Few techniques to beat many...

[Argus]

I would have to disagree about experience not being the best teacher.After you have a firm understanding of your art experience is what you need and only that experience can push you forward as a martial artist and for the art you represent. one example IMO is Wong Shun Leung. Without all his fighting exerience he would not be the man he was.

Right. But, what made WSL great in my opinion was not just his experience, but his aim of applying Wing Chun's core principals pragmatically.

It's very possible to take the wrong things away from experience. I've seen a lot of guys who modify their Wing Chun in ways that are not very congruent with the system's aims and core principals, because they find it "works for them." Others still develop bad habits that lead to success in the short term, but hinder their development in the long run, such as trying to speedily execute sloppy combinations, or just using strength.

I'm not a die-hard purest when it comes to technique in Wing Chun, but I am when it comes to it's core principals. Wing Chun is an art with a very specific aim and approach to fighting. And it's somewhat counter intuitive, and takes a lot of work to apply those principals pragmatically. But people can become good at anything they do, with time and experience, and that's why I think many people "get good" at "bad" Wing Chun through lots of sparring or chisau.

In short, you need to cultivate the right kind of experience.

And more than that, we need to recognize when our experience is simply too limited to draw on reliably. Dylan obviously based his opinion off of one month of training at a single Wing Chun school. Now, I'm sure he has far broader exposure to, and far more experience with Silat. His opinions are colored purely by his limited experience. I'm sure if he met some top-notch WC guys - preferably one kicking his *** - he would have a positive change in opinion

 

[KPM]

Nevermind that I might agree with you, but just let him go. What do we care what uninformed people think.

---Yep. Good advice. Its obvious he isn't listening to what we're saying and is here for only one purpose. Ignore the trolls!

Now let's get this thread back on track. I can think of numerous examples of a simple technique that short circuit a variety of attacks.

---My next nominee is the simple, common Pak Sau! If you watched clip #4 of my recent series you'll have seen me talk about the Pak Sau. In Pin Sun WCK every solo set has a way to be practiced within the Pak Da drill. So we do this drill as often as we do Chi Sau...maybe more often! This means that we are doing LOTS of Pak Sau's and really "burning them into the system." So a beginner gets a feel for Pak Sau and a straight punch before anything else. So if he/she needs to use Wing Chun in a real situation before they've had time to learn very much, Pak Sau should be the main "go to" defensive move. With your hands out in front in any kind of guard position, a Pak Sau with some footwork can be used to keep just about any punch from hitting you. Even a wide swinging punch can be stopped with a good Pak Sau. This ends up being on the inside, so isn't the best answer as it leaves you vulnerable to the opponent's other hand...but it can be done. A Pak Sau/Gum Sau (which is essentially the same thing on a little different angle) can also be used to trap or pin an opponent's arm at the elbow in various circumstances. A Pak Sau "straightened out" is a palm strike! So essentially it can be used offensively as well as defensively.

 

[KPM]

In short, you need to cultivate the right kind of experience.

Exactly! For example. I was visiting a farm last weekend and the owner had two very large Newfoundland Retrievers playing in the meadow beside his house. There was a car full of people already in the driveway but none of them dared to get out of the car. I've been around dogs all my life and I know Newfies. I just walked right up, didn't freak out at all when both dogs came charging up to me, and proceeded to hug, pet, and play with both of them! After watching this for about 5 minutes, the people in the car slowly and cautiously got out of the car and came over to take pictures of me playing with the dogs! These were people that likely didn't grow up with dogs as pets, and maybe had a negative experience with a dog as a child and had the impression that all big dogs are dangerous. Their experience obviously didn't serve them well in this case. ;-)

 

[Dylan9d]

Always funny to watch at Wing Tsun

 

[Argus]

Exactly! For example. I was visiting a farm last weekend and the owner had two very large Newfoundland Retrievers playing in the meadow beside his house. There was a car full of people already in the driveway but none of them dared to get out of the car. I've been around dogs all my life and I know Newfies. I just walked right up, didn't freak out at all when both dogs came charging up to me, and proceeded to hug, pet, and play with both of them! After watching this for about 5 minutes, the people in the car slowly and cautiously got out of the car and came over to take pictures of me playing with the dogs! These were people that likely didn't grow up with dogs as pets, and maybe had a negative experience with a dog as a child and had the impression that all big dogs are dangerous. Their experience obviously didn't serve them well in this case. ;-)

Wow. That's bizarre. Is it that common for people not to have ever had any contact with dogs before? They must've all been city-slickers!
Retrievers in general are pretty much just pure playful bundles of love and fur. I love 'em

 

[geezer]

Always funny to watch at Wing Tsun

Thanks a lot dude. I'm actually in this clip (the compliant uke knocked to the floor at 1:56 -2:08). Not one of my more distinguished moments!







...Then again the footage is over 30 years old. BTW, LT could be a real clown. Always doing crazy, unrehearsed demos and hamming it up like a bad actor in an old Shaw Bros. flick. But if you think he didn't know his stuff, you are seriously mistaken.

 

[Kwan Sau]

---My next nominee is the simple, common Pak Sau!

...a Pak Sau with some footwork can be used to keep just about any punch from hitting you.

...Even a wide swinging punch can be stopped with a good Pak Sau.

...it can be used offensively as well as defensively.

I completely agree with these statements

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Always funny to watch at Wing Tsun

Lol what's he like flicking his hair? Hilarious!

Seriously dude, what exactly are you hoping to accomplish with your "contributions" to this thread?

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Thanks a lot dude. I'm actually in this clip (the compliant uke knocked to the floor at 1:56 -2:08). Not one of my more distinguished moments!







...Then again the footage is over 30 years old. BTW, LT could be a real clown. Always doing crazy, unrehearsed demos and hamming it up like a bad actor in an old Shaw Bros. flick. But if you think he didn't know his stuff, you are seriously mistaken.

Kudos!

 

[Marnetmar]

Always funny to watch at Wing Tsun

Mother of god, what the hell was that?!

 

[futsaowingchun]

Right. But, what made WSL great in my opinion was not just his experience, but his aim of applying Wing Chun's core principals pragmatically.

It's very possible to take the wrong things away from experience. I've seen a lot of guys who modify their Wing Chun in ways that are not very congruent with the system's aims and core principals, because they find it "works for them." Others still develop bad habits that lead to success in the short term, but hinder their development in the long run, such as trying to speedily execute sloppy combinations, or just using strength.

I'm not a die-hard purest when it comes to technique in Wing Chun, but I am when it comes to it's core principals. Wing Chun is an art with a very specific aim and approach to fighting. And it's somewhat counter intuitive, and takes a lot of work to apply those principals pragmatically. But people can become good at anything they do, with time and experience, and that's why I think many people "get good" at "bad" Wing Chun through lots of sparring or chisau.

In short, you need to cultivate the right kind of experience.

And more than that, we need to recognize when our experience is simply too limited to draw on reliably. Dylan obviously based his opinion off of one month of training at a single Wing Chun school. Now, I'm sure he has far broader exposure to, and far more experience with Silat. His opinions are colored purely by his limited experience. I'm sure if he met some top-notch WC guys - preferably one kicking his *** - he would have a positive change in opinion

Only a person with considerable hard training and experience can fully understand what wing chun is. Someone like WSL trained his whole life and fought with wing chun and made it better. A person like that IMO is a true master.

 

[Danny T]

geezer, looks like my instructor and me many years ago. Difference was I was not compliant. His remarks, "Dan you pretty good, you fall down pretty good. Get up and let's do it again."
Did it many times with me hitting the floor most every time. Was quite sometime before I could keep standing. Perfected my falls and rolls though.

 

[Danny T]

Ok now you are summing up all my replies, good, but what about the responses before that, this whole discussion started of with me posting my views on VT and in relation to the title of the topic, wich was also the reason i had nothing to find in the art of VT or WC. The point beeing that VT couldn't add anything to what i had learned already. I have still enough to learn in life and in martial arts because nobody is perfect. Hell im raising a 5 year old boy on my own, puts your right in your place and throws everything you know overboard

So you are showing a half picture here.

Yea, I quoted what you were stating during the conversations of this discussion even the first that you posted concerning the OP. In all of them you obviously do not like or feel wc has anything to help you grow and that it is only good against inexperienced persons or other wc practitioners. As I stated you don't like wc or you can't function with in it. Ok.

As to, "but what about the responses before that". Uh, you got me there. Before what? This discussion? I am responding to your comments within this discussion. Where is the half picture?

All of the arts are good, just different. I happen to know for me wing chun is good and I can use it, have used it against several different martial artists from silat, tai chi, muay thai, JKD, shotokan, hapkido, boxing, kali systems, judo, and just to name a few; so have my wc brothers and I have my students do the same. You didn't have a good experience with it and don't like it. Ok, got it.

Many in the wc community do not go outside their systems to learn and to test their abilities just as many in the other arts also don't. My wc family does, we test against as many different systems we can. In my wc family my instructor requires all of us to train in other systems in order to know how to use wc against them. We don't talk about training against other systems or arts we don't have our wc brothers act like a muay thai fighter or a boxer, we actually train and spar muay thai fighters and boxers and there are other wc families that also do so. You simply have not interacted with them.

All the best with your training in silat. Which by the way I agree can be a very good training system even though I have encounter some very poor silat practitioners.

 

[Dylan9d]

Yea, I quoted what you were stating during the conversations of this discussion even the first that you posted concerning the OP. In all of them you obviously do not like or feel wc has anything to help you grow and that it is only good against inexperienced persons or other wc practitioners. As I stated you don't like wc or you can't function with in it. Ok.

As to, "but what about the responses before that". Uh, you got me there. Before what? This discussion? I am responding to your comments within this discussion. Where is the half picture?

All of the arts are good, just different. I happen to know for me wing chun is good and I can use it, have used it against several different martial artists from silat, tai chi, muay thai, JKD, shotokan, hapkido, boxing, kali systems, judo, and just to name a few; so have my wc brothers and I have my students do the same. You didn't have a good experience with it and don't like it. Ok, got it.

Many in the wc community do not go outside their systems to learn and to test their abilities just as many in the other arts also don't. My wc family does, we test against as many different systems we can. In my wc family my instructor requires all of us to train in other systems in order to know how to use wc against them. We don't talk about training against other systems or arts we don't have our wc brothers act like a muay thai fighter or a boxer, we actually train and spar muay thai fighters and boxers and there are other wc families that also do so. You simply have not interacted with them.

All the best with your training in silat. Which by the way I agree can be a very good training system even though I have encounter some very poor silat practitioners.

You know as we get annoyed sometimes by people we put responses on a forum that if we think about it are a bit too harsh.

I don't dislike WC, i don't dislike WC practitioners and i do realise that the art is as good as it's practitioner but i do love the way how some people jump up like a nest of flees when you say something about their chosen art.

The art of Wing Chun or Ving Tsun is just not to my taste, thats what it boils down to.

I think the way your instructor is letting you train is good Danny. And yes there are very very poor Silat practitioners out there, enough charlatans, but thats in all types of martial arts.

 

[KPM]

but i do love the way how some people jump up like a nest of flees when you say something about their chosen art.

---"a nest of flees (sic)"???? The reaction here has been very mild and polite compared to what it would have been on another forum I could name! ;-)

The art of Wing Chun or Ving Tsun is just not to my taste, thats what it boils down to.

---That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But then why are you continuing to post in a Wing Chun forum and push the point to Wing Chun guys? Go and preach your point in the Silat forum and you will likely get a better reception. Do you honestly believe if one of us was in the Silat forum saying exactly what you are saying but about Silat rather than Wing Chun that we would have gotten a different response?

---But here I am feeding the troll again. Sorry guys!

 

[Dylan9d]

but i do love the way how some people jump up like a nest of flees when you say something about their chosen art.

---"a nest of flees (sic)"???? The reaction here has been very mild and polite compared to what it would have been on another forum I could name! ;-)

The art of Wing Chun or Ving Tsun is just not to my taste, thats what it boils down to.

---That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But then why are you continuing to post in a Wing Chun forum and push the point to Wing Chun guys? Go and preach your point in the Silat forum and you will likely get a better reception. Do you honestly believe if one of us was in the Silat forum saying exactly what you are saying but about Silat rather than Wing Chun that we would have gotten a different response?

---But here I am feeding the troll again. Sorry guys!

Wow somebody gets the title "troll" really easy with you don't they?

If someone criticizes something they are a troll?
You having it really tough in real life i guess.


You should make a movie about that instead of your so called Youtube lessons.

 

[KPM]

Wow somebody gets the title "troll" really easy with you don't they?

If someone criticizes something they are a troll?
You having it really tough in real life i guess.

.

Yes. You made your point. You said what little you have to say. Anyone that continues to come to a forum just to cause trouble is simply a troll. It has nothing to do with the quality of my life.

 

[Marnetmar]

Yes. You made your point. You said what little you have to say. Anyone that continues to come to a forum just to cause trouble is simply a troll. It has nothing to do with the quality of my life.

I disagree with your opinion and here's why =/= troll

Why can't we have an honest discussion of the problems W.C faces without resorting to woo or personal attacks? I'm starting to think that WC's English name should be Cognitive Dissonance instead of Eternal Spring.

 

[Argus]

You should make a movie about that instead of your so called Youtube lessons.

"So called youtube lessons"? That's awfully low.

You have to admit, you're acting a bit like a troll. Why else post comments like these, or try to stir up trouble by posting a silly LT video? You pretend to want to take part in a meaningful discussion, but you haven't contributed constructively to this thread even once. All you've done thus far is try to provoke people and get under their skin, and then you criticize them for biting your bait. What's up with that?

 

[Argus]

I disagree with your opinion and here's why =/= troll

Why can't we have an honest discussion of the problems W.C faces without resorting to woo or personal attacks? I'm starting to think that WC's English name should be Cognitive Dissonance instead of Eternal Spring.

I'm all for that, but I don't think such a discussion interests Dylan in the first place. Nor does he frankly know enough about WC to partake in it meaningfully. I'd rather hear from knowledgeable WC practitioners who test their stuff. Maybe then we can have a meaningful discussion, in a new thread, as opposed to just trying to derail random threads with general, undirected doubts about the effectiveness of WC as a whole.