Fixing the training model

[pdg]

So this is from a few pages back, but decided to read the thread fully. A couple of the posters were suggesting that if they met with Hanzou they would have no issues beating him in a fight. I don't understand that point of view, because
A: unless we face each other in person, we have no way of knowing if that's true or not. I can assume all day long that steve can kick my ***, and also assume that I could beat gerry easily, but until I fight them or train with them in some capacity, I have nothing to back up either of those beliefs (not saying either are my assumptions, just chose two random people).
B: Let's say I'm arguing with Steve, and I'm convinced that Kata are helpful, and he's convinced they're not. Now I meet up with him, fight him, and win. Does that mean I can now say "I'm better than you, so obviously I was right? I beat you because of kata?" If he wins, does that mean he can say "I'm better than you, so obviously I was right? You lost because you spent too much time doing kata?"
C: To continue with me and Steve...let's say we fight multiple times. Now let's say *Gasp* he wins sometimes, and I win sometimes!!! What does that mean? Does kata change between meaningful and meaningless?? Should I have done more kata in my fight prep when I lost? Did I not understand my kata well enough? Did me winning the next time mean I magically understood it in that 3 months time?
A post on a forum isn't an indicator of fighting ability, fighting ability can change, and fighting ability doesn't mean everything you say is wrong/right.

I have to agree with that, it makes sense. Especially the closing sentence.

I never said I could beat anyone easily, because it wouldn't be a sensible statement for me to make - but I can surmise I would stand a good chance against someone of roughly equivalent skill as me.

 

[pdg]

Oh, and @Steve - re: seemingly having a go at me...

Have you actually read the whole thread, and a couple of related ones?

Taken completely out of context my recent posts here could be interpreted as you describe.

But against previous comments, I would hope it's a slightly different situation.

So either you haven't read them and are jumping in half armed, or...

You share the same mindset, that of "grappling beats all easily, if you don't grapple you're wrong and everything else is a waste of time".

 

[now disabled]

I have to agree with that, it makes sense. Especially the closing sentence.

I never said I could beat anyone easily, because it wouldn't be a sensible statement for me to make - but I can surmise I would stand a good chance against someone of roughly equivalent skill as me.

Bro it was me I think he was referring to lol .............I have no clue if I could even stand a chance but it be fun exploring the possibility as I never fought in a comp in my life so. I would also gain something I would suspect

 

[Hanzou]

I think he is biased against the British. I heard his ancestor was killed by Benedict Arnold's wife, and his family never got over it.

Actually I'm rather fond of the British Isles. Love the accents, the food, and the women. I have a Scottish last name to boot. I need to make a point to head back there when I have a chance.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah but that is because when it comes to self defense results don't matter.

It matters to the person defending themselves, it matters far more than any competition. The desired result for them is that they get to live.

 

[Hanzou]

I think one was me saying next time I was stateside if he arranged mat time I'd be happy to well see if he could back up what he said lol .... no challenge just see if he could do as he says lol....and he said thought I was disabled (which I am lol) and I said still think I could handle things lol

Yes, because choking out a disabled man on video would do so much to further my reputation....

Eh cause you keep saying basically all other arts do not compare as you trained in so many and know it fact ....so it kinda does have bearing ....???....or are ya gonna side step that too lol

If you actually pay attention to my posts, I tend to only have in depth criticism for Karate, since I trained that particular striking art. The other arts I criticize mainly comes from what I'm observing. Things like no-touch Aikido for example, or Kung Fu principles that are largely based on pseudo-science (like the hilarious Wing Chun anti-grappling) are rather easy to criticize without having actually trained in those arts.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, and
You share the same mindset, that of "grappling beats all easily, if you don't grapple you're wrong and everything else is a waste of time".

You guys have a knack for complaining about arguments that no one is making.

Oversensitive much?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really. Because when you are training structure you are not looking for efficiency. You are looking to make it harder than it needs to be.

I would train with a weight vest. But I wouldn't run a race with one

I should have included a smiley - that was a facetious comment. I don't like the technique as shown there, either. I'd have to talk to someone who knows more about application of the moves in that kata, but my initial impression is that it'd be better to make some adjustment in the kata to that particular movement if you're going to tie it. So, maybe show the original kata movement, show the technique as kinda close, then show a version of that section of the kata that specifically reinforces that technique. I don't like kata to reinforce bad habits - I actually teach students to adjust the kata depending upon the intent they're working with for a specific section.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So this is from a few pages back, but decided to read the thread fully. A couple of the posters were suggesting that if they met with Hanzou they would have no issues beating him in a fight. I don't understand that point of view, because
A: unless we face each other in person, we have no way of knowing if that's true or not. I can assume all day long that steve can kick my ***, and also assume that I could beat gerry easily, but until I fight them or train with them in some capacity, I have nothing to back up either of those beliefs (not saying either are my assumptions, just chose two random people).
B: Let's say I'm arguing with Steve, and I'm convinced that Kata are helpful, and he's convinced they're not. Now I meet up with him, fight him, and win. Does that mean I can now say "I'm better than you, so obviously I was right? I beat you because of kata?" If he wins, does that mean he can say "I'm better than you, so obviously I was right? You lost because you spent too much time doing kata?"
C: To continue with me and Steve...let's say we fight multiple times. Now let's say *Gasp* he wins sometimes, and I win sometimes!!! What does that mean? Does kata change between meaningful and meaningless?? Should I have done more kata in my fight prep when I lost? Did I not understand my kata well enough? Did me winning the next time mean I magically understood it in that 3 months time?
A post on a forum isn't an indicator of fighting ability, fighting ability can change, and fighting ability doesn't mean everything you say is wrong/right.

Agreed.

For my point of view, I just consider it safest to assume everyone can kick my ***. It keeps me out of trouble. Since I teach kata, but they weren't significantly part of my training in the past, I'm not sure what that says about kata, though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

hey man . Great post except why are you calling me out?

Your avatar is less scary than Hanzou's.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, because choking out a disabled man on video would do so much to further my reputation....



If you actually pay attention to my posts, I tend to only have in depth criticism for Karate, since I trained that particular striking art. The other arts I criticize mainly comes from what I'm observing. Things like no-touch Aikido for example, or Kung Fu principles that are largely based on pseudo-science (like the hilarious Wing Chun anti-grappling) are rather easy to criticize without having actually trained in those arts.

Hey, keep your mitts off the no-touch Aikido.

(See what I did there?? )

 

[Tez3]

since I trained that particular striking art.

The thing is...you didn't. You said yourself, you were taught by a young teenage boy and an elderly instructor who was pressured to give said boy a black belt. This is in no way indicative of karate as a whole. I went to a lousy BJJ class once, I believe they had videos on their website should I know slag off BJJ because of this? No, of course not. You went to a McDojo and think your time spent there is what we've all done. Of course we haven't.

The other arts I criticize mainly comes from what I'm observing.

You aren't criticising the arts though, you are criticising individual's videos who purport to be doing those arts. Those who do these arts well don't care what people think, they don't make videos to show off their skills so you don't actually get to see them, you just watch videos of the narcissists who can't actually practice what they say they can. Big difference. I went on a seminar where different instructors were teaching what they do, I watched a 'no touch KO', absolute rubbish but their separate self defence techniques were very good, practical and easy to learn yet all you are ever going to see is their stupid 'no touch KOs' on videos. You cannot judge life and training by You Tube.

 

[Hanzou]

The thing is...you didn't. You said yourself, you were taught by a young teenage boy and an elderly instructor who was pressured to give said boy a black belt. This is in no way indicative of karate as a whole. I went to a lousy BJJ class once, I believe they had videos on their website should I know slag off BJJ because of this? No, of course not. You went to a McDojo and think your time spent there is what we've all done. Of course we haven't.

You assume that I haven't been to any Karate schools since. I've visited quite a few karate schools since I left Shotokan (I've been invited to teach Bjj in a few schools and programs), and many karate and TKD schools are actually WORSE than what I personally experienced. Obviously there are some exceptions, but they were exactly that.

Now I have no qualms about someone wishing to participate in such a "dojo" but I would never put my kids or loved ones in such a program and pretend that they are learning anything beyond East Asian dancing.

You aren't criticising the arts though, you are criticising individual's videos who purport to be doing those arts. Those who do these arts well don't care what people think, they don't make videos to show off their skills so you don't actually get to see them, you just watch videos of the narcissists who can't actually practice what they say they can. Big difference. I went on a seminar where different instructors were teaching what they do, I watched a 'no touch KO', absolute rubbish but their separate self defence techniques were very good, practical and easy to learn yet all you are ever going to see is their stupid 'no touch KOs' on videos. You cannot judge life and training by You Tube.

The very fact that they're doing no-touch KO BS (and they're willing to show it off as if its something to be proud of) invalidates everything else that they're doing. It's no different than that clown Dillman who believed he could launch chi-balls at people. Yeah, he may have been a solid teacher at one point, but once he started believing he could use the force he lost all credibility.

 

[Tez3]

You assume that I haven't been to any Karate schools since. I've visited quite a few karate schools since I left Shotokan (I've been invited to teach Bjj in a few schools and programs), and many karate and TKD schools are actually WORSE than what I personally experienced. Obviously there are some exceptions, but they were exactly that.

Now I have no qualms about someone wishing to participate in such a "dojo" but I would never put my kids or loved ones in such a program and pretend that they are learning anything beyond East Asian dancing.



The very fact that they're doing no-touch KO BS (and they're willing to show it off as if its something to be proud of) invalidates everything else that they're doing.

and there we have it, the evidence speaks plainly that all karate, all around the world, taught by anyone is complete rubbish. A technique taught by a BJJ instructor works wonderfully well but when exactly the same technique is taught by someone who also does the silly stuff it automatically doesn't work and should be discounted, interesting.

You dismiss people who teach karate some of whom are the best fighters I've ever seen, Ticky Donovan, Steve Arneil, Dave Hazard and many, many more. They are just from the UK, I'm sure others can fill you in with the names of very good karateka from their areas. if you are just going to McDojos in line with the one you attended then no wonder you don't know any better and have to be so insulting. It's interesting too that you don't mention these dojos by name or call them out individually but just lump all karate as being rubbish, nonsense of course.

You are insulting and the way you talk about karate and other styles is most definitely against the rules here or perhaps you think you are above them unlike the rest of us? You have the fervour of a convert determined to root out the evil you think you see, but your eyes are clouded with the hate you have for something you don't actually understand. Like all converts you think you know better than those with a deep knowledge and love of their subject and like all converts you will become disillusioned or a tyrant.

 

[Hanzou]

and there we have it, the evidence speaks plainly that all karate, all around the world, taught by anyone is complete rubbish.

Yeah, I never said that, and isn't even close to what I was discussing in the post you quoted. You certainly have a penchant for straw-manning everything that I write, but I suppose it's par the course at this point.

You dismiss people who teach karate some of whom are the best fighters I've ever seen, Ticky Donovan, Steve Arneil, Dave Hazard and many, many more. They are just from the UK, I'm sure others can fill you in with the names of very good karateka from their areas. if you are just going to McDojos in line with the one you attended then no wonder you don't know any better and have to be so insulting. It's interesting too that you don't mention these dojos by name or call them out individually but just lump all karate as being rubbish, nonsense of course.

Yes, it is nonsense because I never said that ALL karate is "rubbish".

You are insulting and the way you talk about karate and other styles is most definitely against the rules here or perhaps you think you are above them unlike the rest of us? You have the fervour of a convert determined to root out the evil you think you see, but your eyes are clouded with the hate you have for something you don't actually understand. Like all converts you think you know better than those with a deep knowledge and love of their subject and like all converts you will become disillusioned or a tyrant.

Hello Pot, meet Kettle....

 

[now disabled]

Yeah, I never said that, and isn't even close to what I was discussing in the post you quoted. You certainly have a penchant for straw-manning everything that I write, but I suppose it's par the course at this point.



Yes, it is nonsense because I never said that ALL karate is "rubbish".



Hello Pot, meet Kettle....

Dude I have lost count of the arts you say are no good ....seriously if you want to pick an art apart then fine but do it from a logical point of view not a biased one and jeez the no touch knock downs lol there are very simple explanations for some of them but will you listen nope ...you just wanna slam the person that doing it

 

[now disabled]

You guys have a knack for complaining about arguments that no one is making.

Oversensitive much?

No one is making jeez that is a good one lol..... bro how many times have you stated this or that or the next about an Art then when you are called on it you either don't answer or cherry pick bits to answer?

And when you are presented with facts and recorded events your get out is they biased ....

 

[Tez3]

You certainly have a penchant for straw-manning everything that I write, but I suppose it's par the course at this point.

Making up words 'straw-manning' doesn't help you, you have always said and I can go back over all your posts to prove this, said only BJJ works and everything is rubbish. You resort to this puffery of being 'offended' when you know we are right. Sad but true.

I think you come here to get your biases confirmed but when they aren't you go all maiden aunt on us. Quite funny really.

 

[now disabled]

Actually I'm rather fond of the British Isles. Love the accents, the food, and the women. I have a Scottish last name to boot. I need to make a point to head back there when I have a chance.

Oh no please don't start on the claiming of ancestors lol.....if I had a penny for everytime I heard that I'd be a billionaire lol .... And I'd watch the women as they may just be liking ya to try and get a green card lol ....

 

[now disabled]

Making up words 'straw-manning' doesn't help you, you have always said and I can go back over all your posts to prove this, said only BJJ works and everything is rubbish. You resort to this puffery of being 'offended' when you know we are right. Sad but true.

I think you come here to get your biases confirmed but when they aren't you go all maiden aunt on us. Quite funny really.

I'm telling ya MUSHROOM lol................lives in the dark grows in the dark and is in the dark lol