Fraud, or Just don't know better...
- Thread starter iron_ox
- Start date
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
I don't agree.
We still have Hapkido. We have different takes on it such as SIN MU Hapkido, and KUK SOOL Hapkido and HWA RANG Hapkido and a whole range of Hapkido kwans including Mu Sool, Yon Mu and Mu Ye. The Kidohae and the KHF both recognize a whole range of kwans for themselves. Its the same as karate with all kinds of types and Chuan Fa with all kinds of types etc etc etc.
What we don't have so far is a minimal standard that we all hold in common and a uniform nomenclature for doing what we do. Until that happens the Hapkido arts are free-game for anyone with an imagination. FWIW.
I know one thing that needs to be settled is whether a person can adopt the title of Kwanjang or whether it must be bestowed. Nobody seems to want to come out of the closet on this one.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
We still have Hapkido. We have different takes on it such as SIN MU Hapkido, and KUK SOOL Hapkido and HWA RANG Hapkido and a whole range of Hapkido kwans including Mu Sool, Yon Mu and Mu Ye. The Kidohae and the KHF both recognize a whole range of kwans for themselves. Its the same as karate with all kinds of types and Chuan Fa with all kinds of types etc etc etc.
What we don't have so far is a minimal standard that we all hold in common and a uniform nomenclature for doing what we do. Until that happens the Hapkido arts are free-game for anyone with an imagination. FWIW.
I know one thing that needs to be settled is whether a person can adopt the title of Kwanjang or whether it must be bestowed. Nobody seems to want to come out of the closet on this one.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
OP
OP
iron_ox
Black Belt
Hello Bruce,
I disagree here. There is Hapkido, then there is all the other stuff, that is not Hapkido. People making up crap rank and crap style that tack Hapkido on the end is not Hapkido. If it is not from the Choi root, or at least the Ji root, it is not Hapkido. There is no "interpretation" - just the original 3808 techniques Choi taught - if what someone calls "Hapkido" is not from that tree it ain't Hapkido.
Shotokan has some variance in how particular instructors teach, but the root techniques are the same - this is an art - the same applies for Hapkido - if someone wants to have a "new" or "different" philosophy, GREAT - but IT IS NOT HAPKIDO!
Thanks for the rant time...
I disagree here. There is Hapkido, then there is all the other stuff, that is not Hapkido. People making up crap rank and crap style that tack Hapkido on the end is not Hapkido. If it is not from the Choi root, or at least the Ji root, it is not Hapkido. There is no "interpretation" - just the original 3808 techniques Choi taught - if what someone calls "Hapkido" is not from that tree it ain't Hapkido.
Shotokan has some variance in how particular instructors teach, but the root techniques are the same - this is an art - the same applies for Hapkido - if someone wants to have a "new" or "different" philosophy, GREAT - but IT IS NOT HAPKIDO!
Thanks for the rant time...
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Absolutely. There is no way that I can dispute that Choi must figure in there somewhere. Where we begin to disagree is when you step across the line and legitimize Ji. Once the worms are out of the can you aren't going to get them all back in. And you certainly are not going to get the Hapkido community to disavow Ji or Lee or Kimm or a host of other folks. What we CAN do is draw a line NOW and say "this far and no farther." Now folks like Pelligrini will scream that they should have the line drawn behind them rather than in front of them ---- inclusion rather than exclusion. As far as "I" am concerned Pelligrini and others lost this when he owned that he didn't teach "Hapkido" but still went ahead and used the label for its name recognition. Hes been fighting for legitimacy ever since.
It would have been a help had Choi left a nice neat paper trail such as the scrolls we associate with various Japanese and Chinese arts. I have been making a case for the MYTBTJ to be accepted at least as some bonafide, but that my own personal Quest. In the meantime we have folks who have taken Chois' material and added and subtracted and now we have to deal with that. It would have been nice to have a curriculum neat and tidy but we don't and now we have to make do.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
It would have been a help had Choi left a nice neat paper trail such as the scrolls we associate with various Japanese and Chinese arts. I have been making a case for the MYTBTJ to be accepted at least as some bonafide, but that my own personal Quest. In the meantime we have folks who have taken Chois' material and added and subtracted and now we have to deal with that. It would have been nice to have a curriculum neat and tidy but we don't and now we have to make do.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
bruce, this is not universally true. i think you're being unfair to at least some people, and i can use my own experience to demonstrate.glad2bhere said:
i trained in ji do kwan (the pre-tkd style that is still taught) for a few years before beginning to train in hapkido. i attended two separate schools, one for each art. we did absolutely nothing hapkido-like in ji do kwan, and we do absolutely nothing ji do kwan-like in jungki hapkido. i was indeed learning two arts, until i abandoned ji do kwan to devote all of my training time to hapkido.
nobody sold me any images. i sought out both schools on my own and joined them after evaluating them based on what i perceived to be their merits.
i'll grant that there are some tkd instructors who are guilty of the behavior you describe, but you seem to imply that everybody who says they train in tkd and hapkido is misrepresenting things. i don't think you can prove that from the available evidence.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Sorry, Howard, but I think there is a matter of degree here that cannot be ignored. Lets take your case.
Most certainly you trained in Ji Do Kwan and most certainly you trained in Hapkido at the Junk Ki Kwan. In my own case I have been with the Yon Mu Kwan since 1990, and trained separately in sword at a separate kwan. In this way we both know this can be done. The key is, how many people actually do this? Remember the old rule of thumb about how only one student in a hundred students makes it to a legit BB in a martial art? Well think of how many people represent themselves as teaching (not just training in) more than one MA. How many times have you stumbled across a website and the guy has more degrees than a thermometer. How many times have you passed a MA school and there are five to ten arts listed on the window? You don't really think that fella running that school actually trained in all of those arts to the point of true mastery, do you? I have standing in two arts and its everything I can do to keep up with those two--- and I won't even pretend to say I have "mastered" them. ( People who wonder why there should be manditory time in grade should try to legitimately maintain a competency in two or more skill-sets at the same time. Its an eye-opener!!).
I'm sorry if what I said hit a little close to home and I am not casting aspirsions. But my experience has been that there are a whole lot more of "them" than "us". FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Most certainly you trained in Ji Do Kwan and most certainly you trained in Hapkido at the Junk Ki Kwan. In my own case I have been with the Yon Mu Kwan since 1990, and trained separately in sword at a separate kwan. In this way we both know this can be done. The key is, how many people actually do this? Remember the old rule of thumb about how only one student in a hundred students makes it to a legit BB in a martial art? Well think of how many people represent themselves as teaching (not just training in) more than one MA. How many times have you stumbled across a website and the guy has more degrees than a thermometer. How many times have you passed a MA school and there are five to ten arts listed on the window? You don't really think that fella running that school actually trained in all of those arts to the point of true mastery, do you? I have standing in two arts and its everything I can do to keep up with those two--- and I won't even pretend to say I have "mastered" them. ( People who wonder why there should be manditory time in grade should try to legitimately maintain a competency in two or more skill-sets at the same time. Its an eye-opener!!).
I'm sorry if what I said hit a little close to home and I am not casting aspirsions. But my experience has been that there are a whole lot more of "them" than "us". FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
bruce, i agree with what you're saying, as a generalization i think people should be somewhat wary of tkd schools saying that they also offer hapkido, because of the tendency you cite. guess i was just being a little cantankerous in pointing out that there are exceptions... not many, probably, but a few.glad2bhere said:
regards, howard
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
I know what you are saying, let me take this a step farther though. Lets put dual training to one side for just a moment and deal JUSt with Hapkido all by itself.
I just got a copy of Turtle Press' latest catalog. Turned to pg 11 because I saw the heading "hapkido". There on the page are four DVD-s for sale courtesy of "Grandmaster Myung Yong Kim, founder of Hapkido Jin Jung Kwan and Grandmaster Chang Soo Lee, head of Hapkido Jin Jung Kwan" (sic). Now, what is a person to make of this. Well considering that the DVD-s include "some of their top instuctors" a person could be excused for reading fast and thinking that here are a couple of founding individuals of the art of Hapkido as opposed to just one more in a line of people who started their own kwan or "study group". It also doesn't help that the press goes on to say that you will be learning from " the headmaster, founder and demonstration team members of this dynamic Korean art." Once again, read fast and declinated according to the specifics, it could easily be interpreted in ones' mind that one will "learn from the head master of this Korean art, learn from the founder of this Korean art, and learn from the demostration team members of this Korean art", yes? Not only that but press goes on to intimate that if one were to purchase both vol 1&2 "....this series presents a complete self-defense series." (sic). Sure would have been nice if someone could have told me that my entire 20 Hapkido career could well have been encapsulated on two DVD-s in 75 techniques or less.
Please know that none of this a commentary on your posts. I share this only because like anyone else I would like to see the integrity of the art I practice regarded, thats all. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I just got a copy of Turtle Press' latest catalog. Turned to pg 11 because I saw the heading "hapkido". There on the page are four DVD-s for sale courtesy of "Grandmaster Myung Yong Kim, founder of Hapkido Jin Jung Kwan and Grandmaster Chang Soo Lee, head of Hapkido Jin Jung Kwan" (sic). Now, what is a person to make of this. Well considering that the DVD-s include "some of their top instuctors" a person could be excused for reading fast and thinking that here are a couple of founding individuals of the art of Hapkido as opposed to just one more in a line of people who started their own kwan or "study group". It also doesn't help that the press goes on to say that you will be learning from " the headmaster, founder and demonstration team members of this dynamic Korean art." Once again, read fast and declinated according to the specifics, it could easily be interpreted in ones' mind that one will "learn from the head master of this Korean art, learn from the founder of this Korean art, and learn from the demostration team members of this Korean art", yes? Not only that but press goes on to intimate that if one were to purchase both vol 1&2 "....this series presents a complete self-defense series." (sic). Sure would have been nice if someone could have told me that my entire 20 Hapkido career could well have been encapsulated on two DVD-s in 75 techniques or less.
Please know that none of this a commentary on your posts. I share this only because like anyone else I would like to see the integrity of the art I practice regarded, thats all. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Is the discussion about:
1. Someone studying art A at one school and art B at another
2. Someone talking TKD that includes 'Hapkido' as part of the curriculum? By 'Hapkido' I mean learns 6 techniques per kup, doesn't practice falling, and never talks about the water principle or circular motion, etc.
1. Someone studying art A at one school and art B at another
2. Someone talking TKD that includes 'Hapkido' as part of the curriculum? By 'Hapkido' I mean learns 6 techniques per kup, doesn't practice falling, and never talks about the water principle or circular motion, etc.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
For me the discussion focuses on the blurring of lines. Life dictates that lines tend to blur with time. Do we accept this and sit by passively, do we pro-actively take advantage for our own personal gain, or do we work to maintain the integrity of the curriculum as it represents the supporting tenents as much as is given into our power to do? FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
I have yet to see a kick or hand technique in TKD that I have not learned in Hapkido - can I claim I know TKD. It kind of irks me when people find out I practice hapkido and say "I took TKD and we learned hapkido - you know joint locks and stuff"
I stopped by a studio in NYC that advertised TKD and Hapkido. I told the Master that I held rank in Hapkido (1st Dan at the Time) and could I stay and watch the class. "No - we only do Hapkido on Tuesday - you should go now."
On the other hand we have a 2nd Dan TKD who is testing for 1st Dan soon. He started at white belt and went through the whole curriculum. That I can applaud and support.
Brian
I stopped by a studio in NYC that advertised TKD and Hapkido. I told the Master that I held rank in Hapkido (1st Dan at the Time) and could I stay and watch the class. "No - we only do Hapkido on Tuesday - you should go now."
On the other hand we have a 2nd Dan TKD who is testing for 1st Dan soon. He started at white belt and went through the whole curriculum. That I can applaud and support.
Brian
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Brian:
Right on the money, and I will even go a step farther. When I talk about what I teach and practice I make a poiont of saying Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido. I don't pretend that ALL the Hapkido arts are the same. For instance, I know that I do not teach a KUK SOOL model despite my interest in Chinese traditions. I do not teach MU SOOL KWAN despite their connection with the WHF. I don't purport to teach MU YE KWAN despite Hal Whalens' past experience with GM Myung. These are all different approaches. And saying that I could teach these approaches simply because I can teach YMK Hapkido is an unfair representation. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Right on the money, and I will even go a step farther. When I talk about what I teach and practice I make a poiont of saying Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido. I don't pretend that ALL the Hapkido arts are the same. For instance, I know that I do not teach a KUK SOOL model despite my interest in Chinese traditions. I do not teach MU SOOL KWAN despite their connection with the WHF. I don't purport to teach MU YE KWAN despite Hal Whalens' past experience with GM Myung. These are all different approaches. And saying that I could teach these approaches simply because I can teach YMK Hapkido is an unfair representation. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
W
whalen
Guest
glad2bhere said:
Bruce,
Mu Ye Kwan was the name of our Dojang years ago, The kwan I have been a member of since 1976 is Chun-do-kwan. Under Master Yu, Chun He .
Just wanted to clarify so there were NO misinterpretations
Hal Whalen
