A round without techniques

[skribs]

1. one has 1 grip while another has no grip - 1 is ready, another is not.
2. both have grips on each other - both are 100% ready.

Not all grips are equal. We may have grips, but my grips are set to stall yours and yours aren't set to stall me.

Pins are a position where the top player often is ready when the bottom player isn't.

 

[skribs]

I don't have a lot of explosive strength or cardio, so I very rarely attempt explosive escapes. When I'm stuck on the bottom, I'm continually fighting micro-battles to improve my position by wiggling to get on my side, wedge in frames, fight grips, change angles, create space, and test my opponent's balance and movement patterns. When I escape, it's generally because I've won enough of those micro-battles to carry out a reversal or guard recovery without expending excess energy.

I think I have been doing this, the problem is I'm often taught methods that require explosion to get out of (by people who are significantly stronger than me). I took more of this approach again today and I think I feel it working for me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Pins are a position where the top player often is ready when the bottom player isn't.

If this is true, then why "pull guard" is used in BJJ?

 

[drop bear]

If this is true, then why "pull guard" is used in BJJ?

Guard is not a pin.

Or it is a pin. But for the bottom guy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Guard is not a pin.

Or it is a pin. But for the bottom guy.

Assume both A and B are BJJ black belt (same level). If A applies pull guard on B, who will have advantage?

 

[drop bear]

Assume both A and B are BJJ black belt (same level). If A applies pull guard on B, who will have advantage?

In guard.

The guy on the bottom.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In guard.

The guy on the bottom.

In BJJ, is it true that the person who has legs wraps around the other's waist will have advantage no matter he is on top or on the bottom?

The body slam counter for jump guard may be an exception.

photo host

 

[drop bear]

In BJJ, is it true that the person who has legs wraps around the other's waist will have advantage no matter he is on top or on the bottom?

The body slam counter for jump guard may be an exception.

photo host

There are almost no submissions from inside guard. You basically have to pass guard to get a sub.
(Unless you are a sociopath and hit can openers)

There are quite a few from guard.

 

[skribs]

If this is true, then why "pull guard" is used in BJJ?

As Drop Bear said, pulling guard is not a pin. Pins are dominant positions where you don't have a pin.

Assume both A and B are BJJ black belt (same level). If A applies pull guard on B, who will have advantage?

Generally pulling guard is a slight advantage. However, it's not enough of an advantage that it's worth any points. You have to pull guard and then do something with it (sweep or submission) to get anything out of it in a tournament.

It depends on the guard, and on how well the guard is established. Closed guard is generally pretty dominant. Half guard is one that the bottom player could have a big advantage (if their hips are active and they have an underhook) or the top player could have the advantage if they effectively turn it into a pin by controlling the opponents shoulders and hips.

It becomes a bigger issue if slams or strikes are allowed. These are typically not allowed in BJJ, but will be allowed in MMA. This is a big part of why guard awards zero points in BJJ. Points in BJJ are awarded based on how advantageous your position would be in a real fight or MMA fight. Guard is 0 points, but there are attacks you can make. Knee-on-belly, mount, and back are the only scoring positions. You also score 2 points for advancing position through a take-down, sweep, or guard pass.

In BJJ, is it true that the person who has legs wraps around the other's waist will have advantage no matter he is on top or on the bottom?

The body slam counter for jump guard may be an exception.

photo host

The hand gesture the referee made is a penalty. This was not an allowed technique.

This is also another one of your hunts for a "gotcha".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The hand gesture the referee made is a penalty. This was not an allowed technique.

If the "jump guard" counter "body slam" is too risky, why not make the "jump guard" illegal move instead of making the "body slam" illegal move?

 

[skribs]

If the "jump guard" counter "body slam" is too risky, why not make the "jump guard" illegal move instead of making the "body slam" illegal move?

You can body slam without having the person jump guard.

Also, a lot of schools do ban the body slam (along with flying scissors, and any other technique with uncontrolled bodyweight). It's illegal for white belts in IBJJF competitions.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In BJJ, is it true that the person who has legs wraps around the other's waist will have advantage no matter he is on top or on the bottom?

Just to clarify some terms before I start ...

Full guard is the position where the person on bottom has their legs wrapped around the waist of the person on top.
The inverse of full guard is mount, where the person on top is sitting on the waist or chest of the person on bottom. For mount, the top person generally does not want their legs wrapped all the way around the waist of the person on bottom, as this would both be uncomfortable and also limit their own ability to move.

In a real fight, where strikes and slams are allowed, the person on top of closed guard has an advantage, but not an overwhelming one. In a typical* sport BJJ tournament where strikes and slams are not allowed, then the person on bottom of closed guard has an advantage, but not an overwhelming one.

In either a real fight or a sport grappling match, top of mount is significantly dominant over the bottom.

So in a real fight

Top of mount >>>>>top of closed guard>>bottom of closed guard >>>>>bottom of mount

In typical BJJ tournament:

Top of mount >>>>>bottom of closed guard>>top of closed guard >>>>>bottom of mount

*(I say typical because there are multiple BJJ competition rulesets and occasionally you find a tournament that allows slams or limited striking.)

If the "jump guard" counter "body slam" is too risky, why not make the "jump guard" illegal move instead of making the "body slam" illegal move?

Traditionally BJJ tournaments allowed jumping guard but not the body slam because it showcased the techniques that were most uniquely emblematic of BJJ - playing from guard. However this was never without controversy in the BJJ community. Some people have pointed out, as you did, that slamming someone who jumps guard on you is the natural correct counter in a fight. Some people point out that injuries also can happen from competitors jumping guard incorrectly. Some people feel that jumping guard (or pulling guard, which is different) makes it too easy for practitioners to learn proper takedown skills.

There are a number of solutions which have been tried. A few tournaments allow slams. Some ban jumping guard (or at least ban it for lower belt levels). Some penalize the guard puller pointwise. At this time, most BJJ tournaments still ban slams and allow jumping guard without penalty, but this may change in the future.

BTW, I generally don't teach my students to jump guard. I want them to have a skillset that will transfer as seamlessly as possible between self-defense, MMA, and various sport grappling rulesets. I don't want them to develop habits that might give them a marginal advantage in one particular competition ruleset but that will get them killed in a real fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So in a real fight

Top of mount >>>>>top of closed guard>>bottom of closed guard >>>>>bottom of mount

Thanks for the information. If a student has learned pull guard and jump guard, why does that student need to learn any throw at all? IMO, pull guard and jump guard are all you will need to drag your opponent down. If your opponent is more than happy to go down to the ground with you, your throw will be meaningless.

So, my question is "Will drag down replace throw?"

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks for the information. If a student has learned pull guard and jump guard, why does that student need to learn any throw at all? IMO, pull guard and jump guard are all you will need to drag your opponent down. If your opponent is more than happy to go down to the ground with you, your throw will be meaningless.

So, my question is "can drag down replace take down (throw)?"

Here you have hit on one of the bigger controversies in modern BJJ.

In pure BJJ sport competition, under the most common rulesets, you can just pull guard instead of learning to throw. Becoming skilled at throws and takedowns is takes a lot of time and hard work. Under typical BJJ rules, it doesn't get you much advantage. You only get two points for the takedown and your opponent can negate those points by pulling guard before you execute the takedown. If a competitor doesn't come into BJJ with a prior background in wrestling or Judo, then it makes sense from a min-maxing standpoint to just spend all that time and work getting better a grappling on the ground. Many people who only care about BJJ sport competition will do just this.

The downside of this is for those who view BJJ as a martial art and not just a particular kind of specialized sport. Practitioners who only know how to pull guard are losing the ability to fight effectively using BJJ. Even if you manage to drag an uncooperative opponent to the ground in a fight using a guard pull, you're putting yourself in an inferior position.

From this we get semi-humorous comments in some corners of the BJJ community about "don't be a filthy guard puller" and "every time you pull guard, God kills a kitten."

It does get more nuanced than this. In the heyday of the Gracie challenges, representatives of the Gracie family would always try to get the takedown and be on top in a fight. But if they couldn't get the takedown (because the opponent was a better wrestler or was too big and strong), then they would often settle for pulling guard because they were betting that their superior skill on the ground would more than make up for the initial disadvantage in position. You don't see this so often in modern MMA because all the fighters know how to fight on the ground and the danger of the inferior position is generally not worth it.

There are also modern pure sport BJJ competitors who are putting together strategies based on chaining together takedowns and guard pulls. The reason is that even in pure BJJ grappling, pulling guard doesn't mean that you achieve a solid, dominant guard position. Part of the game is controlling grips and positioning so that you compromise the structure of your opponent's guard in the moment that they initiate the guard pull. But the movements that keep you from being pulled into a solid guard can leave you open for a takedown and the movements that defend a takedown can leave you open for a good guard pull. I'm not personally well-versed in this strategy, but I think it's a more well-rounded approach to the sport.

Since my focus is on BJJ as a martial art, I teach my students to always strive to be on top. Guard work is important, but it's the failsafe for when the other person takes you down or reverses you. It allows you to still be dangerous if you're stuck on your back, but that doesn't mean you want to be stuck on your back.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Since my focus is on BJJ as a martial art,

What percentage of BJJ guys will treat BJJ as the path and MMA as the goal? More than 50%, or less than 50%? Do you think BJJ will require MMA record for their BB testing requirement in the future?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What percentage of BJJ guys will treat BJJ as the path and MMA as the goal? More than 50%, or less than 50%? Do you think BJJ will require MMA record for their BB testing requirement in the future?

It's hard to say. I just have my personal experience, but there are millions of BJJ practitioners around the world. I suspect that at least half, if not more, of practitioners are primarily just interested in sport grappling. But there are plenty of others who want to be able to fight and defend themselves.

(There are also those who think that pure sport grappling is sufficient for being able to fight, even though they never even spar with punches. I personally think they are deluding themselves.)

Only a small minority of practitioners will ever get into MMA competition. That's a super demanding sport which takes a serious toll on the body. MMA style sparring in the gym is one thing, but actual fights are much tougher.

I started training BJJ around age 35. I had a couple of amateur Muay Thai fights in my late 30s. I got my BJJ black belt at age 50. If an MMA competition record had been a requirement, I would never have been promoted. Even if I had put in the work to be competitive against fighters half my age, the athletic commission would never have licensed me at that age.

 

[skribs]

(There are also those who think that pure sport grappling is sufficient for being able to fight, even though they never even spar with punches. I personally think they are deluding themselves.)

Depends on what type of fight you're talking about.

If you're talking MMA that's one thing. If you're talking about a random streetfight, you just need to survive a few untrained punches before you can close in and take it to the ground.

Look at how well boxers do in situations with a bunch of guys trying to fight them. They don't have the kicks or grappling skills, but they get KO after KO after KO. They are so dominant in one area that they don't need the others for that low level of an opponent.