Fresh Air.

[Don Roley]

But I constantly prove that you are wrong again and again. Here is Kreths link. I'll highlight his "unverifiable claim" just for you. And, FYI, we all thank you for your self-imposed Martialtalk Police and Moderator. Here it is: #68

Boy, you had to search for that didn't you? You didn't ask him straight off, just when your back was to the corner. Well, even I can tell you a source for that. Go to Stephen Turnbull's work on the Mongols for Osprey and look at the color plates and you will find a reference for what Kreth said. That was easy.

Now you can stop avoiding the subject and give a source for the following little distraction you tried to throw out.

The Bow used by the Mongols before they left there original homeland was the same as that of the Ninja of Koga. The bow Attilla used was developed after his people reached Europe.

Author, publisher and section/ page number of course.

Of course, I doubt you can. And I call everyone's attention to the fact that there will be no source that anyone else can look up to as exacting a degree as I just gave.

I expect a lot more insults from Sojobow in the near future. It is easier that dealing with facts for him and giving references. We will see posts by him saying that other people lie, that they are bigoted, etc. And everyone who has read the threads on e-budo knows just how accurate my predictions of Sojobow's behavior has been.

 

[Kizaru]

I salute and bow to the owners and moderators of this Forum for enabling those of us, not involved in pure tyranny, a place to discuss a viable worthwhile martial science. *Salute*
I also would like to start here, a discussion of the history of Ninjitsu.

Sojobou, thank you for your posts up to this point, they have been interesting as well as enlightening.

I too believe that the bow the ninja usd was exactly the same as the bow used by the Mongolian horsemen. I believe that there were Russian ninja existing at the same time as Japanese ninja.

I also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids.

Gassho.

 

[AaronLucia]

Let's be nice kids..

 

[Kizaru]

Some difficult questions, I hope that my answer can be of some service.

Example: Where would someone go to "see" an 800-900 year old artifact?

I've held 900 to 1,000 year old swords at Mr. Matsumoto's antique shop in Noda City.

Where would someone go to see the oldest Sword excavated in Japan?

I could be mistaken, but I think it's at the Kashima Shrine in Ibaraki.

Where would someone go to see the artifacts of Mongolia

A Mongolian friend of mine has told me that there's a museum in Ulan Bataar, the capitol of Mongolia, that has alot of old artifacts. I haven't been yet, but plan on going someday.

or the display of a Ninja Bow?.

There's a museum in Nagano ken, Togakushi village, Japan, that has a museum with at least one "ninja bow" that I remember seeing. I believe that the "Iga Ueno Ninja Museum" in Japan has one as well, but I haven't been there yet to see for myself.

Sometimes we get tired of answering questions for the sake of answering questions.

Yes, but don't you believe that each generation needs to re-discover what the previous generation has learned?

Saw recently an interesting display of anchient african weapons - On-line in France (Louv...)

Good to see that you are doing homework!

Thank you for the opportunity to add to this discussion, I applaud Sojobow for putting his ideas out in public, it takes confidence to open yourself up to criticism. There's alot of misconception when it comes to these things, and I think it's good to have different perspectives in one place so people can judge for themselves.

Gassho.:asian:

 

[sojobow]

Go to Stephen Turnbull's work on the Mongols for Osprey and look at the color plates and you will find a reference for what Kreth said. That was easy.

Thanx. That was all I asked for and it makes no difference as to who presented the info. I will find Mr. Turnbull's work and read it. I also must Bow to Kreth. I was not asking him for any type of "proof" for what he said, I was asking so that I might find our more about these Bows. I actually see 5 Bows used in different regions and find this interesting (Huns, Khans, Ninja, Sulsa, Chinese). FY 100 b.c. to about 800 a.d.. But, some here propose that the Ninja didn't exist until 1500 a.d. and the Sulsa 100-600 a.d. so a Ninja Bow in 400 or 600 a.d. wouldn't make sense to them. As you know, I believe the Ninja existed well before these time periods thus, we have a conflict that can't be resolved between those two beliefs.

Now you can stop avoiding the subject and give a source for the following little distraction you tried to throw out.

Wasn't a distraction. Actually, it is 3 sources you are asking for as the Hun's were not Mongolian. At least I hope i'm correct on this point so I was wondering why Kreth was asking me for a source for a Mongolian Bow.

I expect a lot more insults from Sojobow in the near future. It is easier that dealing with facts for him and giving references. We will see posts by him saying that other people lie, that they are bigoted, etc. And everyone who has read the threads on e-budo knows just how accurate my predictions of Sojobow's behavior has been.

You will see no further insults from me directing to anyone so your recruiting effort is of no importance as far as I'm concerned.

Thanx for the heads-up. On to Mr. Turnbull's work. Let you know what I find. C U.

 

[sojobow]

Sojobou, thank you for your posts up to this point, they have been interesting as well as enlightening.

I too believe that the bow the ninja usd was exactly the same as the bow used by the Mongolian horsemen. I believe that there were Russian ninja existing at the same time as Japanese ninja.

You're quite welcome. I'm learning. Got myself in trouble with the "Russian Ninja." Austrailian Ninja didn't appreciate it. But, thus far, the only name I have is that the Yamamoto Family taught it to the Russian Royal Ivans at one time. The Yamamote Family originally lived near Kyoto. Hard to get the full story as the source is in Russian and I only speak 2 languages - English and Bad English. But I'll make sense of it sooner than later. I also understand that there are references to ancient Ninja in Russia in some Russian Govenrment's Archives.

I also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids.

Me too.

 

[sojobow]

Some difficult questions, I hope that my answer can be of some service.

I've held 900 to 1,000 year old swords at Mr. Matsumoto's antique shop in Noda City. I could be mistaken, but I think it's at the Kashima Shrine in Ibaraki. Gassho.:asian:

Were any of the Swords you held considered "Ninja" Swords? Thanks for an excellent post.

 

[Don Roley]

But, thus far, the only name I have is that the Yamamoto Family taught it to the Russian Royal Ivans at one time. The Yamamote Family originally lived near Kyoto. Hard to get the full story as the source is in Russian and I only speak 2 languages - English and Bad English. But I'll make sense of it sooner than later. I also understand that there are references to ancient Ninja in Russia in some Russian Govenrment's Archives.

Let us get this straight. You just were shown as being a liar about the relationship between Mongol Bows and the ones used by ninja (BTW another source that proves you wrong- the Nov/Dec 1991 issue of Command Magazine page 4) and you just pile on more historical fanstasy without even an attempt at a reference.

You can't scream about being prosecuted to the moderators this time. We are only showing that your sources are non-existent, your statements contradict established facts and you make no sense logically. By making such staments, you open yourself open to the bloodletting that is going on now. Everyone knows you are troll and no one seems to be takening you seriously. Enjoy.
:flame:

 

[sojobow]

Let us get this straight. You just were shown as being a liar about the relationship between Mongol Bows and the ones used by ninja (BTW another source that proves you wrong- the Nov/Dec 1991 issue of Command Magazine page 4) and you just pile on more historical fanstasy without even an attempt at a reference.

Give it a rest Please. you constantly call me a liar about a Mongol Bow. The conversation is question between someone else and myself is regarding a Hun Bow. Not a Mongol Bow. We can expand the conversation if you wish to include a Mongol Bow, a Sulsa Bow, and a Chinese Bow.

Thanx.

 

[Don Roley]

Give it a rest Please. you constantly call me a liar about a Mongol Bow.

Because you did lie knowingly about the Mongol bow. The Mongols invaded Japan, or at least tried to, and you commented on how the Mongol bow was similar to the bow used by the ninja.

Except the nasty little fact that the Mongol bow (again using the Command article from 1991) used wood, sinew and horn in it's contstruction. But the bow used by the ninja, known as the hankyu, was nothing more than a half sized version of the standard bow, and I dare you to find a LEGITIMATE source that says the standard samurai bow used those items.

If anyone thinks that sojobow is a trustworthy source for information, please speak up now. If you think he is a joke, then just keep quiet and enjoy the show. You can't say we are prosecuting him snce the subject mater is about such things as the bow used by the ninja- which he has so far refused to show even one source of proof to.

 

[sojobow]

Because you did lie knowingly about the Mongol bow. The Mongols invaded Japan, or at least tried to, and you commented on how the Mongol bow was similar to the bow used by the ninja.

Except the nasty little fact that the Mongol bow (again using the Command article from 1991) used wood, sinew and horn in it's contstruction. But the bow used by the ninja, known as the hankyu, was nothing more than a half sized version of the standard bow, and I dare you to find a LEGITIMATE source that says the standard samurai bow used those items.

I'll say this and then I'm finished with this subject (we hope). We were discussing the events which brought about the "Ninja." I hope to get back to the origins of the Ninja and not who used what Bow during 1000 years of evolution. I am also glad to see you researching what I say. You and I will both learn something I hope.

The Hun, prior to their entry into the Roman Empire, used a Reflex Bow. The Mongols used a Reflex Bow. The ancient Chinese used a Reflex Bow. The Sulsa of Korea (Korean Ninja) used a Reflex Bow. The Ninja of Japan, used a Reflex Bow. The Reflex Bow was invented in Asia (by the Chinese - Chou Dynasty) and used throughtout the Asian continent. All of these Bow were made of wood, sinew and horn.

The Composit Bow was not developed until later (about 400 AD by Attila's Hun after they moved into the Roman Empire. The Huns developed and used a lamenating process, a tortured wood process, bone and horn. Before then, the Hun, being Nomads, used the Reflex Bow (while in Asia) and not the Composit Bow (until reaching the Roman Empire).

The Samurai used an altogether different Bow during a later time period. Much longer/taller than the Ninja Bow.

As Attila's Huns when reaching Western Europe and the Roman Empire, as stated, they developed a Composit Bow. Kreth was correct in that it was developed partially because of the development of the Sturips (those things you put your feet in while riding a horse) and also because the bow developed much more power with the same pull as the Reflex Bow. I have no idea why you would want me to find a source for the samurai bow as you state. I have never said the samurai bow was the same as any other. Although, now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised in finding the older/first of the samurai used the Reflex bow.

Again, congratulations with you new research. Keep looking, you'll eventually find something I said is incorrect. I have no doubt. Hope everyone gets on your side so you'll stop and allow us the continue with items of interest. If it helps you, I'll vote to be on your side.

Again. Kreth and I were discussing the Hun and not the Mongol. Kreth was speaking of 400 a.d.. I was speaking of 100 years earlier. He, as I stated, was correct.

 

[Don Roley]

And of course, there is not one single source of reference for all that dribble that Sojobow just wrote. Anyone that bothers to research into the subject of history will realize just how hysterical Sojobow's writings about the subject are. Those who do not have the time or interest can merely look at the fact that he lists nothing that they can check out for themselves.

Hence the reason why we laugh at him so much.

 

[Seig]

Take the pissing match offline. If you want to disprove something, do it with fact, not commentary.

Seig
MT OPS Admin

 

[Don Roley]

If you want to disprove something, do it with fact, not commentary.

Is it not the other way around? I mean, should it not be that if you want to
prove something you do it with facts- facts that can be checked, instead of fancy stories that have no basis in reality?

 

[Kizaru]

My original post was in multiple parts, as responses to Sojobow's questions. Strung together as one, it gets easy to mis-read. Originally I had written:

Originally Posted by Kizaru
Some difficult questions, I hope that my answer can be of some service.

Written in response to a string of questions posted by Sojobow.

I've held 900 to 1,000 year old swords at Mr. Matsumoto's antique shop in Noda City.

Written in response to something like, "where could you go to see a 1,000 year old artifact"

I could be mistaken, but I think it's at the Kashima Shrine in Ibaraki..

Writen in response to "where is the oldest sword in Japan".

Were any of the Swords you held considered "Ninja" Swords? Thanks for an excellent post.

To answer the current question, I was told by the shop owner, who is quite knowledgable, that any sword held by a "ninja" would be a "ninja" sword. I was told that there was no specific design for a "Ninja Sword", depending on ryu ha some were long, some were shorter; just like with the Samurai, some had blades longer than 73cm, some were shorter, depended on the ryu ha and the person. Back to the original question, if a sword was made 1,000 years ago, and was used by a "ninja" in say the 1600's (around the time when ninjutsu was born in Japan) , would that make it a "ninja sword"? Would the next person using it care?

 

[Kizaru]

the only name I have is that the Yamamoto Family taught it to the Russian Royal Ivans at one time.

Yamamoto "Family"? Yamamoto is a pretty common name in Japan. Assuming that anyone in Japan named "Yamamoto" knows ninjutsu would be like assuming any one named "Kennedy" would be related to the former American president with the same name.

The Yamamote Family originally lived near Kyoto. Hard to get the full story as the source is in Russian and I only speak 2 languages - English and Bad English.

If the "source" is only in Russian, how do you communicate with the source?

But I'll make sense of it sooner than later. I also understand that there are references to ancient Ninja in Russia in some Russian Govenrment's Archives.

I find that extremely difficult to believe. You should double check whoever is telling you these things, they may not be entirely truthful with you.

Quote:
I also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids.
Me too.

"YOU CAN LIVE ON FISHES, BUT YA CAN'T LIVE ON WISHES" -Pee Wee Herman

 

[BoneBreaker]

It seems nothing sojobow has said in regards to this thread is entirely impossible. It seems he would be the one interested if a sword had ever been wielded by an Ancient Ninja. It seems he is interested , and wants to find out if some asian guy showed a russian guy some MA's a long time ago. I think because of his nature, Sojobow brings out the worst in good people such as Don Roley and others. I personally respect Sojobow's passion. It is interesting. He is respectful under fire. There is no documentation presented as of yet that can prove it is true or not true essentially. This is the credo of his style. It is built entirely around the same concept. I fail to understand some people's insistence and or persistence regarding this matter. If you do not believe it, why comment. Would you know truth regarding this matter if it bit you? I doubt anyone would.

 

[sojobow]

Yamamoto "Family"? Yamamoto is a pretty common name in Japan. Assuming that anyone in Japan named "Yamamoto" knows ninjutsu would be like assuming any one named "Kennedy" would be related to the former American president with the same name.

If the "source" is only in Russian, how do you communicate with the source?

I find that extremely difficult to believe. You should double check whoever is telling you these things, they may not be entirely truthful with you.

Quote:
I also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids. Me too.

The source is a text written/translated into English. Broken English. Thanks. Actually, the source of the writing is not quite clear to me. I am looking further into maybe a "motive" behind his writing on the subject. It looks or sounds like a number of Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu dojos had opened in Russia's capital and the gentleman was writing about his displeasure with what he considers a fake art and not worthy of the Russian peoples interest. This, he makes statements (in very broken English) like (paraphrasing): "just because some Ninja family named yamamoto from Kyoto came to Russia and taught the ancient Ivans his art, doesn't mean this artform still exist. Then, the Yamamoto's disappeared." In fact, reading more closely, the writing says "some nicks with names like Yamamoto of Kyoto" or something like this which would indicate the more than one "Ninja Family" visited Russia. It's like the article/letter was inadvertently listed once found (accidentally released).

He seem very knowedgeable about Ninjutsu as he mentions what sources one should concentrate on when studing Ninjutsu History, a couple of books written by Samurai on Ninjutsu techniques etc. He's done some research.

 

[sojobow]

Kreth:

Actually what is interesting about the Bow subject is that I originally misinterpreted two pictures of the Bows. I see the Ninja Bow then see the Hun Bow and mistakenly concluded that the Hun must have had a relationship with Ninja. When, more close to the truth was that the Bow was 500 years old (at that time) and was used throughout Asia as far south as Tibet, India, Sri Lanka (sp.l). Its kind of like the Sword. Once the forging techniques were codified, everyone picked up on it.

But, I still believe that the Ninja profession began during the chinese warring state period and ended up in Japan by way of migration from china to korea to Japan. Ninjutsu (a basic amalgamation of arts and sciences) may be indeed a Japanese Creation but the Profession of Ninja is not. Just my opinion.

 

[Seig]

Is it not the other way around? I mean, should it not be that if you want to
prove something you do it with facts- facts that can be checked, instead of fancy stories that have no basis in reality?

Don,
While I understand your point, one cannot prove a negative. This is going into the realm of dogged fraud busting. If the claims are fanciful, and I am not commenting either way, won't they prove themselves out?
Seig