Four Elements of Leverage

[mj-hi-yah]

So, Please share with me, and the rest of the MT people what you believe the elements of leverage are and or any additional information you care to share about your working knowledge of leverage?

Ok it was my choice to attempt to dodge the bullets ...:snipe2: and taking a bullet here's really not so bad because there is always something to be learned - in this case the lesson is perhaps more about human nature than science.

Sumdumguy I'm sorry for not quite getting what you were looking for. I went with the or any additional information you care to share about your working knowledge of leverage ...to me the best way is through example - that's just the way I decided to answer it because of the or option in your post. It's funny to me because the elements of leverage you were looking for specifically are seriously part of my son's fourth grade science curriculum ...it's nothing new, and as I'm certain we've all completed the fourth grade we are all quite capable of understanding these concepts. Kenpo2dabone and Mekugi did a great job of using the example to show the elements within it. To me this is how information should be exchanged one person's thoughts sparks another's. I agree with Pete that information exchange is the purpose of these forums.

Rainman you make an excellent point about moving on to higher level thinking. Would it not be better to take it in that more constructive direction? :asian:

LOL I appreciate the recognition on your part Sumdumguy and thank you for the permission to say...in light of the exchanges that took place as a result...this is all very silly:boing1: !

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:

 

[Rainman]

Rainman you make an excellent point about moving on to higher level thinking. Would it not be better to take it in that more constructive direction?

It really depends on the questions being asked as to what direction you can take the conversation. To say that lever classification is silly and fourth grade kills the necessary process needed for further examination or the different ways levers are used and can be used in AK. Would it not have suited you better to delve deeper into the concepts before writing them off as beneath you and better suited for children?

Once the elements are defined then one can move to step B. There is a process and a particular way of learning and moving forward. Without the process the ability to formulate with a particular cancelleation in mind is lost. You get people using the wrong lever in the right place and their techniqe does not quite work the way it is designed to. With that being said all the other what if scenarios now have to be addressed because the lock or whatnot did not do what it was supposed to. In my experience this can be avoided by simply having a working knowlede of what levers work best for a given position. That includes your position and that of the opponent.

 

[Rainman]

whoa... somebody's a little cranky~

first, some other guy's already said all the techniques employ lever and fulcrum...so you're a bit redundant... the examples that were given help the reader visualize the application.

Redundent or re-enforcing? Since you know so much where is the fulcrum in sword of destruction?

lastly, if you don't like my posts... don't read 'em! y'aint paying for 'em...

what happened to the learning and sharing you were just touting? LOL

and if you find people can't follow direction, don't blame it on the ignorance of the world... look within, and improve your writing skills... communications 101

I didn't say all people, basically you. You are fighting the information instead of asking questions as to how and why we use these methods.
Ask a question get an answer right? Did you flunk communications 101 and tell everyone you passed?

The idea is to stay on point and not meander all about- it is the difference between a structured approach which AK is and loose interpretations which give way to the enormity of what if.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

It really depends on the questions being asked as to what direction you can take the conversation. To say that lever classification is silly and fourth grade kills the necessary process needed for further examination or the different ways levers are used and can be used in AK. Would it not have suited you better to delve deeper into the concepts before writing them off as beneath you and better suited for children?

I am really glad you asked. :asian: Let me clear something up for you. I definitely don't think that lever classification is silly. In terms of Kenpo I take it very seriously and joined this conversation because I need to teach it. I think all the personal attacks here are silly though and to a lesser degree the way the information was being sought perhaps. Sumdumguy thinks outside the box and I appreciate that about him, but as it turns out he had specific answers in mind. I just needed to see where he wanted to go with it all, as this is his thread. I now see the point he was trying to make. I didn't mean to belittle the concepts just simply point out that so far what has been discussed is in fact very elementary. I was just stating a fact. No joke, my son learned these concepts this year as a part of a unit on simple machines. While most of us have not revisited the fourth grade curriculum in a long time, we are all in my opinion very capable of understanding these concepts. That's my point. Define it and we can move on. I guess I'd like to see the discussion evolve in the way you prescribe below:

Once the elements are defined then one can move to step B.

I could not agree with you more! :asian: This is what I very much would like to see done here.

There is a process and a particular way of learning and moving forward. Without the process the ability to formulate with a particular cancelleation in mind is lost. You get people using the wrong lever in the right place and their techniqe does not quite work the way it is designed to. With that being said all the other what if scenarios now have to be addressed because the lock or whatnot did not do what it was supposed to. In my experience this can be avoided by simply having a working knowlede of what levers work best for a given position. That includes your position and that of the opponent.

Thank you. Yes. This is very good and constructive. It's the start of what I was hoping for when I clicked onto this thread.:asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

One more thing Rainman...I was just about to log out when I saw that it's your birthday today.:cheers:

 

[pete]

and now back to our show...

thinking of mj's example of glancing lance, the use of two (or more?) levers in tandem increases the control you have on your would-be attacker. take glancing spear, for instance, we have a lever used to apply an elbow lock and another lever used to pull back the fingertips. this allows you to control the attacker, disturbs his balance, and open targets to complete the technique.

the use of levers in other techniques are not as explicit... sometimes it's by applying a knee check as a fulcrum to disturb the attacker's balance when striking with a left chop to the neck (oooh, should i say handsword) :wavey:

so this gives 3 different methods of using a lever: push, pull, and strike....
are there others?

pete

 

[sumdumguy]

With a great desire to just end this freak'n thread! I will ignore all of the crap, and move forward. Let's stay on topic though?
One of the very points that I was not trying to make is that this information is in fact learned early on in our lives, we do not often times re-visit our past to see how it pertains to the present.
Pete: No, my grammer is not great and my punctuation even worse, deal with it! I'm not here to win any prizes. I am here to share information, or learn something about Kenpoists in general.

All of these elements are taught in the system, but not from a scientific/physics perspective (or whatever you feel like calling it.) The examples I am talking about are things like trapping: a 2nd class lever, "mace of aggression". Locking: this can be a 1st or third class lever, choking: again a 2nd class lever, "The grasp of death". It is obvious that you all can apply leverage, if you have any understanding of the techniques in the system and practice them at all. Can you extrapolate it from those particular techniques and use it with the full working knowledge of all the elements of leverage? :idunno:

Four basic elements of leverage: fulcrum, lever, effort, load.
So, now when we give examples of the use of leverage, let's put these elements in there proper places in describing the application and understanding which class of lever we are using.

That's enough for now, I eagerly await some Positive insight or answers.
:asian:

 

[sumdumguy]

and now back to our show...

thinking of mj's example of glancing lance, the use of two (or more?) levers in tandem increases the control you have on your would-be attacker. take glancing spear, for instance, we have a lever used to apply an elbow lock and another lever used to pull back the fingertips. this allows you to control the attacker, disturbs his balance, and open targets to complete the technique.

so this gives 3 different methods of using a lever: push, pull, and strike....
are there others?

pete

Almost, that's what i'm getting at here. They are classified as, class 1 class 2 and class 3. The relationship of the lever, fulcrum, effort and load is what changes this classification. MJ's example is actually using, (if I am right as to where she is at in the technique) a 3rd class lever. Glancing spear on the other hand uses a concept or "term" that is not currently in the system (popularly). The application is using a 3rd class lever for the arm bar portion and I'm am not sure of your application to the fingers, I know that "gripping talon" finger lock is using a 1st class lever.
:asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

MJ's example is actually using, (if I am right as to where she is at in the technique) a 3rd class lever.

Thanks for sticking with it. It's a great topic! :asian: My initial thought in the example I gave was that it was a second-class lever with the pull back motion of the fingers being the effort, the neck muscles being the resistance and the pivot point of the wrist at the base of the forearm where it presses on the shoulder being the fulcrum at the end of the lever. This type of lever gives us a gain in force like that of a can opener. That's what I was thinking, but I'd be interested to see if, and how, anyone might see it otherwise.

MJ

 

[sumdumguy]

Thanks for sticking with it. It's a great topic! :asian: My initial thought in the example I gave was that it was a second-class lever with the pull back motion of the fingers being the effort, the neck muscles being the resistance and the pivot point of the wrist at the base of the forearm where it presses on the shoulder being the fulcrum at the end of the lever. This type of lever gives us a gain in force like that of a can opener. That's what I was thinking, but I'd be interested to see if, and how, anyone might see it otherwise.

MJ

MJ,
It really depends on which mass or part of mass you are trying to move. Let's look at "the grip of death". In the technique where you hook the chin, over the shoulder and pull the opponent backward to expose the next target, the forearm should act as the fulcrum (on the shoulder) the arm is the actual lever with the effort being at the elbow (yours) or shoulder. The load, (opponent) for this application is the head. With this fulcrum effort relationship we have a class 1 lever, like a see saw. Now, if we change the intent of the action from trying to move the head to moving the body around the head, or dropping the body straight to the floor (vertical) then we are applying a class 2 lever like that of a wheel barrow.
Does that make sense?
:asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

MJ,
It really depends on which mass or part of mass you are trying to move. Let's look at "the grip of death". In the technique where you hook the chin, over the shoulder and pull the opponent backward to expose the next target, the forearm should act as the fulcrum (on the shoulder) the arm is the actual lever with the effort being at the elbow (yours) or shoulder. The load, (opponent) for this application is the head. With this fulcrum effort relationship we have a class 1 lever, like a see saw. Now, if we change the intent of the action from trying to move the head to moving the body around the head, or dropping the body straight to the floor (vertical) then we are applying a class 2 lever like that of a wheel barrow.
Does that make sense?
:asian:

Yes...great example! I know the technique and can see the application you describe. I like your idea for changing intent and therefore the tool or type of lever we need to get the job done. This would be a worthwhile exercise to work on in class!

I look forward to seeing if anyone else has examples to share!

Respectfully,
MJ:asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I think the type of lever that is being discussed was a type one lever, an "effort" based lever, used to gain mechanical advantage over an object. In this case, the fulcrum is also the stress point, and moving a "load" is not necissarily the ends to a means. Since you may not be trying to move the body itself with the lever, but stress the joint, the physics of the lever have now changed. Knowing how many pounds of pressure can it stand before breaking, the stress it can take and the proper angle from which it should be addressed to gain the mechanical advantage in the most efficient manner are now entering on the scene.

So when you place your arm directly under an outstretched arm at the elbow, and then apply a downward force, the effect will life the body, however what is lifting the body is in fact "pain" and not mechanics.

In the case where the knee is placed into the back, the fulcrum is yet again the stress point and it is not designed to move a load put to maximize stress at the point of contact.

Hope that makes sense..


BTW.....
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~pe/exs190web/190kines2.htm
is an awesome resource for kinesiology.

You see, finally someone has upgraded the conversation, thank you. If a person is launching a right backnuckle at your head and you block it slightly above the elbow with a right outward, your block now becomes the fulcrum, but where is the load, and why does it work? Too many silly questions from those that suffer from paralysis of analysis. I can't figure why anyone would bother teaching what class of lever you're using when discussing Kenpo, it's irrelevant and nonsensical.

DarK LorD

 

[Michael Billings]

I disagree. It might not be USEful for you, but not USEless for the rest of us. I personally like the topic and the knowledge, especially since my background is in no way scientific. But part of Kenpo is applied Kinesiology, and kowledge, however shared is useful to me .. and obviously to others. Your detracting comment, I only have to assume, means that it is not of interest to you. So don't participate in this thread. You have a lot to offer in others that is helpful to lots of students, and you have helped spread your instructor's name in places never heard. One of my Texas students was asking about Mr. Tatum tonight, in a very positive way.

Anyhow, back on topic.

-Michael

 

[Bill Lear]

I disagree. It might not be USEful for you, but not USEless for the rest of us. I personally like the topic and the knowledge, especially since my background is in no way scientific. But part of Kenpo is applied Kinesiology, and kowledge, however shared is useful to me .. and obviously to others. Your detracting comment, I only have to assume, means that it is not of interest to you. So don't participate in this thread. You have a lot to offer in others that is helpful to lots of students, and you have helped spread your instructor's name in places never heard. One of my Texas students was asking about Mr. Tatum tonight, in a very positive way.

Anyhow, back on topic.

-Michael

I agree with Clyde on this one. I think it's kinda crazy to over do it on the verbage. I don't need to know about the semi-circular paths one's blood cells take while extending their arm in a linear fashion to deliver a reverse punch. Nor do I need to know what a type I, II, or III lever is in order to get the idea of leverage accross to my students. (This kind of thing causes the Paralysis of Analysis).

On another note... Mr. Billings... I think Clyde should be free to comment on the subject, this is a discussion board, right? I mean... Do we have to agree on everything? And, if we disagree... Do we have to politely hold our toungues without voicing our opinions?

What would Martial Talk be if we didn't have people (politely) arguing different points? I'm of the opinion that it would become nothing more than an online back scratching party. Wouldn't that be sad? What would we be learning here then?

Sorry about the rant, but I wanted to say something. :asian:

 

[sumdumguy]

Well, your right there! Billy. you are all entitled to your opinions, and opinions are like A!@holes everyone has one. Thanks for sharing! Oh, you too Clyde.

 

[Seig]

ADMIN NOTE

Keep the discussion polite and respectful.
Seig
MT Operational Admin

 

[Rainman]

One more thing Rainman...I was just about to log out when I saw that it's your birthday today.:cheers:

Thank you MJ

 

[sumdumguy]

Thank you all for the negative cp's. I see that some can dish it, but can not take it....

Paralysis of analysis happens on the mat, were not on the mat. If we were I wouldn't be discussing this I would be applying it. Big difference!!! This is the discussion of theory, concept, principle, bla bla bla. If all you can do is leave little comments that have no relativity to the post then why bother at all? It's your game not mine, I would rather be on the mat proving my theories and working principles.
I can see now that my efforts here were in vein, simply to much "analysis" for some "motion" based kenpoists to handle I guess? Pack it up Mr. Moderator, close the thread cause I'm done!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have nothing more to offer or detract from this place of no information exchange.


La ti da La ti da
artyon:

 

[Brother John]

Dark Kenpo ????, If I wanted someone elses interpretation of this I would have asked for links to websites. At the risk of loosing the great priviledge of participating in this forum I will keep the other comments to myself.Thanks for playing. :boing2:

I am simply looking for individual's interpretations and insights into levers and leverage to see what the general populace's understanding of this tool/mechanism is..... I already have all the crap on the link you posted thanks!
artyon:

OK sumDumguy-
Being snide with others is rude. Really rude. You set the tone, others kept it...no great shock there huh? Now you are taking up your ball and going home because OTHERS can dish but not take it?
Not very fitting with a man of your apparent intelligence.
Ignore your detractors, state what you want to state and move on. Rise above it.

Your Brother
John

 

[Rainman]

OK sumDumguy-
Being snide with others is rude. Really rude. You set the tone, others kept it...no great shock there huh? Now you are taking up your ball and going home because OTHERS can dish but not take it?
Not very fitting with a man of your apparent intelligence.
Ignore your detractors, state what you want to state and move on. Rise above it.

Your Brother
John

He is talking about the rep points- I got a slew of them, some neg. some pos... I just look at it if I get one person who can use the material then I have done something worth my time. I could care less about the negative people post- they fight the information rather than following the process. The process is just as important because it allows you to become self correcting. There is obviously a time to analize, the time to act/reactis on the mat, this is the written word and the only real time for analyis except at the end of a physical workout unless being coached through something.

I have been on the net since 95 looking at stuff so I will take my shots and give them right back until I get bored which is about after 2 times of each person venting then analysis begins again.

I would suggest though that if the subject is interesting to you to ask a question rather than critique... If you gang up on people they naturally become defensive, after all is that not what part of our art teaches?

Your bro
Rainman