Fixing the training model

[Hanzou]

Dude I have lost count of the arts you say are no good ....seriously if you want to pick an art apart then fine but do it from a logical point of view not a biased one and jeez the no touch knock downs lol there are very simple explanations for some of them but will you listen nope ...you just wanna slam the person that doing it

I hate to break it to you, but no-touch is 100% fantasy. You can go cry in the corner now.

 

[Hanzou]

Making up words 'straw-manning' doesn't help you, you have always said and I can go back over all your posts to prove this, said only BJJ works and everything is rubbish. You resort to this puffery of being 'offended' when you know we are right. Sad but true.

By all means, find a post where I ever said that "Only Bjj works, everything else doesn't/is crap/is rubbish/trash/whatever."

I think you come here to get your biases confirmed but when they aren't you go all maiden aunt on us. Quite funny really.

What's funny is how you jump from "the majority of karate schools I've visited have severe issues" to "All karate schools are trash".The fact that you're defending your silly argument is especially sad.

 

[now disabled]

I hate to break it to you, but no-touch is 100% fantasy. You can go cry in the corner now.

And your point is ? and where did I ever say it was a legit thing?

Oh sorry I forgot you posted vids of Ueshiba Morihei when he was in his latter years ............did it never occur to you that there may be reasons for that happening ? or are you just not gonna listen AGAIN lol

 

[now disabled]

By all means, find a post where I ever said that "Only Bjj works, everything else doesn't/is crap/is rubbish/trash/whatever."



What's funny is how you jump from "the majority of karate schools I've visited have severe issues" to "All karate schools are trash".The fact that you're defending your silly argument is especially sad.

You break dancing again trying to do a body pop to get outta this lol ?

 

[Hanzou]

And your point is ? and where did I ever say it was a legit thing?

Oh sorry I forgot you posted vids of Ueshiba Morihei when he was in his latter years ............did it never occur to you that there may be reasons for that happening ? or are you just not gonna listen AGAIN lol

Yes, his students wanted to make him feel like he was still relevant, despite being incredibly old and ill, and probably unable to throw a paper airplane, much less a person. Helio Gracie's students did the exact same thing for him when he got old. However, the latter situation never devolved into no-touch silliness. Even more importantly, Gracie's students never began doing no-touch silliness themselves like Ueshiba's did.

 

[now disabled]

Yes, his students wanted to make him feel like he was still relevant, despite being incredibly old and ill, and probably unable to throw a paper airplane, much less a person. Helio Gracie's students did the exact same thing for him when he got old. However, the latter situation never devolved into no-touch silliness. Even more importantly, Gracie's students never began doing no-touch silliness themselves like Ueshiba's did.

You seriously miss and lack the understanding as to why and why some went that route ...........oh and the ones that did ummm I think you might find they set up on their own and were not affiliated to Ueshiba Morihei or did ya miss that bit ?

 

[Hanzou]

You seriously miss and lack the understanding as to why and why some went that route ...........oh and the ones that did ummm I think you might find they set up on their own and were not affiliated to Ueshiba Morihei or did ya miss that bit ?

Yeah yeah, the typical "you don't understand how we throw people without touching them" excuse. Thing is, I've been in a grappling art for a very long time, so I understand what it takes to throw someone. You're not going to be taking down or throwing anyone by barely touching them. Trying to rationalize this garbage is simply sad and shows what happens when martial artists develop a cult-like devotion to a long-dead figurehead.

Let me know when one of these Aikidoka can pull that off against someone who doesn't want to be thrown. Until then, it gets tossed in the pile of everything wrong with modern martial arts.

 

[now disabled]

Yeah yeah, the typical "you don't understand how we throw people without touching them" excuse. Thing is, I've been in a grappling art for a very long time, so I understand what it takes to throw someone. You're not going to be taking down or throwing anyone by barely touching them. Trying to rationalize this garbage is simply sad and shows what happens when martial artists develop a cult-like devotion to a long-dead figurehead.

Let me know when one of these Aikidoka can pull that off against someone who doesn't want to be thrown. Until then, it gets tossed in the pile of everything wrong with modern martial arts.

Firstly that is not a modern thing

Secondly what cult are you on about lol?

Third do you actually have any idea of how that happens or why it happened ? your partly there but there is a gaping whole lol

 

[now disabled]

Yeah yeah, the typical "you don't understand how we throw people without touching them" excuse. Thing is, I've been in a grappling art for a very long time, so I understand what it takes to throw someone. You're not going to be taking down or throwing anyone by barely touching them. Trying to rationalize this garbage is simply sad and shows what happens when martial artists develop a cult-like devotion to a long-dead figurehead.

Let me know when one of these Aikidoka can pull that off against someone who doesn't want to be thrown. Until then, it gets tossed in the pile of everything wrong with modern martial arts.

Oh are we back to have a go at Ueshiba Morihei again ?

just like recently, you said that all the things that were recorded were basically rubbish and biased about him ...oh and that Kano had a vested interest in preserving Ueshiba Morihei .................and you avoided answering that one when you were asked ....but hey that not unusual now is it

 

[Hanzou]

Firstly that is not a modern thing

Secondly what cult are you on about lol?

Third do you actually have any idea of how that happens or why it happened ? your partly there but there is a gaping whole lol

Uh, we had an Aikikai affiliated instructor doing it less than 10 years ago at a demonstration at the Aikido Hombu in Japan. Last I checked that counts as modern.

I don't care what you think happens or why you think it happens.It's fantasy on multiple levels.

 

[now disabled]

Uh, we had an Aikikai affiliated instructor doing it less than 10 years ago at a demonstration at the Aikido Hombu in Japan. Last I checked that counts as modern.

I don't care what you think happens or why you think it happens.It's fantasy on multiple levels.

Are you talking about the vid you posted of that Shihan? ...........and if so first that was not taken at the Aikikai Honbu and second I did point out to you at the time that that Shihan had seriously fallen from grace cause he was following that "way" or are you talking about Tohei as if you are that is going back a bit lol and ummm that to caused a major rift or did you miss that ?

You might also want to factor in that the schools that do push the Ki side are some of the cleanest guys at tech that there is in the classical sense

 

[Tez3]

I hate to break it to you, but no-touch is 100% fantasy. You can go cry in the corner now.

ah you see, you haven't understood the question I posed which is …. techniques which work very well in BJJ are considered by you to be useless when someone who also does 'no touch KO's' does exactly the same technique, so in fact only techniques done by BJJer's are valid not when they are done by other's, even people who believe in the 'no touch' fallacy yet who can be quite decent at techniques which are also used in BJJ.

hat's funny is how you jump from "the majority of karate schools I've visited have severe issues" to "All karate schools are trash".The fact that you're defending your silly argument is especially sad.

Ah but it's not your only post on the subject is it? You've said many times that 'karate is rubbish'.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you talking about the vid you posted of that Shihan? ...........and if so first that was not taken at the Aikikai Honbu and second I did point out to you at the time that that Shihan had seriously fallen from grace cause he was following that "way" or are you talking about Tohei as if you are that is going back a bit lol and ummm that to caused a major rift or did you miss that ?

I was talking about Watanabe, who is still considered a respected instructor in the Aikido community. I have yet to see anyone openly criticize anything he's been doing.

This is him at the Aikido Hombu:

He's been doing this for a very long time.

You might also want to factor in that the schools that do push the Ki side are some of the cleanest guys at tech that there is in the classical sense

Which means nothing if you're deluding your students into thinking you can throw someone without touching them.

 

[Hanzou]

ah you see, you haven't understood the question I posed which is …. techniques which work very well in BJJ are considered by you to be useless when someone who also does 'no touch KO's' does exactly the same technique, so in fact only techniques done by BJJer's are valid not when they are done by other's, even people who believe in the 'no touch' fallacy yet who can be quite decent at techniques which are also used in BJJ.

I understood your question just fine. I'll say again what I said before: If you engage in No-touch garbage anything else you do training-wise is irrelevant, because you're no longer based in reality or any logical principles, martial arts or otherwise. You've gotten to the point where you believe your own BS to the point of lunacy, and your students/disciples will suffer for it.

Prime example:

If your instructor is doing this, you need to leave, because there is nothing of value to be found there.

The vast majority of MA schools don't engage in this nonsense, so I have no issue with them in that regard.

Ah but it's not your only post on the subject is it? You've said many times that 'karate is rubbish'.

Uh huh.

 

[now disabled]

Expanding on what @Tez3 is saying and asking ...... I will ask more do you as the BJJ guy use wrist locks or elbow locks/manipulation? ...just asking as a while back a vid was posted of another art doing what I would call nikkyo (ok it wasn't done as I would and imo wasn't a good example) but because it was done in an Art you have not had a go at does that make it ok ? and yet in Aikido it not ? (and no guys that lock is not only in Aikido lol I know that lol just asking and expanding to try and get an answer) also kote-gaeshi yes it in many other arts and has been around well before Aikido but cause it most often seen on vids as a throw (in Aikido) is it ok if other Arts use it as what it mostlly is when applied to a person who either cannot do or isn't able to do the breakfall ?

 

[Hanzou]

Expanding on what @Tez3 is saying and asking ...... I will ask more do you as the BJJ guy use wrist locks or elbow locks/manipulation? ...just asking as a while back a vid was posted of another art doing what I would call nikkyo (ok it wasn't done as I would and imo wasn't a good example) but because it was done in an Art you have not had a go at does that make it ok ? and yet in Aikido it not ? (and no guys that lock is not only in Aikido lol I know that lol just asking and expanding to try and get an answer) also kote-gaeshi yes it in many other arts and has been around well before Aikido but cause it most often seen on vids as a throw (in Aikido) is it ok if other Arts use it as what it mostlly is when applied to a person who either cannot do or isn't able to do the breakfall ?

 

[Tez3]

I understood your question just fine. I'll say again what I said before: If you engage in No-touch garbage anything else you do training-wise is irrelevant, because you're no longer based in reality or any logical principles, martial arts or otherwise. You've gotten to the point where you believe your own BS to the point of lunacy, and your students/disciples will suffer for it.

Prime example:

If your instructor is doing this, you need to leave, because there is nothing of value to be found there.

The vast majority of MA schools don't engage in this nonsense, so I have no issue with them in that regard.



Uh huh.

We are discussing techniques not the people as such. if a technique works, it works even if the user is a flat earther, the technique doesn't become redundant and useless because of the beliefs of the user.

 

[Hanzou]

We are discussing techniques not the people as such. if a technique works, it works even if the user is a flat earther, the technique doesn't become redundant and useless because of the beliefs of the user.

Except no touch doesn't work, and is a useless technique regardless of what the user believes.

 

[Steve]

ah you see, you haven't understood the question I posed which is …. techniques which work very well in BJJ are considered by you to be useless when someone who also does 'no touch KO's' does exactly the same technique, so in fact only techniques done by BJJer's are valid not when they are done by other's, even people who believe in the 'no touch' fallacy yet who can be quite decent at techniques which are also used in BJJ.



Ah but it's not your only post on the subject is it? You've said many times that 'karate is rubbish'.

The same techniques may be rubbish. Depends on the training model which is precisely the point of discussion in this thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Except no touch doesn't work, and is a useless technique regardless of what the user believes.

I think her point is about dismissing everything else someone does because of no-touch. I've learned a few interesting tweaks from folks whose overall technique was pretty much crap. I found what I could to learn from. I even know one group that teaches a no-touch disruption (it's a mind trick, playing on the desire to avoid running into things) that actually works in the dojo (I experienced it without knowing what was coming). I wouldn't trust it in the street, though it was intellectually interesting to muck with. But that didn't affect - positively or negatively - the reliability of their other techniques. It was a hint to me to be a bit more skeptical than usual, so it's not as if I ignored the issue.

I hold the same view when I talk to a young-Earther about business. I have some extra skepticism because they seem to have a problem with following evidence, but I don't automatically discard everything they think they've learned.