Fraud, or Just don't know better...
- Thread starter iron_ox
- Start date
M
MDFJ
Guest
Disco said:
Mike, Thank you for your post, and I appreciate your kind words. I agree with you about the suit
, I designed it, made it, and wore it for about six months, mainly only on special occasions as a sort of dress uniform.. I started to think it was a little too "showy" So, I now wear a simple Black suit... Your apology is gratefully and graciously accepted, I hold no grudges or ill feelings.
I know it is easy to judge a book by it's cover, I would be lying if I said I have never been guilty of it myself. I am pleased that you were willing to open the book and have a read with an open mind even if our opinions are not always the same. If the other members here are of the same character as yourself, I would be very pleased and Honoured to continue to join in on discussions here.
Thank you again.
Respectfully
Marc
M
MDFJ
Guest
doc clean said:
Doc,
Thank you for your message.
It would be a very long story to go into all of my reasons..
In short, I was teaching two different styles at the time, I suffered with political situations as have many, and was frustrated with what was happening not just to me, but more importantly to my students...
I had spent a significant portion of my life studying various martial art styles from many different instructors and masters, I felt all had much to offer but none that completely gave me what I wanted to give my students..
So, as with anyone who develops their own style, whether they are Internationally reognised grandmaster or an obscure church hall instructor, I wanted to share what I had learnt with others in the way I believed in... I do not want international fame and fortune, I simply want to teach what I passionately believe in.. I don't for one second believe that my way is better than anything else.. Neither do i think (or other Martial artists that know me) that it is any-way of a lesser quality.. right or wrong... It's just my way..
I created the forms/hyung and complete Syllabus and had it sanctioned and approved by the people I respected (my own instructors & masters) and the groups I affiliated with, and the story began....
Marc
W
whalen
Guest
Welcome aboard Marc. You impressed me you are the first person to write a post longer than Bruce ha-ha Just kidding.
As someone that has been in Hapkido longer than out of Hapkido, My ears perk up when i here of a new founder of a new system where Hapkido is in the name.
Do your students really care what you call what you teach ? If it is able to save their life when someone is trying to slash their throat " no survival comes first " then they will thank you for teaching something that will save their life this is part of being an instructor. Most students do not care what association you belong to or whom you are affiliated with You are the person that molds an changes their life's.
But choosing the name you did you will receive criticism it is part what happens .So be prepared it comes with the Job.
You do deserve credit and respect for having " The Gut's To defend In what you believe" :asian:
Hal whalen
As someone that has been in Hapkido longer than out of Hapkido, My ears perk up when i here of a new founder of a new system where Hapkido is in the name.
Do your students really care what you call what you teach ? If it is able to save their life when someone is trying to slash their throat " no survival comes first " then they will thank you for teaching something that will save their life this is part of being an instructor. Most students do not care what association you belong to or whom you are affiliated with You are the person that molds an changes their life's.
But choosing the name you did you will receive criticism it is part what happens .So be prepared it comes with the Job.
You do deserve credit and respect for having " The Gut's To defend In what you believe" :asian:
Hal whalen
M
MDFJ
Guest
whalen said:
Dear Master Hal Whalen
Thank you for your kind words, Although I have never met you personally, I know you are a very well respected member of the Hapkido community.
I totally agree with your point about the name and affiliation being a little irrelevant, in the same way people say "it's on the mat that counts" well wether it's on the mat, or on the street in a situation I hope and wished people never found themselves in... It is the value of what is taught which matters most.
I apologise to Bruce if I have stolen a record for post-length, it was quite long..and I apologise to anyone that fell asleep reading it..
I will continue on with bite-size contributions..
I knew full well that by walking my own path I would receive a mix of opinions, and specifically with my choice of name, I knew some would accept and some would criticise whichever name I had chosen..
I personally stand strong on my own beliefs, and always try to have openness and respect for everyone else's...
Thank you again
Marc
OP
OP
iron_ox
Black Belt
Hello all,
Thank you for some clarification to your rank. I still have no idea why you call what you do Hapkido. Hapkido is not a clearing house word, it is the name of an art. I mean, hey, feel free to do whatever you wish, but in my opinion, it is not Hapkido. Again, I say ALL this with due respect, but Hapkido is derived from the Choi - Ji - tradition (if you trained as far as the Ji tradition) - there is no such thing as "Hapkido Arts" this is an invention of another member here that tries to prove that Hapkido existed prior to Choi with Chinese influence, but has never been able to substanciate a single claim.
The original intent of this thread to have opinions of members about peope using the term Hapkido when they do not have extensive backgrounds in it, claiming their own styles, etc. Personally, I think it would have been great to call what you do Marc Defense, or whatever, but the label Hapkido has virtually nothing to do with the background you submitted. Would you feel comfortable calling what you do Shotokan? Of course not, because it represents a form of martial arts you are not graded in. To have a second dan from one Hapkido group and start your own Hapkido style is inconceivable to me because you simply do not have to prerequisite background in Hapkido, the art of Choi (or Ji, however you see it).
Now, you do not call what you do Jung Shin Kwan, but Jung Shin Hapkido - meaning you have formulated "a new" Hapkido. Now, again with all respect, I doubt it. Even Ji Han Jae didn't do this until he had trained in Hapkido for some 31 years (1949 -1980 advent of Sin Moo - I believe that is correct). You received a second dan this year.
Why didn't you train (or associate) with one of the many Hapkido organizations in the UK? There is Choi traditional - in International Hapkido (was GBHA - UK's first Hapkido organization - 1971), the KHF is represented, as well as some smaller quasi independent groups with links to instructors here in the states. Why did you choose to link up with a travelling instructor instead?
OK enough here, again this is said with all respect to you as a person Mr. Jones, but as a person with 25 years of my life so far invested in Hapkido, I am tenacious when I here the name associated with other training. Sorry if I offended you.
Thank you for some clarification to your rank. I still have no idea why you call what you do Hapkido. Hapkido is not a clearing house word, it is the name of an art. I mean, hey, feel free to do whatever you wish, but in my opinion, it is not Hapkido. Again, I say ALL this with due respect, but Hapkido is derived from the Choi - Ji - tradition (if you trained as far as the Ji tradition) - there is no such thing as "Hapkido Arts" this is an invention of another member here that tries to prove that Hapkido existed prior to Choi with Chinese influence, but has never been able to substanciate a single claim.
The original intent of this thread to have opinions of members about peope using the term Hapkido when they do not have extensive backgrounds in it, claiming their own styles, etc. Personally, I think it would have been great to call what you do Marc Defense, or whatever, but the label Hapkido has virtually nothing to do with the background you submitted. Would you feel comfortable calling what you do Shotokan? Of course not, because it represents a form of martial arts you are not graded in. To have a second dan from one Hapkido group and start your own Hapkido style is inconceivable to me because you simply do not have to prerequisite background in Hapkido, the art of Choi (or Ji, however you see it).
Now, you do not call what you do Jung Shin Kwan, but Jung Shin Hapkido - meaning you have formulated "a new" Hapkido. Now, again with all respect, I doubt it. Even Ji Han Jae didn't do this until he had trained in Hapkido for some 31 years (1949 -1980 advent of Sin Moo - I believe that is correct). You received a second dan this year.
Why didn't you train (or associate) with one of the many Hapkido organizations in the UK? There is Choi traditional - in International Hapkido (was GBHA - UK's first Hapkido organization - 1971), the KHF is represented, as well as some smaller quasi independent groups with links to instructors here in the states. Why did you choose to link up with a travelling instructor instead?
OK enough here, again this is said with all respect to you as a person Mr. Jones, but as a person with 25 years of my life so far invested in Hapkido, I am tenacious when I here the name associated with other training. Sorry if I offended you.
K
kwanjang
Guest
Hello Marc:
Thank you for sharing with us your convictions. I thought your letter was a refreshing alternative from what I have seen so many others do... sling more mud. Like Hal said, you may wish you had called your art different. I am sure that he is correct when he says you will attract more criticism. How you deal with it makes all the difference, and so far your approach is an indication that you have absorbed that part of the arts which eludes many.
Kevin:
Please call me Rudy. Reason for my "handle" on this forum is that I had no ideas on how to sign up on this forum when I first joined in. Regarding your question. Yes, I do try and look into the background of people who join NKMAA; however, I'll be the first one to admit that this is a formidable task that most often does not result in clear and convincing evidence.
I could, like Bruce seems to do, spend countless hours of research, but that is just not me. I love to teach and I love to help people; but, research is just not my bag, it is simply too time consuming. Hence, I do rely heavily on my gut feeling and whatever information I can glean. That is precisely why I am convinced that however admirable the idea of a super org may be... the reality is that it is VERY difficult to implement.
As far as trying to "be kind" to those whom I cannot accept. I just feel there is no need for me to get heavy on anyone. Whatever I have to say to them probably means nothing to them anyways, so I would just waste my time. At my age, time is too valuable to waste on trying to convert folks who are bent on obtaining more worthless paper. I DO however applaud those who are willing (and perhaps more able) to spend such time, and I DO whatever I can to assist in your worthy cause.
Thank you for sharing with us your convictions. I thought your letter was a refreshing alternative from what I have seen so many others do... sling more mud. Like Hal said, you may wish you had called your art different. I am sure that he is correct when he says you will attract more criticism. How you deal with it makes all the difference, and so far your approach is an indication that you have absorbed that part of the arts which eludes many.
Kevin:
Please call me Rudy. Reason for my "handle" on this forum is that I had no ideas on how to sign up on this forum when I first joined in. Regarding your question. Yes, I do try and look into the background of people who join NKMAA; however, I'll be the first one to admit that this is a formidable task that most often does not result in clear and convincing evidence.
I could, like Bruce seems to do, spend countless hours of research, but that is just not me. I love to teach and I love to help people; but, research is just not my bag, it is simply too time consuming. Hence, I do rely heavily on my gut feeling and whatever information I can glean. That is precisely why I am convinced that however admirable the idea of a super org may be... the reality is that it is VERY difficult to implement.
As far as trying to "be kind" to those whom I cannot accept. I just feel there is no need for me to get heavy on anyone. Whatever I have to say to them probably means nothing to them anyways, so I would just waste my time. At my age, time is too valuable to waste on trying to convert folks who are bent on obtaining more worthless paper. I DO however applaud those who are willing (and perhaps more able) to spend such time, and I DO whatever I can to assist in your worthy cause.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Folks:
I'm sorry to be so dense about this string, but I am having avery difficult time getting things to add-up and I am not sure if its me and my view of things or if its other people. A little help would be appreciated.
Seems that Marcs' website precipitated the discussion. I could use some help here.
a.) What is it that makes what Marc is doing "hapkido" other than simply selecting and applying the name. For instance, Rudy teaches Kong Shin Bup which is arguably related to the Choi tradition through the Kuk Sool line. I don't think he actually identifies it as Hapkido though my sense is that he could easily make the connectuion if he chose. Am I to understand Marc has some similar heritage in his background?
b.) Have we been able to organize some overall criteria for determining if an art created from scratch can claim the label "hapkido"? By this I mean that if, say according to what I said in a previous post the criteria of a person scavenged from other arts would coincidentally abide by all Three Principles of Hapkido, would that art automatically have a claim to being Hapkido?
c.) Putting Marc to one side, were a person to simply assume the label "hapkido" because of name recognition and leniency in accountability what might other practitioners of more "legit" hapkido arts have for recourse?
Anyone? Comments?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I'm sorry to be so dense about this string, but I am having avery difficult time getting things to add-up and I am not sure if its me and my view of things or if its other people. A little help would be appreciated.
Seems that Marcs' website precipitated the discussion. I could use some help here.
a.) What is it that makes what Marc is doing "hapkido" other than simply selecting and applying the name. For instance, Rudy teaches Kong Shin Bup which is arguably related to the Choi tradition through the Kuk Sool line. I don't think he actually identifies it as Hapkido though my sense is that he could easily make the connectuion if he chose. Am I to understand Marc has some similar heritage in his background?
b.) Have we been able to organize some overall criteria for determining if an art created from scratch can claim the label "hapkido"? By this I mean that if, say according to what I said in a previous post the criteria of a person scavenged from other arts would coincidentally abide by all Three Principles of Hapkido, would that art automatically have a claim to being Hapkido?
c.) Putting Marc to one side, were a person to simply assume the label "hapkido" because of name recognition and leniency in accountability what might other practitioners of more "legit" hapkido arts have for recourse?
Anyone? Comments?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
M
MDFJ
Guest
Kevin,
I thank you for your post and for your PM personal message, I accept that your intention was not to offend me personally and I gratefully and graciously accept your apology.
Rudy, Kwang Jang
I thank you for your Kind Words, Like with Master Whalen, I know you are a very Highly Regarded Master and your very elequant post was very much appreciated.
My very best regards to all.
Marc
I thank you for your post and for your PM personal message, I accept that your intention was not to offend me personally and I gratefully and graciously accept your apology.
Rudy, Kwang Jang
I thank you for your Kind Words, Like with Master Whalen, I know you are a very Highly Regarded Master and your very elequant post was very much appreciated.
My very best regards to all.
Marc
OP
OP
iron_ox
Black Belt
Hello all,
Will anyone that has the most current issue of TaeKwonDo Times (the current one has some Kuk Sool Won guy on the front cover) - please read the srticle about Klaus Schumacher on Oh Do Kwan Hapkido and tell me if I'm reading that right or what?
I am going to reread it before firing off another post...
Will anyone that has the most current issue of TaeKwonDo Times (the current one has some Kuk Sool Won guy on the front cover) - please read the srticle about Klaus Schumacher on Oh Do Kwan Hapkido and tell me if I'm reading that right or what?
I am going to reread it before firing off another post...
W
whalen
Guest
iron_ox said:
I was hoping someone brought this up I read the article twice to make sure it wasn't my imagination
Does TKDT even read what is submitted to them ? what you have to do is go to this guys website it is as good as the article.
If my memory serves me correct this guy was involved with KiHAP run by Ed Annabelle (spelled Wrong). And some other people in one of those you promote me and i promote you meetings.
The question is Where did he come from ?
Hal Whalen
American HKD
Brown Belt
Hal
I think Ed Annibale learned from Schumacher for a bit but I don't know any details.
I think Ed Annibale learned from Schumacher for a bit but I don't know any details.
S
SmellyMonkey
Guest
Holy crap! This guy is 11th degree!
Here is a picture of him showing off his fighting skills. (Looks like he and Prof. Marty Cale are great buds.) http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/usmapics/thumbs/usma0032.jpg
Here's his website (you'd think such a high-ranking super-grandmaster would not use a free website service like angelfire.)
http://www.angelfire.com/ks/wmal/page46.html
Here is a picture of him showing off his fighting skills. (Looks like he and Prof. Marty Cale are great buds.) http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/usmapics/thumbs/usma0032.jpg
Here's his website (you'd think such a high-ranking super-grandmaster would not use a free website service like angelfire.)
http://www.angelfire.com/ks/wmal/page46.html
D
Disco
Guest
I really didn't intend to delve into this subject, but after looking at this site and especially the uniform, I couldn't help my self. :mst:
http://www.angelfire.com/ks/wmal/page19.html
Not sure about the technique being shown.... Water principle or Give me your Cheetos principle?..... :idunno:
http://www.angelfire.com/ks/wmal/page19.html
Not sure about the technique being shown.... Water principle or Give me your Cheetos principle?..... :idunno:
B
Black Belt FC
Guest
Greetings,
Saw the website, credentials, uniforms, ranking and every other thing that is questionable .................SCARY
Saw the website, credentials, uniforms, ranking and every other thing that is questionable .................SCARY
W
whalen
Guest
Thats the thing if you are the founder you can call your self any rank you want, Its a good thing some of the others do not know about this.It is in the "founder manual Bylaws" page 7.
Did you know there are more 10th Dans living in America than, in japan korea, Okinawa combined we are the tenth dan capital of the world and all this time those of us whom took the time to travel to korea wasted our time. I am sure we should have saved a lot of money and trained with some of these 10th dans. Most of us would be 10th dans by now.........
Lets all agree on a new post listing all of the 10th dans in your area ?
Hal Whalen
artyon:
Did you know there are more 10th Dans living in America than, in japan korea, Okinawa combined we are the tenth dan capital of the world and all this time those of us whom took the time to travel to korea wasted our time. I am sure we should have saved a lot of money and trained with some of these 10th dans. Most of us would be 10th dans by now.........
Lets all agree on a new post listing all of the 10th dans in your area ?
Hal Whalen
artyon:
OP
OP
iron_ox
Black Belt
Hello all,
I spent some time reading the article in TaeKwonDo Times again, as well as following some of the links here - I've known about Schumacher for quite some time. I had gone to his site and was also amazed at how all the listed certification sites he spoke of either came back to him, OR didn't seem to have him registered at all. Notice that the certificates are almost unreadable - the only signature that is legible is from a "John Smith" - very creative huh?
Love the pictures in the article - what kind of sword work is that? Notice that the sword that the student is weilding is one of those super cheap Pakistani stamp blades available on ebay for $5, and he looks like he's using a Tai Chi sword -
Funny enough, he claims to incorporate all the techniques of Choi - that would be better than his best students - who never learned them all...maybe we should inquire how many that is...
We are discussing some minimum standards for different grades - how about a minimum standard by which Hapkido is defined?
I spent some time reading the article in TaeKwonDo Times again, as well as following some of the links here - I've known about Schumacher for quite some time. I had gone to his site and was also amazed at how all the listed certification sites he spoke of either came back to him, OR didn't seem to have him registered at all. Notice that the certificates are almost unreadable - the only signature that is legible is from a "John Smith" - very creative huh?
Love the pictures in the article - what kind of sword work is that? Notice that the sword that the student is weilding is one of those super cheap Pakistani stamp blades available on ebay for $5, and he looks like he's using a Tai Chi sword -
Funny enough, he claims to incorporate all the techniques of Choi - that would be better than his best students - who never learned them all...maybe we should inquire how many that is...
We are discussing some minimum standards for different grades - how about a minimum standard by which Hapkido is defined?
