In the end are all Martial Arts formless?

[Touch Of Death]

Form makes formlessness possible.

 

[Juany118]

No we are on the same track. You follow good form. So you can go where the mountain dictates.

In a fight your good form lets you go where the fight takes you.

Agreed, the thing I am addressing is that I think some of the people who dis traditional arts miss that we aren't married to the forms like they are choreography; "oh I must only Pak this kind of punch THEN I must follow with a palm strike, then I must Tan that round house.... I have spoken to people who honestly think that is what forms and Kata are about sadly

As you state, knowing the forms well simply allow us to properly execute the forms as the FIGHT dictates, not some blacked out footsteps on the ground.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed, the thing I am addressing is that I think some of the people who dis traditional arts miss that we aren't married to the forms like they are choreography; "oh I must only Pak this kind of punch THEN I must follow with a palm strike, then I must Tan that round house.... I have spoken to people who honestly think that is what forms and Kata are about sadly

As you state, knowing the forms well simply allow us to properly execute the forms as the FIGHT dictates, not some blacked out footsteps on the ground.

As far as form/kata goes. I dis the concept when it is trained backwards.

Which is trying to make the fight subscribe to the form. Not the form subscribing to the fight.

 

[Tames D]

OMG. Some serious overthinking going on. It's just fighting.

 

[Juany118]

OMG. Some serious overthinking going on. It's just fighting.

There is no such thing as "just fighting" outside of training, in real life. Since 1991 I have had to fight for my life in BDUs and then blue more than once. Just fighting? If you can say that you have never faced a real fight and, tbh, good for you because I wish to God I didn't know the difference.

PS... my definition of a real fight? A guy is slamming you in the balls repeatedly so he can take your gun. You have him goose necked, robbing his brain of O2 so he doesn't get your gun and kill your fellows. You win, he looses, but when he is finally cuffed you curl up into a ball finally because you permit the pain to effect you. That is a real fight, that you apparently dismiss in your arrogance.

There is no "just fighting". There is life, and there is death. If you are thinking, outside of class, that a real street fight is anything else, then you have never been in a real street fight because irl, on the street, they want to maim, cripple or kill you. Tbh they don't care which at the time, they simply act and worry about the consequence later. Period, end of story.

Their is classroom/dojo fighting and there is survival fighting. The former matters for junk all, in my equation.

 

[Tames D]

There is no such thing as "just fighting" outside of training, in real life. Since 1991 I have had to fight for my life in BDUs and then blue more than once. Just fighting? If you can say that you have never faced a real fight and, tbh, good for you because I wish to God I didn't know the difference.

PS... my definition of a real fight? A guy is slamming you in the balls repeatedly so he can take your gun. You have him goose necked, robbing his brain of O2 so he doesn't get your gun and kill your fellows. You win, he looses, but when he is finally cuffed you curl up into a ball finally because you permit the pain to effect you. That is a real fight, that you apparently dismiss in your arrogance.

There is no "just fighting". There is life, and there is death. If you are thinking, outside of class, that a real street fight is anything else, then you have never been in a real street fight because irl, on the street, they want to mail, cripple or kill you. Period, end of story.

Calm down little man. Yes, it's just fighting. You are over thinking. I don't care about your so called qualifications. It's just fighting. Sorry if I offended you but you are wrong. And yes I can say "I have faced a real fight". Call me arrogant? You have no idea where I've been or what I've done you son of a *****!!!!!!
Again... You have no idea of where I've been.

 

[Tez3]

Too many think a scuffle with an inept mugger is a 'fight' because that's what they've seen in the videos and they can fight off their opponent in a scenario based training exercise. A fight isn't that, it's this UK's youngest war veteran 'murdered on a night out in his home town'. I knew this lad could look after himself, he was an army boxer, young and fit but he still sadly lost the fight and his life.
I remember something that Iain Abernethy said to us, he had a chap come to him and say he didn't do well because at a train station late one night, he was on the platform with his suitcase and some intimidating guys came onto the platform, what he did was put his suitcases to one side and swiftly walk away off the platform and now he was ashamed because he thought he was a coward. Iain told him he did exactly the right thing, fights weren't training, they weren't to be welcomed because they were nasty and could well be fatal. He said he would have done the exact same thing. I know Iain can make a very good account of himself, he punches like Ali ( that's his first move btw, kata is the failsafe) but he has a realistic view of what fights are.

 

[Juany118]

Calm down little man. Yes, it's just fighting. You are over thinking. I don't care about your so called qualifications. It's just fighting. Sorry if I offended you but you are wrong. And yes I can say "I have faced a real fight". Call me arrogant? You have no idea where I've been or what I've done you son of a *****!!!!!!
Again... You have no idea of where I've been.

Odd since in the end martial arts is a combination of qualifications/experience, training and talent.

You can can say I don't know where you come from and that is true. However when you take a shot like you did and are called on it, in any logical debate structure it's on YOU to justify your statement, not me.

 

[Tames D]

There is no such thing as "just fighting" outside of training, in real life. Since 1991 I have had to fight for my life in BDUs and then blue more than once. Just fighting? If you can say that you have never faced a real fight and, tbh, good for you because I wish to God I didn't know the difference.

PS... my definition of a real fight? A guy is slamming you in the balls repeatedly so he can take your gun. You have him goose necked, robbing his brain of O2 so he doesn't get your gun and kill your fellows. You win, he looses, but when he is finally cuffed you curl up into a ball finally because you permit the pain to effect you. That is a real fight, that you apparently dismiss in your arrogance.

There is no "just fighting". There is life, and there is death. If you are thinking, outside of class, that a real street fight is anything else, then you have never been in a real street fight because irl, on the street, they want to maim, cripple or kill you. Tbh they don't care which at the time, they simply act and worry about the consequence later. Period, end of story.

Their is classroom/dojo fighting and there is survival fighting. The former matters for junk all, in my equation.

Please do not ever belittle me again dude.

 

[Juany118]

Too many think a scuffle with an inept mugger is a 'fight' because that's what they've seen in the videos and they can fight off their opponent in a scenario based training exercise. A fight isn't that, it's this UK's youngest war veteran 'murdered on a night out in his home town'. I knew this lad could look after himself, he was an army boxer, young and fit but he still sadly lost the fight and his life.
I remember something that Iain Abernethy said to us, he had a chap come to him and say he didn't do well because at a train station late one night, he was on the platform with his suitcase and some intimidating guys came onto the platform, what he did was put his suitcases to one side and swiftly walk away off the platform and now he was ashamed because he thought he was a coward. Iain told him he did exactly the right thing, fights weren't training, they weren't to be welcomed because they were nasty and could well be fatal. He said he would have done the exact same thing. I know Iain can make a very good account of himself, he punches like Ali ( that's his first move btw, kata is the failsafe) but he has a realistic view of what fights are.

Nothing to like about that be because it is a tragedy, but I had to agree.

 

[Juany118]

Please do not ever belittle me again dude.

Wasn't belittling, I was challenging you. There is a difference. If you can express a like experience we can agree to disagree man, it happens all the time in logical debates, there doesn't have to be a winner and a looser. You made a Fiat statment with nothing else. I called you on it, that's it. Relate a like experience on the street and as I said, i have now issue with "agree to disagree."

 

[drop bear]

There is no such thing as "just fighting" outside of training, in real life. Since 1991 I have had to fight for my life in BDUs and then blue more than once. Just fighting? If you can say that you have never faced a real fight and, tbh, good for you because I wish to God I didn't know the difference.

PS... my definition of a real fight? A guy is slamming you in the balls repeatedly so he can take your gun. You have him goose necked, robbing his brain of O2 so he doesn't get your gun and kill your fellows. You win, he looses, but when he is finally cuffed you curl up into a ball finally because you permit the pain to effect you. That is a real fight, that you apparently dismiss in your arrogance.

There is no "just fighting". There is life, and there is death. If you are thinking, outside of class, that a real street fight is anything else, then you have never been in a real street fight because irl, on the street, they want to maim, cripple or kill you. Tbh they don't care which at the time, they simply act and worry about the consequence later. Period, end of story.

Their is classroom/dojo fighting and there is survival fighting. The former matters for junk all, in my equation.

I dont know i found most of mine to be pretty funny.

And isnt a goose neck a wrist lock?

 

[Juany118]

I dont know i found most of mine to be pretty funny.

And isnt a goose neck a wrist lock?

I was using "street cop" parlance there. In that definition you are placing a thumb on the carotid and the other fingers on the jugular (or vice versa depending on strong hand/weak hand). This way you don't compromise the air way but make the suspect black out long enough that you and he both live.

What I related was, no exaggeration a fight for my life. My radio failed. I was 2 blocks away from my car because of a foot pursuit. Back up was yelling "John!" In the alleys as they searched for me using my squad car as a starting point. It was a **** show and let's leave it as that. This is why when people say "it's just a fight" I get my back up because, in my experience, there is no such thing.

 

[drop bear]

I was using "street cop" parlance there. In that definition you are placing a thumb on the carotid and the other fingers on the jugular (or vice versa depending on strong hand/weak hand). This way you don't compromise the air way but make the suspect black out long enough that you and he both live.

What I related was, no exaggeration a fight for my life. My radio failed. I was 2 blocks away from my car because of a foot pursuit. Back up was yelling "John!" In the alleys as they searched for me using my squad car as a starting point. It was a **** show and let's leave it as that. This is why when people say "it's just a fight" I get my back up because, in my experience, there is no such thing.

Security guard parlance calls that the craw.

Not the craw.

And that was just a fight. Sorry. They all are.

 

[Tez3]

'Just' a fight until you have to really fight. I love the macho posturing there is when some talk about fights. yeah mate it was just a fight.........

 

[mograph]

Not the craw.

Excellent. Get Smart fan.

 

[Juany118]

Security guard parlance calls that the craw.

Not the craw.

And that was just a fight. Sorry. They all are.

Maybe it's my experience. I know "fights" when people are just trying to prove who is stronger, then those trying to just get away, then those trying to out right kill you and whoever else gets in their way.

Because of the law... please Google recent USA law enforcement related incidents... I can't afford to have such a lax definition.

 

[drop bear]

Maybe it's my experience. I know "fights" when people are just trying to prove who is stronger, then those trying to just get away, then those trying to out right kill you and whoever else gets in their way.

Because of the law... please Google recent USA law enforcement related incidents... I can't afford to have such a lax definition.

You don't have a monopoly on violence just because you got squirrel gripped. The violence that happens to you is not worse just because it happened to you.

I am not sure what point you are trying to prove here.

 

[Tez3]

It's all good fun until someone loses an eye....

Somewhat petty to belittle a police officer's experience, better to learn from others about situations than actually to have experience them yourself.

 

[drop bear]

It's all good fun until someone loses an eye....

Somewhat petty to belittle a police officer's experience, better to learn from others about situations than actually to have experience them yourself.

Mate of mine lost an eye working at a pub we did. Got glassed by some dude. It was fun and games even after that.

Not as serious as getting squirrel gripped sure,but still pretty impressive.

Are we just going to have a war story off to decide who is more life and death here?

Try and impress people with our hard bitten lives because I thing that is a bit of an ego stroking game to be honest. And very little to do with the topic.

Fights are risky people get hurt. Don't engage in them unless you can deal with that.