fighting a faster opponent

[JR 137]

As a larger person, taking them to the ground and pinning/choking/locking them is always an option.

That's an option for a larger, smaller, or equal sized person. But everything has its time and place. In a parking lot, alley, or anywhere else that you're reasonably sure there won't be outside help from his buddies, have at it. In the middle of a bar, outside the bar, or anywhere else where there's a crowd, not very wise. I've seen more than enough kicks to the face/head and bottles to the back of the head of ground fighters.

Yes, while standing, you absolutely have the risk of being attacked from behind you from his friends. But at least you're not a sitting duck and can get away quicker. Engaging in a jujitsu match in where there's a good chance of outside interference is suicide IMO.

 

[drop bear]

That's an option for a larger, smaller, or equal sized person. But everything has its time and place. In a parking lot, alley, or anywhere else that you're reasonably sure there won't be outside help from his buddies, have at it. In the middle of a bar, outside the bar, or anywhere else where there's a crowd, not very wise. I've seen more than enough kicks to the face/head and bottles to the back of the head of ground fighters.

Yes, while standing, you absolutely have the risk of being attacked from behind you from his friends. But at least you're not a sitting duck and can get away quicker. Engaging in a jujitsu match in where there's a good chance of outside interference is suicide IMO.

Go look a sucker punch compilation. Standing up is really not the determining factor.

 

[Lameman]

The last three people who tried to sucker punch me, one inverted elbow, one dislocated shoulder, and one slit wrist. Two of those were not important fights. It was all just reflex. If I don't see it coming, I've trained with assumed maximum threat. Sucker punches don't work on everyone. What is important, know your situation, know your opponant(s), know yourself. If these things are all known, the fight will tend to be rather one sided.

 

[JR 137]

Go look a sucker punch compilation. Standing up is really not the determining factor.

What does a sucker punch have to do with the thread? I was commenting on facing a faster opponent.

I also said "Yes, while standing you absolutely have the risk of being attacked by his friends..." Pretty much covers the sucker punch, right?

If you're arguing being on the ground makes you less susceptible, I disagree. Perhaps from an actual punch to the face. I've seen far more sucker punch-esque stuff thrown at people in the mount and guard than when they're standing, proportionately speaking.

 

[Lameman]

These generic, "how do you fight a short, fat, cross-eyed, bald man with a gimpy arm" bs only helps for the first few seconds, and only if your pre-judgement is accurate. Which in my experience... hasn't been. How often have you gone into a fight, completely ignorant of your opponant, and they fought exactly as expected? Everything will work some of the time. The trick is knowing what will work this time. Yo learn that , by understanding yourself. Study, structure, how weight is carried and how it moves. Energy how you gather, store, move, release, recieve. Then you put those together and get movement potential. Know all of your options at any given pico-second. Once you can see those three things in yourself, seeing them in an opponant becomes second nature. No matter how good you are at hiding your intent, your body will tell your secrets. From there, phychology. Learn to recognize how they like to fight and defend. Combine with the first three things, now you are several moves ahead. Screw tells I know what you will do when. You no longer can hit me and I can hit with impunity. That is fighting. Techniques are just a means to an end.

 

[drop bear]

What does a sucker punch have to do with the thread? I was commenting on facing a faster opponent.

I also said "Yes, while standing you absolutely have the risk of being attacked by his friends..." Pretty much covers the sucker punch, right?

If you're arguing being on the ground makes you less susceptible, I disagree. Perhaps from an actual punch to the face. I've seen far more sucker punch-esque stuff thrown at people in the mount and guard than when they're standing, proportionately speaking.

Yeah but your personal experience doesn't really reflect the amount of people who get attacked by third party combatants while standing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but your personal experience doesn't really reflect the amount of people who get attacked by third party combatants while standing.

I think the salient point is that you can be sucker punched standing or on the ground. If I'm standing, I can release the first guy to evade the punch if I see it. On the ground tied up with someone, I can't move to evade a kick, and that kick can be much harder to block well. All in all, I'm better off up than down if a second attacker enters the fight. If I don't see them, I'm probably just as likely to get hit in either case. However, I'd still give a slight edge to the standing situation there, too, since most people can kick to KO much more effectively than they can punch to KO, so I have a marginally higher chance of getting to respond.

Of course, if you're a ground-grappler first, then that changes the dynamics - perhaps on the ground is better in almost any case (leaving out the extremes like broken glass). You'd be more in control of the situation down there, and more likely to end it before a second attacker decides to step in. I think it's a matter of degrees, rather than huge differences. I'd be hard pressed to say that a generic person is just as safe on the ground (or "just as screwed standing") if a second attacker steps in, but the difference may not be as extreme as gut reaction implies.

 

[JR 137]

Yeah but your personal experience doesn't really reflect the amount of people who get attacked by third party combatants while standing.

I've seen A TON of people standing get sucker punched. Trust me, I haven't seen any shortage of it. Two guys standing and fighting each other, someone else gets into the mix quite often. Completely unverifiable number here - about half the time. How often has someone kicked a guy in the guard, hit a guy in the mount in the back of the head with a bottle, etc.? About 99% of the time; again completely unverifiable.

I saw a lot of stuff bartending in college bars on weekend nights for the better part of 10 years, and being a guy in the bar for quite a few years too.

What I saw over the years could be a completely isolated thing, or it could be indicative of everywhere. No idea. I just know what I saw. Over and over again. Same things happened at concerts, festivals, etc. Maybe times have changed, as I haven't frequented bars in the last 10+ years, but I doubt everything has changed that much.

From what I've seen and where I've been, if an intruder came into my house, attacked me in a parking lot with no one else around, etc., I'd take him down or throw him using stuff I learned wrestling, and mount and fire punches like there's no tomorrow until the threat was completely neutralized. No doubt about it.

Whenever I've had no choice but fight inside or outside the bar or other public places, I've made sure I stayed on my feet and could easily face anyone else coming at me. Have I been blindsided by someone else? Absolutely. Was I able to get out of the way to avoid follow ups? Absolutely. I wouldn't have that luxury on the ground. About 10 years of wrestling and 6 more of coaching on the mat gives me enough experience with grappling to know I can't get easily away from repeated kicks to my head while I'm grappling with someone. I'm pretty much stuck. And I think there's a psychological thing that tells people to jump in when the fight goes to the ground far more than when 2 people are standing. But that's another thread.

For me, the best place to be in a fight is on my feet with my opponent on the ground, conscious or unconscious.

All my personal experience and opinions. I'm sure others have contradicting experience. Go with what you've seen, not what you've heard. I'm just one of the countless guys on countless forums.

 

[Hanzou]

The moral of the story is don't fight more than one person if you can help it.

If you do end up fighting more than one person, do everything in your power to disable as many of them as possible. That may require an arm or leg break on the ground.

 

[drop bear]

As a larger person, taking them to the ground and pinning/choking/locking them is always an option.

I think the salient point is that you can be sucker punched standing or on the ground. If I'm standing, I can release the first guy to evade the punch if I see it. On the ground tied up with someone, I can't move to evade a kick, and that kick can be much harder to block well. All in all, I'm better off up than down if a second attacker enters the fight. If I don't see them, I'm probably just as likely to get hit in either case. However, I'd still give a slight edge to the standing situation there, too, since most people can kick to KO much more effectively than they can punch to KO, so I have a marginally higher chance of getting to respond.

Of course, if you're a ground-grappler first, then that changes the dynamics - perhaps on the ground is better in almost any case (leaving out the extremes like broken glass). You'd be more in control of the situation down there, and more likely to end it before a second attacker decides to step in. I think it's a matter of degrees, rather than huge differences. I'd be hard pressed to say that a generic person is just as safe on the ground (or "just as screwed standing") if a second attacker steps in, but the difference may not be as extreme as gut reaction implies.

It is situational. Giving up a takedown and potentially free shots in gnp. Vs maybe being trapped on the deck.

 

[JR 137]

The moral of the story is don't fight more than one person if you can help it.

If you do end up fighting more than one person, do everything in your power to disable as many of them as possible. That may require an arm or leg break on the ground.

There's several morals of the story...

Don't fight anyone if you can avoid it.
The situation will dictate how you address it.
Watch your back, and count on someone else watching your opponent's back.
Do what you know; don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole. If you don't know submission (I don't), don't work for a tap out; if you don't know how to strike, don't get into a Muay Thai match.
End it as quickly, efficiency and quietly as possible.

So much easier said than done.

 

[Lameman]

And those are pretty much the rules as I was taught them. An if you can learn to do breaks and dislocations, one handed, while standing, that's a lot better then doing it on the ground and lets you keep your guard up against the impending bat to the head. True story.

 

[Skullpunch]

Depending on the situation and your skillset your best bet is probably something along the lines of the following.

1) Takedown and dominate on the ground.

2) Bully him from the clinch

3) Focus your attack on the body and the legs as you force him into a corner or whatever else is available to obstruct his movement.

If you don't want to be on the ground for fear of potential accomplices, a combination of 2 and 3 is what I would do. On the outside I would utilize some movement and force him to come to me - he has to go through my range in order to get into his range so with proper timing I can land on his legs and body which will deplete his movement and stamina. By the time he gets into his range I can tie up and bully him from the clinch, where his speed advantage will be anywhere from depleted to negated and fighting your way out of a clinch against a larger, skilled opponent tends to drain a lot of stamina which will further negate the speed advantage.

This strategy is similar to what they call "making a muddy track" in boxing, where your opponent is a sprinter and his speed can pose problems but you can negate the speed advantage by not giving him a solid track to run on, make it muddy by cutting off the ring which gives you a degree of control over his movement, and work the body and utilize clinch work to drain his stramina.