Fighting in schools

[Zumorito]

I don't think the original post said he was pinned against a wall. Regardless of whether he was or not, it was still wrong to punch him: There is a big difference between defending yourself and responding with violence.

ALSO, if I recall correctly, the original post also said that his cousin got in trouble for punching the kid, implying a person of authority was nearby; could have gone over to them; if he was pinned against a wall then he can scream and break away from the bully's grip without hurting him. Bottom line, there are correct ways of handling things and incorrect ways of handling things. My way would have likely resulted in nobody getting hurt and nobody getting in serious trouble and everyone being content. Violence doesn't achieve that.

But there IS a time and a place for violence. When you're in an alley at one in the morning, outside a nightclub with your hands behind your back and a guys got you pinned to a wall being aggressive and threatens to kill you, NO, you do not just stand there. A middle-school environment with undeveloped children in the presence of authority figures who have a disgustingly large amount of influence over your future is NOT a dark alley behind a nightclub against people who want to KILL you. Goofball.

PS: No, fighting shouldn't be mandatory in schools, in my opinion. Learning to calm the mind and seek inner peace should be though, if you ask me. That would solve a lot of the problems right there.

High School is a good time to begin learning how to fight; middle schoolers and elementary kids though should just bloody be allowed to enjoy being kids and not feel like they have to prepare for war; we're the adults, it's OUR job to protect THEM, especially from themselves. Teach your young kids compassion and peaceful resolution; there will be plenty of time for them to learn about the darker side of life when they come of age. What we need, is balance. Light and dark. Yin and yang.

 

[Zumorito]

...There's ways of fighting, without fighting.

 

[Zumorito]

Look up "NSD/Nonviolent Self Defense".

 

[Tez3]

I don't have a problem with teaching people how to fight off bullies but I do think we also need to be teaching people not to be bullies. Too often the opportunities for bullying are given to those who will take advantage of them. Too often those in control allow bullying because it's easier than trying to stop it and often the bullies are those in control.
It's a collective responsibility not just a parental or school one. We need to turn our societies into ones where there aren't bullies to start with. That may sound idealistic but it doesn't stop each one of us playing our part in many ways.
Teaching Social Skills to Prevent Bullying in Young Children | Blog | StopBullying.gov

 

[lklawson]

I don't think the original post said he was pinned against a wall. Regardless of whether he was or not, it was still wrong to punch him: There is a big difference between defending yourself and responding with violence.

Did you miss the part where the victim was ALREADY BEING ASSAULTED? Pushed up against a wall (Assault and Battery) and being struck with "open hands" (Assault and Battery). This is THE VERY LEGAL DEFINITION OF "ASSAULT AND BATTERY."
What Is the Difference Between Assault and Battery?

ALSO, if I recall correctly, the original post also said that his cousin got in trouble for punching the kid, implying a person of authority was nearby; could have gone over to them; if he was pinned against a wall then he can scream and break away from the bully's grip without hurting him.

That is an assumption on your part.

Bottom line, there are correct ways of handling things and incorrect ways of handling things.

Which including being able to exercise reasonable force to defend oneself from Assault and Battery.

My way would have likely resulted in nobody getting hurt and nobody getting in serious trouble and everyone being content. Violence doesn't achieve that.

Well, unless you elaborate on "your way" we can't know for sure but I'm guessing that "your way" would have merely lead to the boy continuing to get his *** kicked (which was already happening).

But there IS a time and a place for violence.

Such as when you are being assaulted and physically attacked ("Battery").

Do you need some more legal references?
https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=25695
Assault, Battery, and Aggravated Assault | Nolo.com
Assault & Battery | Assault vs Battery | Difference Between Assault & Battery
Assault and Battery

PS: No, fighting shouldn't be mandatory in schools, in my opinion. Learning to calm the mind and seek inner peace should be though, if you ask me. That would solve a lot of the problems right there.

Well, we still don't know what your way would have been but it sure sounds like the usual phycho-babble that gets kids asses kicked on an ongoing basis, which doesn't actually solve anything but does help hide the problem and make it look like we're "doing something."

High School is a good time to begin learning how to fight; middle schoolers and elementary kids though should just bloody be allowed to enjoy being kids and not feel like they have to prepare for war; we're the adults, it's OUR job to protect THEM, especially from themselves. Teach your young kids compassion and peaceful resolution; there will be plenty of time for them to learn about the darker side of life when they come of age. What we need, is balance. Light and dark. Yin and yang.

Use the Force, Luke!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Look up "NSD/Nonviolent Self Defense".

OK, I gotta ask. What is your personal experience with bullying and assults in schools and effective vs ineffective responses for the victims?

 

[Zumorito]

So your argument is that because it is LEGAL, it makes it right? I don't agree. When your legal system's definition of assault is merely placing hands on someone who doesn't want to be touched, then by your justification, violence is the solution to someone giving you a push? I'll never see that as the Way.

What's "My Way"? The way of least resistance possible, and avoiding conflict in the first place by developing exceptional situational awareness. Using the aggressor's own force against them, instead of your force on them, if at all possible. Blocking, redirecting, and simply getting out of the way, "When fighting angry blind man, best to just stay out of the way." haha. None of these techniques would have hurt the bully kid, and the kid being bullied would have been able to retreat to a Safety Zone, (firefighter lingo; always keep your LCES up; Lookouts, Communications, Escape routes & Safety zones).

...Just because an action is LEGAL, does NOT make it RIGHT.

 

[Zumorito]

What's my experience with school bullying?

I was bullied in school. I responded in anger, and violence. The school board overreacted, and I was facing charges. Some people approached my parents and told them they had two options, their twelve year old son could go to jail, or he could be placed in a residential treatment center. To protect me from jail, my parents sent me to the suggested center thousands of miles away in Utah. I wouldn't see them again until I was seventeen years old. I was beaten, raped, shanked, drugged, brainwashed, tortured, and experimented on more times than I can count.

Looking back....I really wished my father taught me peaceful conflict resolution, instead of his former military training....I needed a father; not a drill sergeant. Violence RUINED my life....

 

[Zumorito]

....Middle school....twelve years old....this kid could have ended up JUST...LIKE....ME.....that's why I feel so strongly.

 

[lklawson]

So your argument is that because it is LEGAL, it makes it right?

No. I'm saying that if someone is taking illegal and violent action against you, THAT makes it right.

What's "My Way"? The way of least resistance possible, and avoiding conflict in the first place by developing exceptional situational awareness. Using the aggressor's own force against them, instead of your force on them,

That **** doesn't work.

if at all possible. Blocking, redirecting, and simply getting out of the way,

Which still looks like "fighting" to someone watching.

and the kid being bullied would have been able to retreat to a Safety Zone, (firefighter lingo; always keep your LCES up; Lookouts, Communications, Escape routes & Safety zones).

Safe Zones?!?! Those are fantasies.

...Just because an action is LEGAL, does NOT make it RIGHT.

Apparently you misread or read with preconceived notions.

 

[lklawson]

What's my experience with school bullying?

I was bullied in school. I responded in anger, and violence. The school board overreacted, and I was facing charges. Some people approached my parents and told them they had two options, their twelve year old son could go to jail, or he could be placed in a residential treatment center. To protect me from jail, my parents sent me to the suggested center thousands of miles away in Utah. I wouldn't see them again until I was seventeen years old. I was beaten, raped, shanked, drugged, brainwashed, tortured, and experimented on more times than I can count.

Looking back....I really wished my father taught me peaceful conflict resolution, instead of his former military training....I needed a father; not a drill sergeant. Violence RUINED my life....

No. What ruined your life was a bunch of anti-reality idiots with ignorant fantasies about violence and self defense, coupled with equally ignorant and stupid "Zero Tolerance" policies. What happened to you wasn't your fault. It wasn't your dad's fault either. It was the fault of the bully, the school, and the people who insisted on sending you. If you believe in Karma then they've got some very bad times coming.

Nevertheless, I've not seen anything you've yet to suggest which would actually work.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Zumorito]

No. I'm saying that if someone is taking illegal and violent action against you, THAT makes it right.

Is it right to punch someone in the face for slapping you on the cheek? Sure, it's legal, but it seems like an over-reaction to me; seems like you'd just do it simply because you felt they deserved it; perhaps your need for retribution is what truly "makes it right" for you.

That **** doesn't work.

Yes it does. Use common sense. If someone approaches you looking for trouble, walk the other way. Cut across the street instead of walking through the groups of Crips and Bloods on the street. Try not to upset people; dress bland and casually so as to not attract attention to yourself. You can learn how to avoid a whole lot of trouble without ever having to face it head on. It sounds pretty rudimentary, I know, but simply not looking for trouble (or dare I say being eager for trouble so you can justify an assertion of your dominance, hint hint), can save you a whole lot of grief.

Which still looks like "fighting" to someone watching.

Not nearly as much as punching them in the face and destroying them does.

Safe Zones?!?! Those are fantasies.

No they're not; you can have contingencies and back-ups in place; build the right fortress for the right defense. On the Fire Line, it's natural barriers like rivers and rock formations or large wet areas or beaches. Fire can't go to those places. Fire is just like any overwhelming powerful threat; it can be fought and contained; overcame. Just Anchor, Flank, and Pinch.

Apparently you misread or read with preconceived notions.

Maybe. But I'm right.

 

[Zumorito]

I guess you're right though; Violence wasn't what ruined my life. It wasn't the bullies or the school-boards fault; it was the corrupt multi-billion dollar Mormon company that got their hands on me. They're the ones to blame. Still though, if I had just had a little bit more self control, none of all that came next would have ever have happened. I can't help but blame myself a little bit; I was an obnoxious little trouble maker with a short fuse, and I really wished that I could have found another way of handling that situation other than using violence. Same old stuff too; just getting pushed and "playfully" slapped on the sides of my face. Didn't hurt me at all, but it ticked me off and I wanted it to stop so I punched him and he went down screaming to the floor; suddenly I looked like the bad guy.

 

[lklawson]

Is it right to punch someone in the face for slapping you on the cheek?

Yes. Because they are physically attacking.

Sure, it's legal, but it seems like an over-reaction to me; seems like you'd just do it simply because you felt they deserved it; perhaps your need for retribution is what truly "makes it right" for you.

Deserved? Retribution? Again, you're reading in what was not written. I don't know where you got that but I didn't write it and didn't imply it. It's about self defense, not about the other stuff that you've jammed on top of it.

Yes it does.

The hell it does. Your suggestions of "[t]he way of least resistance possible, and avoiding conflict in the first place by developing exceptional situational awareness" absolutely don't work within the context of a school setting. "Least resistance" gets you beaten and you can't "avoid conflict" in the hallway or lunch room. It doesn't work.

Don't assume that I'm speaking from a place of inexperience here. I'm not. I tried that ****. It doesn't work.

Use common sense. If someone approaches you looking for trouble, walk the other way. Cut across the street instead of walking through the groups of Crips and Bloods on the street. Try not to upset people; dress bland and casually so as to not attract attention to yourself. You can learn how to avoid a whole lot of trouble without ever having to face it head on. It sounds pretty rudimentary, I know, but simply not looking for trouble (or dare I say being eager for trouble so you can justify an assertion of your dominance, hint hint), can save you a whole lot of grief.

Crips and Bloods? What the hell are you talking about? This isn't Gang Violence, it's schoolyard fights and bullying. The two aren't the same. And, again, from experience, "just go to the other side of the street" is foolishness that didn't work. They just followed me. It's not like when I went to the other side their feet magically disappeared.

Not nearly as much as punching them in the face and destroying them does.

Destroying them? What the hell are you talking about? Look, I don't know where you're getting half of this stuff. Are you arguing with someone else? I certainly never wrote anything about "destroying" anyone.

No they're not; you can have contingencies and back-ups in place; build the right fortress for the right defense. On the Fire Line, it's natural barriers like rivers and rock formations or large wet areas or beaches. Fire can't go to those places. Fire is just like any overwhelming powerful threat; it can be fought and contained; overcame. Just Anchor, Flank, and Pinch.

Mule Muffins. "Safe Zones" don't work to prevent assaults. I know. I tried using them. I watched other people try to use them. All it means is that any time the victim is not in the "Safe Zone," they're still a victim. They can't live in the "Safe Zone" and there's only one way to carry a "Safe Zone" with you; the way you are opposed to.

Maybe. But I'm right.

If you were right, then it would have worked for me. But it didn't. If you were right, then it would have worked for many other people that I saw. But it didn't. Safe Zones, avoidance, verbal conflict resolution, all of them did jack **** for a friend of mine in High School. He was thin, red haired, and smaller than most others. After gym class, in the locker room, his tormentor, Carlos, would regularly force him into a secluded area between locker rows and then loudly make sounds as if they were having homosexual sex. The purpose was to humiliate the boy, to prove that Carlos had control over him, to establish Carlos' top spot in the male dominance peer order. Who knows where it would have eventually taken it. The boy couldn't avoid the lockers. "Adults" did **** about it. Just trying to "go along," laugh, and make a joke out of it didn't work for the boy, and he did try all of those things. You know what made Carlos stop? ME. After a while I realized that I couldn't just stand by and watch. So I intervened and made Carlos stop.

I had learned my own lessons about what it took to make them stop earlier in my school career. I also tried all of that stuff. Avoidance, leaving the area, trying to joke/make/friends/"understand," telling adults, staying in "Safe Zones" (they didn't call it a "Safe Zone" back then, but it was the same idea). I learned it didn't work.

I'm truly sorry about all the **** that happened to you. I really am. What was done to you was wrong and horrible beyond measure. But the advice you seem to be offering just doesn't work within the confines of the school environment. I wish it did. Man, how I wish it did. It would have make my early school career much nicer.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I guess you're right though; Violence wasn't what ruined my life. It wasn't the bullies or the school-boards fault; it was the corrupt multi-billion dollar Mormon company that got their hands on me. They're the ones to blame. Still though, if I had just had a little bit more self control, none of all that came next would have ever have happened. I can't help but blame myself a little bit; I was an obnoxious little trouble maker with a short fuse, and I really wished that I could have found another way of handling that situation other than using violence. Same old stuff too; just getting pushed and "playfully" slapped on the sides of my face. Didn't hurt me at all, but it ticked me off and I wanted it to stop so I punched him and he went down screaming to the floor; suddenly I looked like the bad guy.

Still not your fault.

Self Defense is a Human Right. If someone does all that horrible crap that happened to you for simply exercising a basic Human Right, then that is a travesty of justice.

You didn't do anything wrong.

If this is the first time you've heard that then I'm sorry you had to wait so long to be told that, yes, you do have basic rights to prevent other people from assaulting and abusing you. You were screwed by the system and it makes me sad to see that it happened to you. Doubly a victim.

 

[Zumorito]

Yep...Still gonna try to solve things without violence though. If nothing else, just because I'm sick of violence. Coming back home one of the first things I learned about kids my age as they like acting violent just for fun; fake-punches towards your face, obnoxious hollering, jokes about fighting; I ended up dropping out of regular High School after hearing a group joking about rape. High School felt like a disgusting place that's not for smart people, so I dropped out after five days, got my GED then immediately got a job working for the government as an FFT2 for the DOF. That did a lot of good for me; helped teach me how to work under pressure and center myself when rocketing down the highway towards a mushroom cloud. In the winter months I take up working for the VFD and running into building fires instead of wild fires. Good training. I think I'm more into the intellectual/zen/spirituality aspects of martial training. To me martial arts is just all about "how to conquer". Ho to conquer your mind and body, how to conquer the minds and bodies of those who seek to cause you harm, how to conquer mother nature itself...doesn't seem like a discipline, so much as a Way of Life. ...I think freedom means "No fear.". I can't wait until I'm not scared of the world anymore.

 

[JR 137]

Keep in mind that a lot of us here are old guys who haven't stepped foot in a high school for a few decades. A lot has changed since I graduated in '94. Some things haven't.

I think overall, the bullying as we saw/lived it has decreased quite a bit. The schools aren't as cliquey as they were when I was there - jocks, heads, nerds, stoners, preps, etc. Kids are far more accepting of each other now, especially of special needs kids. Of course there's still the bullies, but more kids stand up for the kids being bullied nowadays.

What really changes the game is the cyber bullying. Far more goes on there and spills over into school than you can imagine.

I know this stuff because it was culture shock to me going back to teach at my old high school 19 years after I graduated. Perhaps where I was was unique, but I highly doubt it.

As for the locker room stuff, locker rooms were probably monitored better than anywhere else. When I taught there was was always 1, and usually 2 teachers in the locker room whenever students were in there. I guess my school learned their lesson.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think overall, the bullying as we saw/lived it has decreased quite a bit.

I think it has become more brutal both physically and emotionally. When I was in school it was unthinkable that a student would actually attack a teacher. Now it's no big deal and not a surprise when it happens. Fighting in school back then also wasn't so restricted where a person defending him or herself from harm would be punished as if they are the problem. Cyber bullying is small compared to the "in your face" verbal assaults. Literally if someone is bullying another online then that person can hit ignore or just not socialize on that website. When I was in school, there was no off button and I had to face bullies and their harassment or possible harassment every day.

I'm always like WTF? when people say they are getting bullied online and they can't take it anymore. Not sure where kids logic is but I wish my days of standing up to bullies came with all the options that kids get to handle Cyber Bullies.

The biggest difference for me where I went to school is probably my freedom to punch a bully in the mouth was encouraged where no we try to be "civil."

Not sure what went wrong but many of today's kids have a logic where they don't understand consequence.

 

[Zumorito]

Violence has increased because the severity of the consequences have increased. Back in the day, as I think you mentioned, kids could get into fights and it was no big deal. It's not that way anymore though after 9/11 and Columbine or Virginia Tech. Nowadays kids can face imprisonment for even threatening someone or assaulting someone; they get they're whole futures messed up by the System now. This is supposed to deter violence, supposedly, but what it does instead, is force kids to suppress their rage and ignore threats instead of finding solutions to them. This causes the child's anger to build up and swell inside of him like a balloon until one day he decides to bring a gun or a knife to school; ready to kill the next bully that crosses his path. All because the legal consequences for violence scare children into holding it all in until it explodes out all over the place like a hand grenade.....Kids aren't allowed to be kids anymore. And it's not right.

 

[Juany118]

Tell him to press charges and sue the school for not protecting him.

Yes, I'm serious. Once a lawyer gets in on it, even if the case sucks, schools will often decide that they can use discretion after all.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

If the account is true the above is true. Here is the thing schools have basically been forced to have "zero tolerance" violence policies. Doesn't matter how, who, what, where or why, that is the initial reaction. However, if one parent threatens to take them out of the Schools District Administrative realm into a Court of Law, where there are set burdens of proof vs a "because we say so" standard, suddenly things change.