Fresh Air.

[sojobow]

I traveled overseas for training in a non-Japanese art. It was quite fun and informative. Kreth pointed out just one thing of how he claims the Mongols used a ninja like bow, but the Japanese verison is quite different.

I wouldn't doubt this in the least. Mine is not a Japanese version. We'd like to hear/read your Japanese version. Really. So, post it.

no one with any brains is going to take the historical revisions of Sojobow with any seriousness.

Then why do you keep looking up what I say/write?

My "historical revisions" are only a work-in-progress. Therefore, it is only sojobow that should take his "historical revisions" with any seriousness. Anyone wishing a "history" should get their own. With the help of those posting their own takes, I have learned a lot and my "revisions" are being "revised" or "codified" to me.

I am also developing the opinion that the importance of this "history" - on a scale of 1 to 10, is very low (2 - 3 at best). Good conversation stuff, but as far as practical use, the history is really not very important. The whole aspect can be written in less that 4 pages. Read 3 books and you've got it. The rest - train and do.

 

[Genin Andrew]

"I am also developing the opinion that the importance of this "history" - on a scale of 1 to 10, is very low (2 - 3 at best). Good conversation stuff, but as far as practical use, the history is really not very important. The whole aspect can be written in less that 4 pages. Read 3 books and you've got it. The rest - train and do."

I think you'll find that you cant really say that as a general statement, that varies from person to person. Some indulge themselves in the history and cant wait to learn more about the beginnings of their art, while others couldnt care less they just wanna wear a hood and learn how to flip out. Then theirs the guys in between, they are interested in the history but dont want to get caught up in it,they just want to train...and flip out.

Sojobow, write the history of ninpo/ninjutsu in 4 pages? i would love to see that, when you write a 4 page summary that covers "the whole apect" please be sure to post it. I started a short history a while ago and it made 9 pages and it was VERY general and summarized...you do mean 4 A4 pages right???

much respect
-andrew

 

[Kreth]

I am also developing the opinion that the importance of this "history" - on a scale of 1 to 10, is very low (2 - 3 at best).

From an effectiveness standpoint, no, history is not all that important. However, if you're going to claim lineage back to Japan, then history becomes quite important.

Jeff

 

[Enson]

Then theirs the guys in between, they are interested in the history but dont want to get caught up in it,they just want to train...and flip out.much respect
-andrew

i would be one of those guys. but i tend to flip out more than train. still working on dicsipline.:ultracool
i agree if you want to proclaim history back to japan then it should match up with what history says. i don't remember seeing fighter jets in the history books of 15-17th century topic.:idunno:
just be honest. if you don't know then just say it. don't counter with more horrible information. thats just my take on things.
peace

 

[sojobow]

From an effectiveness standpoint, no, history is not all that important. However, if you're going to claim lineage back to Japan, then history becomes quite important.Jeff

I agree. One thing I like about this new subsection is that lineage back to Japan is not relavent. As you've noticed, I have mentioned China quite a bit and I kind of lean in that direction for now. Could change later.

 

[sojobow]

Sojobow, write the history of ninpo/ninjutsu in 4 pages?

Don't know much about ninpo/ninjutsu. Learning more about ninho/Ninjitsu. Ninjutsu history belongs in the other subsection. Sort of like apples and oranges. two different subjects and we seem to keep mixing the two up.

i would love to see that, when you write a 4 page summary that covers "the whole apect" please be sure to post it. I started a short history a while ago and it made 9 pages and it was VERY general and summarized...you do mean 4 A4 pages right??? much respect -andrew

Actually, the best "history" on Ninjitsu I've seen so far was presented on one single page. It was presented in a flow chart / organization chart format. Depends also on who the subject is being presented to. Most likely Kreth and Don would not need any elaboration. I did mean 4 pages.

 

[sojobow]

i don't remember seeing fighter jets in the history books of 15-17th century topic.:idunno:

Me neither. But I have seen Jet Fighters in the 21st Century which is the era of the discussion. They are weapons necessitating the use of Strategy. Hard to see for some - very elementary for others. If a Ninja was a master at any one thing, it is Strategy. He may not have mastered every weapon classified as "Ninja Weapons." But one thing all Ninja have in common is that they are masters of Strategy.

 

[Kreth]

I agree. One thing I like about this new subsection is that lineage back to Japan is not relavent. As you've noticed, I have mentioned China quite a bit and I kind of lean in that direction for now. Could change later.

So since your teacher's lineage to Japan has been pretty much disproven you're going with the China angle? That's how this reads to me...

Actually, the best "history" on Ninjitsu I've seen so far was presented on one single page. It was presented in a flow chart / organization chart format. Depends also on who the subject is being presented to. Most likely Kreth and Don would not need any elaboration. I did mean 4 pages.

Actually Don is much more knowledgeable than I am. I just point out the really big holes in your posts.

Jeff

 

[sojobow]

So since your teacher's lineage to Japan has been pretty much disproven you're going with the China angle? That's how this reads to me...

Oh Boy. The Talibans have struck again!!!!!!!!!

How it reads is quite clear; sojobow thinketh that Ninjitsuism may have originated in China-ith. But, sinceth you have these personal issues with someone elseth and not I'eth, why don't you go and take it up with them-eth? As stated, the "lineage to Japan" thing you and others have is really of no matter. You may take your Taliban attitudes elsewhere.

Actually Don is much more knowledgeable than I am. I just point out the really big holes in your posts. Jeff

Your life's ambitions are noted and evident. Knowledge without common sense can be lethal.

 

[Kreth]

Oh Boy. The Talibans have struck again!!!!!!!!!

You go off your meds again?

Knowledge without common sense can be lethal.

And lack of both definitely makes you amusing.

Jeff

 

[Don Roley]

Knowledge without common sense can be lethal.

Boy, what a nasty comment! Are you saying that Kreth has no comon sense? And the comments abotu the Taliban are right up there when you tried saying anyone who disagreed with you was racist.

I think I should point out that it is common sense to not try to make a connection between bow types just because both are short. After all, the ninja bow was short and so was the Mongol bow. But the Mongol bow was made with horn, recurved, etc while the ninja bow was not. It is only common sense to look deeper into something rather than try to make a case for a connection based on very little information. It is common sense to realize that some bows are going to be short for different reasons- like skulking around or using on a horse.

So, who is lacking common sense?

And who is going on about how they are "modern" but spending the most time writting silly theories about history?

 

[sojobow]

Boy, what a nasty comment! Are you saying that Kreth has no comon sense? And the comments abotu the Taliban are right up there when you tried saying anyone who disagreed with you was racist.

Nope. The common sense attribute was meant for someone else. You'l figure it out. Like the Taliban who thought man should still live in the dark ages because of tradition, some members seem to have this same thought process. Thus, Taliban.

I think I should point out that it is common sense to not try to make a connection between bow types just because both are short. After all, the ninja bow was short and so was the Mongol bow. But the Mongol bow was made with horn, recurved, etc while the ninja bow was not. It is only common sense to look deeper into something rather than try to make a case for a connection based on very little information. It is common sense to realize that some bows are going to be short for different reasons- like skulking around or using on a horse.

The reference to my post regarding length had to do with differentiating between the Samurai Bow and the Ninja Bow. I did not want to infer that these two Bows looked the same. It you remove the blinders, you'l note that I AGREED with Kreth regarding the Bows and only ADDED an additional reason for its usage. Yes, the Mongol Bow you are speaking of incorporated horn, additional inversions, etc. But somehow you missed the point that the ORIGINAL bows were the same. You're comparing a two different bows. By the time Attilla came of age, the Mongol composit bow had developed or evolved in construction. The Bow used by the Mongols before they left there original homeland was the same as that of the Ninja of Koga. The bow Attilla used was developed after his people reached Europe.

And who is going on about how they are "modern" but spending the most time writting silly theories about history?

What I am looking for is the reason the artform's creation which will assist me in my own martial development. If I know what was the purpose of its creation, I'll understand a lot better because I will know the Core Manifistations.

Actually, silly or not, I am the only one who has posted a reason why Ninjitsu might have originated. Some have said that Ninjutsu originated in Japan in the year 1,500. Easy to drop a year, but no one has posted what happened in 1,500 a.d. or shortly before, that resulted in the creation of Ninjutsu in Japan. Martial Arts, as in most things related to man and the environment, came about for a reason whether we're talking about the theory of evolution or the theory of the evolution of war. So, silly as I may be, I did base my hypotheses on a historical event (chinese warring state period) and the resulting development of Strategist. Eagerly awaiting the reason why the Japanese created Ninjutsu. What happened 'in Japan' that necessitated the creation of an all new martial arts system previously non-existing anywhere else in the entire world at that particular time?

Whatever you and those "in Japan" post will not be looked upon as 'silly' but will be appreciated for its pedagogical purpose. We await.

 

[Kreth]

The Bow used by the Mongols before they left there original homeland was the same as that of the Ninja of Koga. The bow Attilla used was developed after his people reached Europe.

Source? Include page numbers, please. If you're going to keep throwing this tripe out, I want references.

Jeff

 

[althaur]

Source? Include page numbers, please. If you're going to keep throwing this tripe out, I want references.

Jeff

I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor. :bs: :rofl:

 

[sojobow]

Source? Include page numbers, please. If you're going to keep throwing this tripe out, I want references. Jeff

Where are yours?

 

[Cryozombie]

Hehe. That dude keeps taking about himself in the third person.

Dux.

 

[Kreth]

Where are yours?

I haven't been throwing out my daydreams as fact. If you want page numbers and references for anything I've stated, please quote the specific item. In the mean time, please provide verifiable references for anything you state as fact.

Jeff

 

[sojobow]

I haven't been throwing out my daydreams as fact. If you want page numbers and references for anything I've stated, please quote the specific item. In the mean time, please provide verifiable references for anything you state as fact.

Jeff

Sure you have and no I want unless I chose to. Example: Where would someone go to "see" an 800-900 year old artifact? Where would someone go to see the oldest Sword excavated in Japan? Where would someone go to see the artifacts of Mongolia or of the Huns or of the Khans or the display of a Ninja Bow?. Sometimes we get tired of answering questions for the sake of answering questions. Saw recently an interesting display of anchient african weapons - On-line in France (Louv...)

 

[Don Roley]

Sure you have and no I want unless I chose to.

And of course, you can't provide a link to where Kreth supposably made some sort of unverifiable claim as you do so often.

The regulars of this forum all seem to have your number. You throw things out as if you were an expert, and when called for proof you evade and throw out more unverifiable fantasies to confuse the issue. My only concern is that there are new people all the time and people who don't bother to read these forums all that much and do not know just how low everyone holds you in their esteem or how often you have been proven to be less than reliable.

 

[sojobow]

And of course, you can't provide a link to where Kreth supposably made some sort of unverifiable claim as you do so often.

The regulars of this forum all seem to have your number. You throw things out as if you were an expert, and when called for proof you evade and throw out more unverifiable fantasies to confuse the issue. My only concern is that there are new people all the time and people who don't bother to read these forums all that much and do not know just how low everyone holds you in their esteem or how often you have been proven to be less than reliable.

But I constantly prove that you are wrong again and again. Here is Kreths link. I'll highlight his "unverifiable claim" just for you. And, FYI, we all thank you for your self-imposed Martialtalk Police and Moderator. Here it is: #68
===========================================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowjob
In all seriousness because I do feel you and I (even Andrew too) can participate in a good civil dialogue, please feel free to point out the gaping holes in my "historical summaries." This "pointing out" is what I am really looking forward too.


and
Quote:
And how-the-heck did the Huns end up with the Bow of the Ninja as their primary weapon since Japan was a closed/secret society at the time?

Here's a quick example, as I'm at work and don't have any references available (note: I don't consider a website a reliable reference unless it can be cross-checked). The Hun bow was an assymetric, composite bow designed for use from horseback. Are you saying this legendary "Bow of the Ninja" was a horseman's bow? What source do you have for this bow? One of Tom Brown's survival students can probably teach you to make a snap bow that vaguely resembles the Hun bow. That does not make them the same.
Quote:
But, at least, ADD SOMETHING (hopefully, other than the usual useless pomp).

You see, myself, Don, and others are adding to the discussion by correcting the musings you post as fact.

Jeff
__________________
Jeff Velten

==========================================================
Again, the bow may have been used while on horse back but the primary advantage in its design was its armour penitrating stength with far less effort in loading/pulling it. Less effort - more and faster distructive power. The same bow was also used by the Sulsa of Korea, the Ninja of Japan as well as the Hums. Now that you bring this up again, think I'll look into whether the Bow of the Chinese was also this same configuration. Interesting stuff - to me.

An honest viewer will easily see that it is you, and not I, that has a problem. I understand your taking up for your buddy. Its cool with me but tell the truth sometimes!!!!!. I know, he was at work then. Evidently he must still be at work since I asked him more than once afterward to "show me." It's still his turn. You may help him again if you feel it necessary.

As far as your "low esteem" statement, thanks for the points. I need them but I do have those that hold me in high esteem. They are who matters to me. Don't even know your ficticious coharts.