Stationary leading rollback

[windwalker099]

Peter Ralston, a noted figure in the development of full-contact fighting, presents a concept he calls "stationary leading rollback."
What he outlines aligns with the principles described in

" **Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"** by Tang Fengchi.

**Real and Virtual Contact Points**
Real contact points refer to physical touch where the practitioner's internal energy connects with the opponent's energy. However, the two forces remain distinct, like the saying, "well water does not mix with river water." Virtual contact points, on the other hand, may or may not involve physical touch. Instead, the connection is established through intent and awareness, allowing the practitioner to control the opponent’s center of energy (zhong). "

***
Shang Shou (上手) translates literally to "upper hand" or "superior hand."
emphasizes the importance of sensitivity, timing, and positioning. It represents the practitioner’s
ability to sense and respond to changes in the opponent’s energy (jin) with precision.

 

[Same Trick]

ive seen this guy mentioned occasionally but have no idea who or what he does and where he come from. So I just now looked up, found a bio on him.
WW do you know him ? It seem he’s also a San Franciscan.
The Bio I read it seems he studied about everything and it seems a little too much in a sense that he actually studied too little something as Jack of all trades, the bio mentions he studied with Wong Jackman which sounds legit, but he only stayed two or three years with him at age 19-20 yet claim to have mastered all….because he’s kind of a martial arts genius(yes the bio hint at this)??

 

[windwalker099]

ive seen this guy mentioned occasionally but have no idea who or what he does and where he come from. So I just now looked up, found a bio on him.
WW do you know him ? It seem he’s also a San Franciscan.

Never met him directly.
Have corresponded with him a long while back.

He studied under Wong JackMan in SF...
Have a good friend who studied under Peter...back in SF..

Read his first book, Effortless Power a long while back..good read..

The Bio I read it seems he studied about everything and it seems a little too much in a sense that he actually studied too little something as Jack of all trades, the bio mentions he studied with Wong Jackman which sounds legit, but he only stayed two or three years with him at age 19-20 yet claim to have mastered all….because he’s kind of a martial arts genius(yes the bio hint at this)??

He was known, around the same time as Bruce Kumar Frantzis "bagua"..

Many of Peter's, ideas could be said to be an updated version of the taiji classics


..
" Peter Ralston was born in San Francisco but raised primarily in Asia. He began studying martial arts at the age of 9 in Singapore. By the age of 20 he had black belts in Judo, Jujitsu, and Karate, had been Sumo champion at his high school in Japan, Judo and fencing champion at UC Berkeley, and had demonstrated proficiency in Kempo, Ch’uan Fa, and Northern Sil Lum Kung Fu. A growing interest in the “internal” martial arts lead him to study T’ai Chi Ch’uan, Hsing I Ch’uan, and Pa Kua Chang.

Ralston has pursued this endeavor with a passionate determination for more than 40 years. He sought out and studied with the world’s most demonstrably skilled teachers, broadening his study with such arts as Aikido, Japanese and Chinese fencing, western boxing, Muay Thai (Thai boxing), and new levels of his own investigations into all of these arts. His exceptional commitment (often practicing for more than eight to ten hours a day) and depth of study, along with his intense meditation and open inquiry have led Ralston to profound levels of skill and understanding."



He proofed his work, knowing others would question it...in the martial tradition of the past.


"Intent on revealing the depth and power of this work, in 1978 he became the first non-Asian ever to win the World Championship full-contact martial arts tournament held in the Republic of China."

Now known as Taiwan.

"

I wanted to create an art based on fundamental observations of physics, perception, intent, impulse, and energy — an art that gears itself to meet any situation because it is founded on understanding the principles in which interaction takes place.

I wanted an art that would be adaptable and well-designed, forged through training and techniques but designed to teach something beyond the form.

The Art of Effortless Power is such an art.

~Peter Ralston

 

[Same Trick]

Never met him directly.
Have corresponded with him a long while back.

He studied under Wong JackMan in SF...
Have a good friend who studied under Peter...back in SF..

Read his first book, Effortless Power a long while back..good read..



He was known, around the same time as Bruce Kumar Frantzis "bagua"..

Many of Peter's, ideas could be said to be an updated version of the taiji classics


..
" Peter Ralston was born in San Francisco but raised primarily in Asia. He began studying martial arts at the age of 9 in Singapore. By the age of 20 he had black belts in Judo, Jujitsu, and Karate, had been Sumo champion at his high school in Japan, Judo and fencing champion at UC Berkeley, and had demonstrated proficiency in Kempo, Ch’uan Fa, and Northern Sil Lum Kung Fu. A growing interest in the “internal” martial arts lead him to study T’ai Chi Ch’uan, Hsing I Ch’uan, and Pa Kua Chang.

Ralston has pursued this endeavor with a passionate determination for more than 40 years. He sought out and studied with the world’s most demonstrably skilled teachers, broadening his study with such arts as Aikido, Japanese and Chinese fencing, western boxing, Muay Thai (Thai boxing), and new levels of his own investigations into all of these arts. His exceptional commitment (often practicing for more than eight to ten hours a day) and depth of study, along with his intense meditation and open inquiry have led Ralston to profound levels of skill and understanding."



He proofed his work, knowing others would question it...in the martial tradition of the past.


"Intent on revealing the depth and power of this work, in 1978 he became the first non-Asian ever to win the World Championship full-contact martial arts tournament held in the Republic of China."

Now known as Taiwan.

"

I wanted to create an art based on fundamental observations of physics, perception, intent, impulse, and energy — an art that gears itself to meet any situation because it is founded on understanding the principles in which interaction takes place.

I wanted an art that would be adaptable and well-designed, forged through training and techniques but designed to teach something beyond the form.

The Art of Effortless Power is such an art.

~Peter Ralston

yes his martial arts CV looks almost too impressive.
That he couldn’t find all those fundamental things he mentions his own martial art creation contain in any of those martial arts he practiced previously sounds strange, especially when his teachers themselves were highly skilled.

The world championships he won, well this may be telling at what level that was -

“During the warm up for his first fight, his
Korean opponent saw him doing boxing warm ups. In one warm up, Ralston was hitting a badge on his student’s lapel with one hand twice before his student could block his arm. His Korean opponent for round one decided not to fight Ralston,”


Peter Ralston

Peter Ralston

 

[windwalker099]

The world championships he won, well this may be telling at what level that was -

Did you read about it ?

What does it tell you about the level ?

That he couldn’t find all those fundamental things he mentions his own martial art creation contain in any of those martial arts he practiced previously sounds strange, especially when his teachers themselves were highly skilled.

Why does it sound strange?

His teachers were highly skilled, by what measure ?

 

[Same Trick]

Did you read about it ?

What does it tell you about the level ?

Why does it sound strange?

His teachers were highly skilled, by what measure ?

Participants that qualified for a world championship don’t chicken out and leave just seeing opponents warmups, something sound fishy.

It sound strange because he had to create his own martial art so to have all the basic components ……that any martial already have.

His early teacher he claim was Wong Jackman(although only for about 2 or so years) ,the guy that famously beat Bruce Lee.
So WJM should be considered legit as a teacher with skill …?

In his bio it say he grew up in Asia/Japan.
But being so interested in martial arts it seems during that time he actually never studied martial arts in Japan, but won a sumo contest at the American school were he was a student…. It all sound a bit strange.

 

[windwalker099]

Sounds strange .
Many things seem that way until you actually check them out.

He was highly regarded in his time

You might question the process of his self-inquiry leading him to achieve mastery in his work— could make for interesting reading.


Felt that some of Peter's work reflected what was written

**Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"** .
by Tang Fengchi.

**Real and Virtual Contact Points**
Real contact points refer to physical touch where the practitioner's internal energy connects with the opponent's energy. However, the two forces remain distinct, like the saying, "well water does not mix with river water."

Virtual contact points, on the other hand, may or may not involve physical touch.

Instead, the connection is established through intent and awareness, allowing the practitioner to control the opponent’s center of energy (zhong). "

My work reflects this approach. The idea that Peter presented is quite similar—it involves "leading" the other’s intent by not allowing it a place to settle. In doing so, one can prompt the other to react through their own actions or to respond based on what they sense even before any physical contact occurs.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Peter Ralston, a noted figure in the development of full-contact fighting,

According to whom? Sorry, I found that demo very underwhelming.

Regardless of his actual credentials he definitely doesn't show up anywhere in the history of full contact fighting, there's no video, and 1978 People's Republic of China was not even promoting that sort of thing.

It's trivial to find full contact video from 1978, so where's the video of the "first non-Asian"....sounds like Frank Dux.

 

[Same Trick]

According to whom? Sorry, I found that demo very underwhelming.

Regardless of his actual credentials he definitely doesn't show up anywhere in the history of full contact fighting, there's no video, and 1978 People's Republic of China was not even promoting that sort of thing.

It's trivial to find full contact video from 1978, so where's the video of the "first non-Asian"....sounds like Frank Dux.

Republic of China 1929 full contact tournament-

The 1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament

This kind of spectacle was later brought to the areas such as Taiwan and Hong Kong/Macau as can be seen in the famous 1954 thrilla in Macau

https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/cm...ge-match-tai-chi-vs-white-crane-recorded-1954

My guess is that the 1978 fullcontact tournament in (by some called)the Republic of China looked not very different .
So quite a far cry from the 1978 full contact that was going on in Japan, USA and Europe

 

[marvin8]

Peter Ralston, a noted figure in the development of full-contact fighting, presents a concept he calls "stationary leading rollback."
What he outlines aligns with the principles described in

" **Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"** by Tang Fengchi.

**Real and Virtual Contact Points**
Real contact points refer to physical touch where the practitioner's internal energy connects with the opponent's energy. However, the two forces remain distinct, like the saying, "well water does not mix with river water." Virtual contact points, on the other hand, may or may not involve physical touch. Instead, the connection is established through intent and awareness, allowing the practitioner to control the opponent’s center of energy (zhong). "

***
Shang Shou (上手) translates literally to "upper hand" or "superior hand."
emphasizes the importance of sensitivity, timing, and positioning. It represents the practitioner’s
ability to sense and respond to changes in the opponent’s energy (jin) with precision.

I agree with and brought up the same concept before...

Which is why I changed the order of the 5 skills in the process of taiji fighting—controlling the opponent starting from the furthest distance (1-4 can be done without touch).

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

In sparring/fighting, one wants to listen and control their opponent from the furthest distance away, enter then finish. Ranges can be defined in various ways e.g., kicking, striking, wrestling and locking and/or safe zone, fight zone and borders.

“Boxing is the art of hitting your opponent with the maximum amount of leverage from the furthest distance possible while exposing the least of yourself.” — Kenny Weldon


There is a point where both fighters can touch each other. However, there is another point before contact is made where one may listen and control their opponent. I have an advantage if I can listen and control you before the "stick point," get you double weighted then enter and finish.

In MMA, Tai Chi's fighting skills lure, listen, control and dissolve can be done without bridging ...

In most contact sports (e.g., MMA, boxing, soccer, football, baksetball), an opponent's energy is sensed and controlled before contact is made...

It's common for fighters to control their opponent from a distance without touch. These are soft skills using no force.

Per NTUMA, an example of ling kong jin is Michael Jordan controlling his opponent without touch...

NTUMA Martial Arts
Mar 2, 2021

Do you really have volley power??
(Click CC and set to English captions.)

Taichi Laboratory, Taichi In Science
Dec 15, 2022

Why we only see tai chi today without fighting ability? The following video is about the famous champion “Mike Tyson…” Don’t be misled by kung fu movies…

OK!!! What is relationship between counter punch and tai chi? Why I use so much time to explain it? The essence of tai chi is counter punch. Someone familiar with counter punch will not attack at any moment! Only attack when his enemy starts to attack.

Let’s see the following video. This is a move of tai chi. It's called Bang lang chue. You can see the person with black shorts [Lyoto Machida]. He does an empty skill (let his enemy lose control of this body) then fight back. This video is a very good expression of Yin Jin Ro Kong (empty skill). Through the video from beginning, you can see the value for Empty skill. Why tai chi teach people so hardly to practice empty skill? The above video shows you the answer. We empty the enemy (let him lose his balance control) with contact.

To create a good chance to do the counter punch at that moment, Tyson uses another way to empty his enemy "without" contact. Keep the distance. Use fast reaction ability of body to dodge enemy's attack. If dodging is success, it can create empty state of his enemy and attack at this moment. The way of tai chi to empty is contactness. We touch enemy's body and empty him. It needs unity and soft body.

Why Tyson chooses to use empty without contact? Because, empty with contact is more difficult. Once you have contact with your enemy, his power will affect your control to your body, you will use power passively. We will try to move our enemy with power by instinct. Try to move his body, let him loose control of his body ( fight fire with fire). But the result is opposite, we lose our control to body. This is what I mentioned before, the problem of "force bridge."

What makes counter punch so powerful is we let our enemy lose body control and have full control of our body at the same time. By this way, you can get the result "KO with one punch." Once you use power when contact happens, there is no tai chi at all.

Back to the original question, why tai chi can't be used to fight? The answer is easy. You don't have strong body to use tai chi. It's a kind of high difficulty skill to use. It depends on real fighting experience. The timing to use. Familiar to the move. The expectation is very high. To get the benefit of tai chi, the conclusion is there is no good or bad about the skill. A punch without any skill still can kill sb. There is no reason that tai chi doesn't work in fighting. The point is to understand the advantage and disadvantage of tai chi to get higher tai chi skill…

 

[windwalker099]

I agree with and brought up the same concept before...

Appreciate the points you've made and detailed explanations, the theory behind how and why it happens is not the same. Even though Peter Ralston's demonstration echoes similar sentiments, what he is doing is not identical.
The reason for the strategy used is the same, the reactions are not...

This distinction is important in that the training and methods used to develop this phenomenon outlined in the underlying theory presented in

Understanding the State of "Shang Shou" by Tang Fengchi.

based on a different understanding of how the mind/body interaction works....

 

[windwalker099]

My guess is that the 1978 fullcontact tournament in (by some called)the Republic of China looked not very different .
So quite a far cry from the 1978 full contact that was going on in Japan, USA and Europe

Your guess?

Might try reading what happened to those in the match.

Not here to defend his work, or history.
He was well-known in the 1970s, found his work interesting—aligning with my own thoughts and experiences.

 

[marvin8]

Appreciate the points you've made and detailed explanations, the theory behind how and why it happens is not the same. Even though Peter Ralston's demonstration echoes similar sentiments, what he is doing is not identical.
The reason for the strategy used is the same, the reactions are not...

The concept is the same. Your interpretation, training methods and techniques may differ from others (e.g., NTUMA, Taichi Laboratory).

This distinction is important in that the training and methods used to develop this phenomenon outlined in the underlying theory presented in

Understanding the State of "Shang Shou" by Tang Fengchi.

based on a different understanding of how the mind/body interaction works....

Do you have video evidence of anyone using this theory with “different” reactions in non-compliant fighting?

"Intent on revealing the depth and power of this work, in 1978 he became the first non-Asian ever to win the World Championship full-contact martial arts tournament held in the Republic of China."

Peter is not demoing high level luring (deception) and controlling skills…

 

[windwalker099]

(by some called) the Republic of China looked not very different .

By “some “

In the 1970s, Taiwan was officially known as the people’s republic of China.

Until they were not

They being a sovereign state at the time didn’t seem to have much say either way

 

[windwalker099]

The concept is the same. Your interpretation, training methods and techniques may differ from others (e.g., NTUMA, Taichi Laboratory).

Have you trained in the methods outlined ?
What is the basis of "your" interpretation ?

Do you have video evidence of anyone using this theory with “different” reactions in non-compliant fighting?

Dr. Carl Sagan once said, “Absence of Evidence does not mean Evidence of Absence”
I speak from experience....btw, I do have videos...as do others...

The post was about the similarities in thought and approach.
Not about Peter, although he was used as an example of someone using some of the same ideas.

Shang Shou is zero
This concept echoed by various high-level masters of tai chi in their time.

Thought others might find it interesting reading ...

"Shang Shou is zero, it is Taiji, it is central equilibrium, and it is “Hun Yuan” (primordial unity.

This central state is not geometrically defined—it is not the central axis, the center of gravity, the
dantian, or any other specific point. Rather, it is a state of internal equilibrium—a balance of
internal energy (nei jin)."

Real and Virtual Contact Points
Real points refer to physical contact where the internal energy connects with the opponent’s
energy. However, the two forces remain distinct, like “well water does not mix with river
water. ” Virtual points, on the other hand, may or may not involve physical contact, but the
connection is established through intent and awareness, allowing the practitioner to control the
opponent’s center of energy (zhong)."

Peter is not demoing high level luring (deception) and controlling skills…

based on what ?
A clip of him interacting with a student ?
Do you think this is some kind of boxing match ?

looks like playful training to me, could be wrong..

 

[marvin8]

Have you trained in the methods outlined ?
What is the basis of "your" interpretation ?

Answer my question first, yes or no?

The concept is the same. Your interpretation, training methods and techniques may differ from others (e.g., NTUMA, Taichi Laboratory).


Do you have video evidence of anyone using this theory with “different” reactions in non-compliant fighting?

 

[windwalker099]

Answer my question first, yes or no?

answered already, might try reading the post..

 

[marvin8]

answered already, might try reading the post..

Oh, great! Please post one of those fight videos.

The concept is the same. Your interpretation, training methods and techniques may differ from others (e.g., NTUMA, Taichi Laboratory).


Do you have video evidence of anyone using this theory with “different” reactions in non-compliant fighting?

 

[Same Trick]

I agree with and brought up the same concept before...



In most contact sports (e.g., MMA, boxing, soccer, football, baksetball), an opponent's energy is sensed and controlled before contact is made...

Yes, this is such a common, that’s why I found it strange Ralston not found it in all the martial arts he practiced but felt he had to create “his own” method to being able addressing it

 

[Same Trick]

Your guess?

Might try reading what happened to those in the match.

Not here to defend his work, or history.
He was well-known in the 1970s, found his work interesting—aligning with my own thoughts and experiences.

i remember back when I still had YouTube at hands I saw a match from a full contact tournament in Taiwan, it’s a long time ago I saw that vid but I remember one of the combatant holding the characteristic Bagua pose trying circle walk his opponent, attacks and defense were no better than that shown in the 1954 Macau gongfu masters fight.

I can agree that Ralston might not hav found the essence of the arts in his learning Chinese martial arts, it seem he didn’t hang on to long to get to any depth in the TCM, had to take a “short cut” training in some regular boxing gym to get it, something like that