Fresh Air.

[Genin Andrew]

I personally dont believe alot of what Sojobow says, which is why i am not one of those to jump up and call him a reliable source like Don called for.

I post because i like to counter what he says and see how he responds, I dont have anything against him personally just his take on history...I'm sure if he read a few decent history books his posts would be almost of value.

 

[sojobow]

I personally dont believe alot of what Sojobow says, which is why i am not one of those to jump up and call him a reliable source like Don called for.

I post because i like to counter what he says and see how he responds, I dont have anything against him personally just his take on history...I'm sure if he read a few decent history books his posts would be almost of value.

I neither claim to know of a Ninjutsu history nor am I a source for Ninjutsu History. But, I am very interested in the Ninja and its evolution up to today. I have noticed that these "history" books are either written by someone lineagely associated with Budo-Taijutsu which present a constant slant and those people not associated with Budo-Taijutsu who have written their books on Ninjutsu with quite a different slant. To juxtapose these two schools of thought and determind if there are similarities will lead on to believe that personal adgendas are involved. I have come to the opinion that books on Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu have little interest compared to books on Ninja. Two different histories. I don't think anyone - including me - actually knows for sure. So, I'll take the word of my teachers as being the most reliable.

Howz about posting a couple of references you'd suggest I read?

 

[Don Roley]

Don,
While I understand your point, one cannot prove a negative.

Huh?

If someone says with a voice of authority that the ninja/ mongol/ sulsa, etc used the same kind of bow, then they should be able to provide some sort of proof that they did. There should be books and page numbers.

Trying to prove a negative is what you are asking US to do to counter the tons of bad historical information Sojobow is tossing out there. How do we PROVE that the bow used by the Mongols changed after they moved west when there is no source that backs up what sojobow says AFAIK. It is like saying that just because no one wrote down that the Easter Bunny WAS NOT at the court of King Richard, that we can't prove it was not.

So if Sojobow or anyone says something, it should be their burden to prove it. "Proving a negative" is what you are asking people to do when you say they much shoot down such weird stories that are not backed up by any sources.

 

[Kreth]

I know, [Kreth] was at work then. Evidently he must still be at work since I asked him more than once afterward to "show me." It's still his turn. You may help him again if you feel it necessary.

I'm sorry, I was off for the weekend doing "real life" (TM) stuff. I saw no reason to post references, as Don did so. But, since you made the request, here are my sources:
Gorin no Sho - Miyamoto Musashi
Art of War - Sun Tzu
Samurai Warfare - Stephen Turnbull
Ninja: The Invisible Assassins - Andrew Adams
To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee
The DaVinci Code - Dan Brown
The Art of the Matrix - Andy and Larry Wachowski

I won't provide page numbers, as I'm sure any interested parties in the discussion are already familiar with these standard texts...

Jeff

 

[sojobow]

Huh?

If someone says with a voice of authority that the ninja/ mongol/ sulsa, etc used the same kind of bow, then they should be able to provide some sort of proof that they did. There should be books and page numbers.

There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web. There are websites that discuss the bows from a point of view of a hobbist (these guys make the weapon and include the history just for fun). I gave my opinion. all you need do is draw down a picture from a website and discuss it. You don't have to go buy a book when the pictures are very abundant right here on the web. But, I understand. It's me, not what I say, that you have the problem with. Such a waste.

 

[Don Roley]

There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web.

And if that was so, you could post a link, like many of us do. And if you did, we could evalutate the source- see if it is a respectable source, or Ashida Kim's web site. (Which, incidently, is the only site that agreed with your statement about there ever being a Black Dragon Tong in Japan.)

Since you can not find even a single source to back up your numerous claims, the logical thing to assume is that you do not know what you are talking about and are trying to confuse the issue while tearing down history to suit your purposes.

 

[Genin Andrew]

There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web. QUOTE]

Sojobow when you say things like this its only logical to provide examples, if there are "thousands" of sites surely you can provide at least 1...Take note, its these type of comments that get people on your back. Instead of taking Don's posts as personal attacks you should take them as something to think about.

I hope you can manage to post at least 1 or 2 of these "thousands" of links so you can put the matter to rest.

-andrew

 

[sojobow]

There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web. QUOTE]

Sojobow when you say things like this its only logical to provide examples, if there are "thousands" of sites surely you can provide at least 1...Take note, its these type of comments that get people on your back. Instead of taking Don's posts as personal attacks you should take them as something to think about.

I hope you can manage to post at least 1 or 2 of these "thousands" of links so you can put the matter to rest.-andrew

I answered this before you asked. Keep listening to "the Don's." They'll make sure you learn nothing. Now, it's time for "the Don's" to show me theirs and something of substance from you would be nice.

2 words - 50,030 hits but you guys can't do it.

http://www.mongoliatoday.com/issue/7/warriors.html Despite all the efforts of the Chinese emperors to keep the secret of making arms by prohibiting the sale of any metals to the northern neighbors, nomads learned how to melt metals and make own ar
http://www.grozerarchery.com/bows_intro.htm
Most of the bows introduced below have been used in the Carpathian basin (Hungary) . They mostly were traditional eastern bows, the so-called rigid tipped compound reflex bows. Certain types of bows were named after the people who had used them.
http://www.allempires.com/empires/huns/huns1.htm "The Hun's Military"
http://www.archery2000.co.uk/traditional_bows.htm Korean, Mongol, Hun bows - all Reflex
http://www.mongoliatoday.com/issue/7/warriors.html Note "chinese emperior's efforts to keep secrets.....
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Huns The Hun Bow is an asymmetric , composit and reflex Bow.
http://www.bowstick.com/mongolian.html Composite Bows represent the top of the line Reflex Bows
http://www.archerysociety.org/bows.html Magyar's Reflex Compound Bows (Note: Magyars = Huns) Bow also used by Mongols.

You might also want to read Sun Tzu: The Art of War, Samuel B. Griffith's Introduction, Chapter III, The Warring States et sequel and Translation, Chapter 13. You should then be able to articulate why Ninja was invented and what a Ninja actually is. If you are unable to comprehend what is written, I'd suggest you take up NikeJutsu and leave war arts to the warriors. The is a short list of other text, but if all of you don't understand this one, why bother with the next 2.

Answer before questioned.

 

[Don Roley]

Nice attempt at diversion but you were talking about how the bows used by the Mongols were the same as the ones used by the Sulsa, Ninja, etc. You have failed to show a source for that theory- just stuff on the Mongol bow and NOTHING on how it resembles the bows used by the ninja, etc.

So, we all knew that the Mongols used composite reflex bows. No one was disputing that if you bother to read the posts. It is the fact that their construction materials, construction methods, etc were different from Japan is what you are trying to avoid. The Mongols used horn in their bows for one thing (Command Magazine Nov-Dec 1991 page 4) and the bows used in Japan did not. Show me a source that says that Japanese bows use by ninja used horn or shared signifigent charecteristics with the Mongol bows other than being short.

Oh, and before you scream at me to list MY sources, take a look at page 148 of History and Tradition for a picture of the ninja bow and compare it with the Mongol bow posted above. Also pages 149, 150 and 195. It does not take much to see that the bows bare little in common with the Mongol bow other than being short.

And while you are finished with that, get some sources for the existence of the Black Dragon TONG in Japan, a GOOD source that says ninja used ancient, straight swords (or existed as a group called "ninja" when the Chinese swords were current issue) and sources for everything else you have been spewing out.

It is intersting to note how you started at the top of this page by saying, "I neither claim to know of a Ninjutsu history nor am I a source for Ninjutsu History. But, I am very interested in the Ninja and its evolution up to today." and you last post tried to tear me down as being ignorant of history. "listen to 'the dons'" indeed! Are you trying to say that you are an expert? Then list your sources for the Black Dragon TONG in Japan!

 

[sojobow]

In this case I am right because you were talking about how the bows used by the Mongols was the same as the ones used by the Sulsa, Ninja, etc.

So, we all knew that the Mongols used composite reflex bows. No one was disputing that if you bother to read the posts. It is the fact that their construction materials, construction methods, etc were different from Japan is what you are trying to avoid. The Mongols used horn in their bows for one thing (Command Magazine Nov-Dec 1991 page 4) and the bows used in Japan did not. Show me a source that says that Japanese bows use by ninja used horn or shared signifigent charecteristics with the Mongol bows other than being short.

And while you are finished with that, get some sources for the existence of the Black Dragon TONG in Japan, a GOOD source that says ninja used ancient, straight swords (or existed as a group called "ninja" when the Chinese swords were current issue) and sources for everything else you have been spewing out.

Try and squeeze out any way you want. What I said was that the Huns (while in Hungary (now called Hungary) and after their nomadic ventures to Europe, the Mongols, Korean, Chinese, Japan's Ninja, Tibetian, Sri Lankans all used the Reflex Bow. Now, reading your post, I don't believe you even know what a Reflex Bow is defined as. I'm sure that if I look further, I'll find that the Samurai used the reflex bow in their beginnings. But, since I wasn't interested, I did not look. You said I was incorrect. Look at the links I provided - or should I say "read" the links I provided. If you were in Japan after 500 b.c., and was involved in warfare (and some degree - eating) you used a reflex bow unless somehow, Japan hadn't floated into the region yet. Face the fact, you really don't know as much as you think even though you live in Japan.

I'll be glad to read your religous magazine. Just post the page/blurb. Thus far, I was unable to find it.

Show me proof that I am wrong about anything else not just your spewing out your usual editorials and commentary. Show proof that I am wrong or else, I'm correct.

 

[Don Roley]

Try and squeeze out any way you want. What I said was that the Huns (while in Hungary (now called Hungary) and after their nomadic ventures to Europe, the Mongols, Korean, Chinese, Japan's Ninja, Tibetian, Sri Lankans all used the Reflex Bow.

Snip

If you were in Japan after 500 b.c., and was involved in warfare (and some degree - eating) you used a reflex bow unless somehow, Japan hadn't floated into the region yet.

No you did not say that and no it is not true. Take a look at your post #74 of this thread. You did not try to make that point. List a link to the quote if it is true instead of hoping people will not remember well enough and let you slip by.

But in post #74 you did try to point out that the Huns (later changed to "the Khans" in a later, corrective post) tried to invade Japan twice. So after trying to suggest a link between the invasion of Japan by the Mongols and the bow types used now you are saying that the bow made the leap to Japan about 2000 years earlier?

And take a look at the picture of the ninja bow on page 149 of the source I listed ("Ninjutsu-History and Tradition" with Hatsumi's name on the cover). You call that a true reflex bow? :bs:

And take a look at this link,
http://www.kyudo.com/kyudo-e5.html

and notice that the word "Reflex" is glaringly noticable in its absence. Take a look at the bows themselves! You don't even know that reflex bows were used by the Mongols but not in Japan? Go ahead, try to list a LEGITIMATE link that says that reflex bows were used in Japan. All the sources will give pictures pretty much like the one I posted a link to above that do not show the same bend that you find in Mongol bows.

Oh, and I will just point out how you have side stepped the whole Black Dragon TONG thing while trying to divert attention away from it. It seems to be your tactic to throw out some fantasy and when called on it, pile on more to confuse the issue and turn the conversation into a new, less embarrasing direction.

 

[sojobow]

No you did not say that and no it is not true. Take a look at your post #74 of this thread. You did not try to make that point. List a link to the quote if it is true instead of hoping people will not remember well enough and let you slip by.

Start with post 92. More particular, Post 105. See, you don't even have to try to remember. Just a short list of links you say don't exist. But they do, in fact, exist. Snip: "Thanx. That was all I asked for and it makes no difference as to who presented the info. I will find Mr. Turnbull's work and read it. I also must Bow to Kreth. I was not asking him for any type of "proof" for what he said, I was asking so that I might find our more about these Bows. I actually see 5 Bows used in different regions and find this interesting (Huns, Khans, Ninja, Sulsa, Chinese). FY 100 b.c. to about 800 a.d.. But, some here propose that the Ninja didn't exist until 1500 a.d. and the Sulsa 100-600 a.d. so a Ninja Bow in 400 or 600 a.d. wouldn't make sense to them. As you know, I believe the Ninja existed well before these time periods thus, we have a conflict that can't be resolved between those two beliefs." (sojobow to Don Roley)Then, Post 109. Keep going? try post 111.

But in post #74 you did try to point out that the Huns (later changed to "the Khans" in a later, corrective post) tried to invade Japan twice. So after trying to suggest a link between the invasion of Japan by the Mongols and the bow types used now you are saying that the bow made the leap to Japan about 2000 years earlier?

You're trying to suggest this, not I. I say too much as it is so adding additional words for me doesn't help.

And take a look at the picture of the ninja bow on page 149 of the source I listed ("Ninjutsu-History and Tradition" with Hatsumi's name on the cover). You call that a true reflex bow?

What do you call it? As I stated eons ago, your Ryu and I have a different time period for most points. I speak of 800 years earlier, you speek of the 15th and 16th Centuries. So, in this instance, the discussion was on Reflex Bows circa 500 bc to 800 ad. You keep asking we discuss circa 1500-1600 Bows. We'll never agree. With all due respect to Hatsumi, there are other sources.

And take a look at this link,http://www.kyudo.com/kyudo-e5.html and notice that the word "Reflex" is glaringly noticable in its absence. Take a look at the bows themselves! You don't even know that reflex bows were used by the Mongols but not in Japan? Go ahead, try to list a LEGITIMATE link that says that reflex bows were used in Japan. All the sources will give pictures pretty much like the one I posted a link to above that do not show the same bend that you find in Mongol bows.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the pictures and links I posted. Then look at your link. Word may be "glaringly noticable in its absence" but the picture depicts a Reflex Bow compable to the bows in the Korean, Hun, Mongol link I gave you. I would also think that an particular Ryu teaching any particular weapon, would have a reference weapon in particular for that Ryu. I'm discussing universal applications, your narrowing it to a select few. .....................................................

Oh, and I will just point out how you have side stepped the whole Black Dragon TONG thing while trying to divert attention away from it. It seems to be your tactic to throw out some fantasy and when called on it, pile on more to confuse the issue and turn the conversation into a new, less embarrasing direction.

No I didn't. I listed "additional" names of organizations with "Black Dragon" within. It'a a subject like that of the Triads. Interesting. The Black Dragon subject goes back well over 1,700 years. Many legends. No big deal. No issue to me. What else?

 

[sojobow]

There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web.

Instead of taking Don's posts as personal attacks you should take them as something to think about.

Since you think Don is always right I guess. They are personal attacks. What has transpired since your last post (the one I'm replying to here) should prove this point. Ain't nuttin knew.

I hope you can manage to post at least 1 or 2 of these "thousands" of links so you can put the matter to rest. -andrew

What makes you thing this. The "matter" is not the point to them. It is I. Did you really think my posting proof to them would mean anything?

 

[Don Roley]

Start with post 92.

This is what it says,

Yes, the Mongol Bow you are speaking of incorporated horn, additional inversions, etc. But somehow you missed the point that the ORIGINAL bows were the same. You're comparing a two different bows. By the time Attilla came of age, the Mongol composit bow had developed or evolved in construction. The Bow used by the Mongols before they left there original homeland was the same as that of the Ninja of Koga. The bow Attilla used was developed after his people reached Europe.

So where are the references to back this little bit of silliness up? Where are the references on what a Koga ryu bow looked like and a mention of how the early bows the Mongols used looked like? You posted a picture of a Mongol bow, and it was not like any bow used in Japan. If it was a later one, why do so if you point is that the ORIGINAL bows were the same? Why not find a picture of the original bow, etc?

You just finished trying to say that reflex bows were used in Japan. Now you are trying to confuse the subject and slip away. Go ahead, show me a reflex bow that was used in Japan. But of course, you can look at a picture of a bow that is clearly not a reflex bow and try to say it is just to try to cover your tail. I encourage everyone to look up the pictures I posted a link to for themselves. This is your tactic of getting shown up as not very familiar with the subject matter and laying on more BS to cover your tail.

I listed "additional" names of organizations with "Black Dragon" within. It'a a subject like that of the Triads. Interesting. The Black Dragon subject goes back well over 1,700 years. Many legends. No big deal. No issue to me. What else?

Oh really? Take a look at this post everybody! More stuff without references! The original post by Sojobow is a few up from the post linked to.

 

[sojobow]

This is what it says,
So where are the references to back this little bit of silliness up? Where are the references on what a Koga ryu bow looked like and a mention of how the early bows the Mongols used looked like? You posted a picture of a Mongol bow, and it was not like any bow used in Japan. If it was a later one, why do so if you point is that the ORIGINAL bows were the same? Why not find a picture of the original bow, etc?

I did already. Just click on the links. Not my problem if you can't see are read.

Oh really? Take a look at this post everybody! More stuff without references! The original post by Sojobow is a few up from the post linked to.

Still trying to recruit are we. Please, "everybody" agree with Don so we can move on. Knowbody cares about the Black Dragon subject. The gentlemen asking the original question even asked the we leave and subject and continue with the thread subject. What is your problem!!!?

what else?

 

[Enson]

can we get this thread locked now?

 

[Kizaru]

Still trying to recruit are we. Please, "everybody" agree with Don so we can move on.

I disagree with both of you because you are BOTH completely WRONG!

It's been a secret to most for centuries, but I'll expose it here on martialtalk.com, because it needs to be done.

Aliens from Xenon in heavy competion with the Elohim race (see this link here for proof of their existence http://www.rael.org/english/index.html ) brought the reflex bow to the Pygmy tribes of Africa. The Pygmies, setting sail in the dawn of the Christian era in ships resembling those used by Marco Polo http://www.silk-road.com/artl/marcopolo.shtml brought the SAME bow to the Ninja in Japan, the Khans, the Huns and finally, the Aztecs. See, the Khans welcomed Marco Polo when he finally did come becuase they recognized the shape of the ship that brought them their reflex bows. These simple facts have been overlooked for years due to the fact that the Pygmies were masacred by the Azetecs (they were tired from their trip around the world, and by ths time, their reflex bow bowstrings had gotten wet), and was later covered up by the thrid Spanish Inquisition ( http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Studio/5058/h_sketch1.html this page is in JAPANESE so Don Roley can't doubt it's authenticity, but I invite all to see for yourselves! Yeah, I speak Japanese too Donny Shihan!) following the conquest of South America.

*NOW* we can lock this thread I think.