Fixing the training model

[Buka]

Having only been practicing Kata for a couple years on a limited part time basis, I can’t wait for the parts relating to defending myself when attacked or about to be attacked.

That should be cool.

 

[Tez3]

Ryan Hall, McKenzie Dern, and Kron Gracie show otherwise. They're essentially just adding punches and kicks to Bjj and having their way with people.

I'm really sure they aren't! Unless they are sexual predators! Urban Dictionary: have your way with ( American definitions not British)

'Just adding punches and kicks' so adding a whole new style then not just going into the cage with BJJ!

 

[Hanzou]

I'm really sure they aren't! Unless they are sexual predators! Urban Dictionary: have your way with ( American definitions not British)

'Just adding punches and kicks' so adding a whole new style then not just going into the cage with BJJ!

You never saw the old Gracie challenge tapes? They used punches and kicks too. Royce Gracie also used kicks and punches in the original UFCs.

 

[Steve]

Well, depending on who you believe that's either a minimum of two generations separate or entirely unrelated.

Still doesn't mean you were any good at it, nor that you understood it.

Errr... It's possible that between the two of you, he is the only one who understands it. That is how these things tend to go.

At this point, your position is devolving into mild attacks on hanzou's credibility. Just skip to the end, call him a Nazi and we can wrap this one up.

Regarding the rule set favoring grapples, it's a wash at best. I have shared in past threads how grappling is significantly nerfed by the rules to favor striking.

 

[Tez3]

Regarding the rule set favoring grapples, it's a wash at best. I have shared in past threads how grappling is significantly nerfed by the rules to favor striking.

We may need to qualify what set of rules here, as I've said before in the UK we can have whatever rules we want which is something that happens in other countries around the world (or across if you are a flat earther) as well. Promoters have been known to change the rules to suit whichever fighter they prefer to win ( of the fighter's manager/coach has negotiated for), some sets will favour grapplers other will favour strikers. There is no one rule set.

 

[Steve]

When you learn a little respect and intelligence, let me know and maybe we can have a reasonable discussion.

Someone's being disrespectful. Kindly knock it off.

 

[Steve]

We may need to qualify what set of rules here, as I've said before in the UK we can have whatever rules we want which is something that happens in other countries around the world (or across if you are a flat earther) as well. Promoters have been known to change the rules to suit whichever fighter they prefer to win ( of the fighter's manager/coach has negotiated for), some sets will favour grapplers other will favour strikers. There is no one rule set.

There are modifed rules here, too. I'm referring to the unified ruleset that is most often used.

 

[Tez3]

There are modifed rules here, too. I'm referring to the unified ruleset that is most often used.

'Most often used' in the USA, not necessarily the world.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What is the focus of it currently then?

Who complained about the physicality?

Do people really turn up to a class, gently run through a kata or two then call it day and go home - then conclude that they're extreme fighters?

While that's an oversimplification, a bit of that does occur. People go to class, and work as hard as the class works (most people working near the average of the class). In most classes, that won't be as much exertion as someone preparing for an MMA fight. In many, it won't be as much exertion as someone training with someone training for an MMA fight (like @drop bear). But they often still think they're developing the same ability. Why? Because some instructors think that, or at least say they do.

Folks who are realistic about their training will know they aren't training as hard, so won't be as capable. Most of us have played some sports in our lifetime, and have seen the reality that physical skill in almost anything is enhanced by fitness. In fighting, it's also enhanced by the kind of toughness that's developed by being disciplined about pushing yourself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which is where Abernathy ties himself up conceptually.

He tries to create a separation between fighting and self defense and basically can't.

And so will go from fighting isn't self defence and here is my multiple attacker sparring drill.

Of he won't use a boxing cover because that's fighting but will instead use lomenchenko style grasping because somehow that is self defence.

And bunkai is a really good example of how people mess up kata application

And so will look at say the chamber of a karate punch to find the secret application rather than it just being a structural concept.

And then because the karate punch leaves your head open and so will get you unfairly panel beaten by any decent striker in sparring

Instead of taking that feedback and fixing the trading model. They go and make this fighting self defense distinction so that the model still works. It just never works where people can experience it.

I'm not terribly familiar with Abernethy's work, but from what I've seen, he doesn't seem to talk about secret, hidden stuff. He uses movement in a kata to help describe the technique he teaches. He shows where the movement is, as practiced in kata, that comes closest to a given technique. I think - and may be wrong - that the point of tying it to kata is twofold: firstly it gives folks a movement they already know to get them closer to doing it right the first time, and secondly it gives a new intention to focus on when practicing that part of the kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So here we go. This is not just learning mobility and balance by turning on one foot.

It's a self defense move.

Yes a wizzer is a real thing. But it is an ugly way to try to apply a wizzer.

I'm not sure I'd even consider that a wizzer. My understanding of a wizzer (pretty much third-hand, and relating it back to what I know that's similar) is that it's a takedown from the shoulder/upper arm. He's using the wizzer (sort of) to restrain the shoulder forward, but the takedown is a leg sweep, with little input from the shoulder.

 

[pdg]

Errr... It's possible that between the two of you, he is the only one who understands it. That is how these things tend to go.

At this point, your position is devolving into mild attacks on hanzou's credibility. Just skip to the end, call him a Nazi and we can wrap this one up.

Someone's being disrespectful. Kindly knock it off.

Let's be fair here, I'm not the one claiming an "instructor grade" in a system that I can't make work for me.

I'm not the one claiming an "instructor grade" in a system that uses kata as part of training, yet believe that kata are pointless and do or mean nothing.

I'm not the one who spent an alleged 8 years training in a system only to do a couple of judo classes and, based on the outcome of that, write off every striking system (because I can't make it work).

I'm not the one berating other people's chosen system with thinly veiled insults like "whatever it's called in you Korean karate".

I'm not the one claiming anything other than what I do is useless.

Still, I suppose I must be the unreasonable one with no understanding...

 

[now disabled]

Having only been practicing Kata for a couple years on a limited part time basis, I can’t wait for the parts relating to defending myself when attacked or about to be attacked.

That should be cool.

Hey you'll be fine thought you were gonna get armour .....lol

 

[now disabled]

You never saw the old Gracie challenge tapes? They used punches and kicks too. Royce Gracie also used kicks and punches in the original UFCs.

Again you quote but don't fully answer ....in the military we had a name for you MUSHROOM

 

[Hanzou]

Again you quote but don't fully answer ....in the military we had a name for you MUSHROOM

What didn't I fully answer? I was merely pointing out that kicking and punching isn't alien to Bjj. In fact, there's plenty of Bjj schools that offer striking classes.

 

[now disabled]

What didn't I fully answer? I was merely pointing out that kicking and punching isn't alien to Bjj. In fact, there's plenty of Bjj schools that offer striking classes.

Oh twist things as you like you always do.

Have you ever actually fought ? and I mean either comp or in the street (oh apart from the disabled hammer wielding kid)

 

[Steve]

Let's be fair here, I'm not the one claiming an "instructor grade" in a system that I can't make work for me.

I'm not the one claiming an "instructor grade" in a system that uses kata as part of training, yet believe that kata are pointless and do or mean nothing.

I'm not the one who spent an alleged 8 years training in a system only to do a couple of judo classes and, based on the outcome of that, write off every striking system (because I can't make it work).

I'm not the one berating other people's chosen system with thinly veiled insults like "whatever it's called in you Korean karate".

I'm not the one claiming anything other than what I do is useless.

Still, I suppose I must be the unreasonable one with no understanding...

Okay. Hold on. There are a couple of problems with your position.

First, you really seem to be suggesting that @Hanzou is wrong because he disagrees with you.
Second, yes, you are being unreasonable (not sure about 'no understanding').
Third, you are making this very personal, which isn't a great way to get your point across. Not only are you personally attacking a poster, you are also taking this very personally, which isn't a good idea.

Finally, the standard for who is allowed to hold an opinion around here is hard to nail down. I think the details are fluid, but it boils down to agreement. If you agree with the poster, his/her opinion is valid. Otherwise, it is not. I can think of examples where a poster's opinion is dismissed because he never trained in that particular art, and times when it's been just fine. Now, even training in the art isn't enough. You must have "made it work" (whatever that means) in order to be credible. I don't buy it.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh twist things as you like you always do.

Have you ever actually fought ? and I mean either comp or in the street (oh apart from the disabled hammer wielding kid)

Yes. I competed at White belt and Blue belt level in Bjj competiton.

 

[now disabled]

Okay. Hold on. There are a couple of problems with your position.

First, you really seem to be suggesting that @Hanzou is wrong because he disagrees with you.
Second, yes, you are being unreasonable (not sure about 'no understanding').
Third, you are making this very personal, which isn't a great way to get your point across. Not only are you personally attacking a poster, you are also taking this very personally, which isn't a good idea.

Finally, the standard for who is allowed to hold an opinion around here is hard to nail down. I think the details are fluid, but it boils down to agreement. If you agree with the poster, his/her opinion is valid. Otherwise, it is not. I can think of examples where a poster's opinion is dismissed because he never trained in that particular art, and times when it's been just fine. Now, even training in the art isn't enough. You must have "made it work" (whatever that means) in order to be credible. I don't buy it.

Bro it is hard not to get pissed off with Hanzou as well he is somewhat of a person that picks things he wants and ignores other things and even when presented with things that are recorded and verifiable it still not good enough as it does not fit what he wants. Sorry but I will side with Pdg on his view

 

[now disabled]

Yes. I competed at White belt and Blue belt level in Bjj competiton.

As you would now say produce the vid evidence