for kids to get a black belt. I’ve had at least a dozen students over the years who “earned” one there, between 4-8 grade. I have yet to meet one who took longer than 2 years. Most are 18 months. And trust me, they’re not gifted athletes nor are they going to multiple classes every single day. In contrast, the school I attend has a minimum 1 year wait between 1st kyu and 1st dan test. Most often it’s about 18 months due to my teacher being conservative and the timing of the test itself. So a lot of people at my dojo spend more time as a brown belt than they do from white to black. Gotta love the McDojo madness.

That sounds similar. The one here charges a semester of college for one “program” (half the ranks to black belt) which is supposed to last 18-24 months but for some reason each child they get had an uncanny gift for martial arts and gets through the program in a year or less. They swear up and down that their pricing mode gives them no incentive to promote kids that aren’t ready. When I questioned one parent to get her to think about it, she realized this is exactly the pricing method that encourages quick and unearned promotions.


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[JR 137]

That sounds similar. The one here charges a semester of college for one “program” (half the ranks to black belt) which is supposed to last 18-24 months but for some reason each child they get had an uncanny gift for martial arts and gets through the program in a year or less. They swear up and down that their pricing mode gives them no incentive to promote kids that aren’t ready. When I questioned one parent to get her to think about it, she realized this is exactly the pricing method that encourages quick and unearned promotions.


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Yup. The place I’m talking about has a “black belt plan.” You pay one price, either up front or financed, and you train until you pass your 1st dan test. It’s a good financial deal if you take 5-7 years to get there. But if you leave, no refunds; you can come back and pick up where you left off. So people do the math and think cost divided by 6 years works out to be around $90/month, which is cheaper than the average monthly tuition at other local commercial schools.

But when you do cost divided by the real norm of 2 years, and yeah, it’s obvious it’s not a great deal at all. And you get a new and more expensive contract until 2nd dan.

So the quicker you get that black belt, the quicker they can get you for another $7k contract. Remember, the contract is a flat fee regardless of how long it takes or how quickly you get there. You’re paying to train until a rank; you’re not paying for how long it takes to get said rank.

 

[Michele123]

What do you all think about visiting another school while on vacation?

The one I’m thinking about is advertised as Taekwondo (not part of our small association) but I’m not sure if it is Kukkiwon or not. I like the idea of getting a workout or two in over vacation that isn’t just me practicing on my own. I also like the idea of meeting new people and seeing how things are done differently.

I’m not sure if it’ll work out for me to go because leaving my husband with three small kids at bedtime in a tiny hotel room might be too torturous for him.

However, if I do go, what are the do’s and don’t’s of visiting another school?

TIA for any advice.


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[mrt2]

What do you all think about visiting another school while on vacation?

The one I’m thinking about is advertised as Taekwondo (not part of our small association) but I’m not sure if it is Kukkiwon or not. I like the idea of getting a workout or two in over vacation that isn’t just me practicing on my own. I also like the idea of meeting new people and seeing how things are done differently.

I’m not sure if it’ll work out for me to go because leaving my husband with three small kids at bedtime in a tiny hotel room might be too torturous for him.

However, if I do go, what are the do’s and don’t’s of visiting another school?

TIA for any advice.


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Contact the head instructor ahead of time to see if it is OK, and don't assume the class will be free. Honestly though, unless you are on vacation a really long time, you could probably just take a break from MA for a week, or practice on your own early in the morning or at night.

 

[_Simon_]

What do you all think about visiting another school while on vacation?

The one I’m thinking about is advertised as Taekwondo (not part of our small association) but I’m not sure if it is Kukkiwon or not. I like the idea of getting a workout or two in over vacation that isn’t just me practicing on my own. I also like the idea of meeting new people and seeing how things are done differently.

I’m not sure if it’ll work out for me to go because leaving my husband with three small kids at bedtime in a tiny hotel room might be too torturous for him.

However, if I do go, what are the do’s and don’t’s of visiting another school?

TIA for any advice.


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I reckon it's a great idea. Would be a great experience to train with others, and most places seem very welcoming to visitors. But yeah it's a nice idea to contact them just to ask, as there may be some places that don't allow it (insurance/safety reasons maybe?).

Can't think of many dos or don'ts, except maybe just going along with how the class does things without interrupting etc. But I reckon it'd be good fun, I loved it when people dropped in from other styles/clubs

 

[dvcochran]

What do you all think about visiting another school while on vacation?

The one I’m thinking about is advertised as Taekwondo (not part of our small association) but I’m not sure if it is Kukkiwon or not. I like the idea of getting a workout or two in over vacation that isn’t just me practicing on my own. I also like the idea of meeting new people and seeing how things are done differently.

I’m not sure if it’ll work out for me to go because leaving my husband with three small kids at bedtime in a tiny hotel room might be too torturous for him.

However, if I do go, what are the do’s and don’t’s of visiting another school?

TIA for any advice.


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I suggest you do it every time you travel. Great way to expand your horizons.

 

[Michele123]

I got in touch with the school I was referring to. The instructor welcomed me to join them.

We are flying to our destination, so it would be hard for me to bring my dobok but since it isn’t my school anyway I’m not sure if I should make an effort to bring it and wear it. Thought?

I still have to convince my husband that this isn’t a bad idea. I’m hoping to be able to go once or twice over the two weeks vacation. We will see.


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[mrt2]

I got in touch with the school I was referring to. The instructor welcomed me to join them.

We are flying to our destination, so it would be hard for me to bring my dobok but since it isn’t my school anyway I’m not sure if I should make an effort to bring it and wear it. Thought?

I still have to convince my husband that this isn’t a bad idea. I’m hoping to be able to go once or twice over the two weeks vacation. We will see.


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My school requires all students to wear a uniform. If someone showed up without a uniform, they would have to borrow one from us.

 

[dvcochran]

I got in touch with the school I was referring to. The instructor welcomed me to join them.

We are flying to our destination, so it would be hard for me to bring my dobok but since it isn’t my school anyway I’m not sure if I should make an effort to bring it and wear it. Thought?

I still have to convince my husband that this isn’t a bad idea. I’m hoping to be able to go once or twice over the two weeks vacation. We will see.


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Again, check with the visiting Instructor. He may prefer you wear sweats and a tee shirt, especially if your Dobok is loud with logos and patches. Not sure why taking your Dobok is difficult to take though. Just pack it with the rest of your clothing. Because I used to travel a lot and visited as many schools as possible, I made a small bag I could put in my carry on with uni and a few pads. The intent was never to go and try to be the BMOC, just to get a good workout and experience other culture. Don't over think it.