Fantasy Martial Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

Story time.

We had some gun BJJ black belts rock up to our no gi class. During drilling out purple belt was coaching them.

Then he found out they were gun black belts and apologised. The response was. "No that is good everyone has something to teach"

This is what fundamentally drives BJJs progression forwards faster than a style that has to wait for advancements to be filtered down from the beurocracy.

This is because more people are actively advancing the progression of the style. It is a basic numbers game.

Interesting. I viewed the NGAA as having a pretty strong hierarchy, but saw most of the innovation come from individual schools (from the experienced folks in them), rather than from further up in the hierarchy. Fine-tuning came from higher up, and innovation came from experienced students and individual instructors.

I do think that a hierarchy can stifle some innovation - it's one of the reasons I haven't rejoined the NGAA, in spite of an invitation to do so. I prefer to have the freedom to do as I see fit with the curriculum.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Story time.

We had some gun BJJ black belts rock up to our no gi class. During drilling out purple belt was coaching them.

Then he found out they were gun black belts and apologised. The response was. "No that is good everyone has something to teach"

This is what fundamentally drives BJJs progression forwards faster than a style that has to wait for advancements to be filtered down from the beurocracy.

This is because more people are actively advancing the progression of the style. It is a basic numbers game.

Another thought - one of my personal gripes is that too few students understand that the folks above them don't actually get everything right. I'm rarely corrected (or even questioned) on my technique by even purple belts when I visit someone's school (where I participate as a student). I'd expect a purple belt to have some good thoughts I don't have - I remember hearing those when I was a purple belt.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Another thought - one of my personal gripes is that too few students understand that the folks above them don't actually get everything right. I'm rarely corrected (or even questioned) on my technique by even purple belts when I visit someone's school (where I participate as a student). I'd expect a purple belt to have some good thoughts I don't have - I remember hearing those when I was a purple belt.

To have a lower belt correct an upper belt would be something that many egos couldn't deal with. Then you have the time and place for correction. Something have to be corrected after class as not to put the instructor in an uncomfortable position.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To have a lower belt correct an upper belt would be something that many egos couldn't deal with. Then you have the time and place for correction. Something have to be corrected after class as not to put the instructor in an uncomfortable position.

Remember that when I'm there, I'm not there as an instructor (though that's a fuzzy distinction to the students). I'm working directly with one or two people, usually the same ones for the entire class. I'm just not a fan of training partners not giving that feedback. IME, that's only a (large-ish) step away from falling because they are "supposed to".

 

[JowGaWolf]

Remember that when I'm there, I'm not there as an instructor (though that's a fuzzy distinction to the students). I'm working directly with one or two people, usually the same ones for the entire class. I'm just not a fan of training partners not giving that feedback. IME, that's only a (large-ish) step away from falling because they are "supposed to".

I don't mind learning and I've been wrong before, so I encourage students to let me know if I made a mistake or not. My Sifu used to say things wrong just to see if we would correct him. He saw the ability of a student to recognize an error from the instructor a good thing. He says that means that we understand what we are seeing, understand the technique, and have learned what was taught.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't mind learning and I've been wrong before, so I encourage students to let me know if I made a mistake or not. My Sifu used to say things wrong just to see if we would correct him. He saw the ability of a student to recognize an error from the instructor a good thing. He says that means that we understand what we are seeing, understand the technique, and have learned what was taught.

I think it also shows the students have their brains turned on, rather than just taking in what the instructor says without consideration.

 

[KPM]

Here is another article from Rackemann for you guys not to like. The theme is related to the other 2 articles on this thread.

Why Traditional Martial Artists can’t beat MMA Fighters (but could) - Rackemann Wing Chun

 

[Juany118]

Here is another article from Rackemann for you guys not to like. The theme is related to the other 2 articles on this thread.

Why Traditional Martial Artists can’t beat MMA Fighters (but could) - Rackemann Wing Chun

Well really all that article says is what most of us have been saying for a while, if you boil it down. How do you make TMA's work in multiple contexts?
1. real pressure testing via sparring/free fighting/occupation.
2. pressure test against other styles and not insularly.

At the beginning it does, to an extent, make a point I ma been trying to make for a while though. MMA has, to an extent, become a fighting style in and of itself. In the early years it was a hot bed of innovation but it has, with a few exceptions become kinda static (UFC Gyms everywhere anyone?) The few people that go outside the box (Sylva, Machida, Jones, McGregor) do very well by going outside the "MMA Box" but that seems to often be dismissed by other fighters and coaches as "they are/were just so good they could get away with it." In short it's almost as if MMA is slowly but surely falling into the same trap too many TMAs have.

 

[Rich Parsons]

That conclusion seems odd to me. He was talking about the study of martial arts when he made those points, not the writing of articles on a blogsite. And it seems odd to disregard an article based upon the composer's writing abilities rather than his actual points.

The Author's points were to avoid fakes and they provided examples. In providing the examples they did in the manner they told you to avoid.
So I should believe the snake oil sales person because someone wrote about an article about Big Pharma?

KPM - it is a free site and as long as we all follow the rules we can express our opinions.

I find it odd, that one cannot apply logic to all things in their life and be consistent. If you choose to be inconsistent and or to allow those poor arguments to stand in your life that is cool for you. Not for me.

So to me it seems odd to not pay attention to my well written summary and opinion on a poorly written article that is inconsistent. His proved that he should not be paid attention too by his points. So In following that logic I will ignore him and continue to apply logic to my life and my choices.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here is another article from Rackemann for you guys not to like. The theme is related to the other 2 articles on this thread.

Why Traditional Martial Artists can’t beat MMA Fighters (but could) - Rackemann Wing Chun

This is a much better article. He doesn't come off as if he's upset about something. The reading of it is much cleaner. There is a big difference between this article and the other previous articles. The fact that I made it all the way through this article is a good sign.


This quote from the article "I blame traditional martial arts not performing so well because of poor development of the fighting attributes, not ineffective techniques." This is a yes and no type statement. If you actually go into a traditional martial arts school you will see that many of the adult students don't care about the fighting. I do think however, this applies to many youth taking martial arts. In a world where many parents are over protective, it's common to see martial arts schools cater to the nature of being weak vs being physically conditioned to be tough. I think many schools (for financial reasons) decided to pick one form of training over another. In other words they began to cater to those who really don't want to learn how to fight, instead of making sure that they could provide lessons for both the students that don't want to fight and the students who want to fight.

 

[KPM]

The Author's points were to avoid fakes and they provided examples. In providing the examples they did in the manner they told you to avoid. So I should believe the snake oil sales person because someone wrote about an article about Big Pharma?

---"They"....they who? What are you even talking about? Maybe you are referring to this statement by Rackemann at the beginning of the a article?

Though these false statements made by martial arts instructors and students alike, are not always done intentionally. More often than not the source of their claims originate out of ignorance.

---He then provided a list of things to look for that might signal a "fantasy martial art" if the statements made were indeed false. He didn't say it applied to every martial art other than his own. He just provided a list of possible warning signs to watch out for. If they don't apply to you, then why are you taking such offense at it?

KPM - it is a free site and as long as we all follow the rules we can express our opinions.

----Well sure. I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion. I just said it seemed odd that it appeared you were disregarding the points he made in the article simply because you didn't like the way he wrote it.


I find it odd, that one cannot apply logic to all things in their life and be consistent. If you choose to be inconsistent and or to allow those poor arguments to stand in your life that is cool for you. Not for me.

----Why are you acting all "butt hurt"? I haven't been inconsistent about anything.

So to me it seems odd to not pay attention to my well written summary and opinion on a poorly written article that is inconsistent.

---Is this the "well written summary and opinion" you are talking about?

One can make those points.
I just thought it was overly long which is one of the points the article says to avoid.
I found that some of the points were argued around and not directly head on - which is another point the article said to avoid.
So if you followed half the article one would not read the article at all
The hypocrisy and inconsistencies made me frustrated and thinking it was poorly written.

As to needing to test your techniques or pressure test I agree.
As to needing to work with those outside your circle to do that to see different angles and techniques and perspectives then yes.

Yet, there was a lot of fluff to say what I said in two lines.

---No offense, but I think you may be criticizing someone else's writing style while over-estimating your own.



His proved that he should not be paid attention too by his points. So In following that logic I will ignore him and continue to apply logic to my life and my choices.

---So, you are saying that just because you took offense at his list of "warning signs" and disagree with them, you feel that everyone should just ignore his points and not read his article? You've determined that he is a "snake oil salesman" without even really considering his points? But you are lecturing me about "logic' and "life choices" and such?

 

[geezer]

Based on JowGa's comments above, I gave this second article a read. Much better than the first. Nothing all that new or earth-shaking, but on the mark IMO. Interesting enough to make me want to go to Youtube and check out what this guy, Rackemann does. He calls his stuff "Wing Chun Boxing", so I think I'll post it on KPM's Wing Chun Boxing thread and see what you guys think.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Based on JowGa's comments above, I gave this second article a read. Much better than the first. Nothing all that new or earth-shaking, but on the mark IMO. Interesting enough to make me want to go to Youtube and check out what this guy, Rackemann does. He calls his stuff "Wing Chun Boxing", so I think I'll post it on KPM's Wing Chun Boxing thread and see what you guys think.

I'll definitely be on that thread when you get it started. I have lots to say after watching his video.

 

[drop bear]

Well really all that article says is what most of us have been saying for a while, if you boil it down. How do you make TMA's work in multiple contexts?
1. real pressure testing via sparring/free fighting/occupation.
2. pressure test against other styles and not insularly.

At the beginning it does, to an extent, make a point I ma been trying to make for a while though. MMA has, to an extent, become a fighting style in and of itself. In the early years it was a hot bed of innovation but it has, with a few exceptions become kinda static (UFC Gyms everywhere anyone?) The few people that go outside the box (Sylva, Machida, Jones, McGregor) do very well by going outside the "MMA Box" but that seems to often be dismissed by other fighters and coaches as "they are/were just so good they could get away with it." In short it's almost as if MMA is slowly but surely falling into the same trap too many TMAs have.

There are other advancements being made than just crazy obvious stuff.

For example. Our single leg footwork is exactly the same as our double leg footwork. Doesn't look like much. But what it does is streamlines the transition between striking and grappling. My penetration step is my striking then I can decide based on opportunity which takedown I hit.

And in my opinion a much more impactfull innovation than crane kicks.

 

[Juany118]

There are other advancements being made than just crazy obvious stuff.

For example. Our single leg footwork is exactly the same as our double leg footwork. Doesn't look like much. But what it does is streamlines the transition between striking and grappling. My penetration step is my striking then I can decide based on opportunity which takedown I hit.

And in my opinion a much more impactfull innovation than crane kicks.

The thing is though what you describe, in general, isn't unique to MMA. The "penetration step" and what you do next is in many a TMA that includes both striking and grappling. It isn't really an innovation it's always been there. If it wasn't I would not have find myself saying "do I want to "just trap and strike, or do I want to grapple and take down" with my Wing Chun.

Now I am not saying the following is YOUR mindset but more than a few in the MMA community seem to be doing the same thing they accuse TMAs of doing, namely not having an open mind and adapting things from other styles. The big complaint about TMA's is/was that they are insular, that they look to improve based on what is already "in the system." The same thing has not been uncommon with many an MMA coach for a bit now. Where MMA used to be about looking for the techniques that work across the multitude of Martial Arts, now there is a tendency to look at what you have and simply refine or create a new variation based on what already exists. The same thing that was/is the criticism of many a TMA.

This is what happens when something that was once "free form" ends up "working." There is a tendency in every human endeavor to say "if it isn't broke don't fix it." That is a practical axiom but it also has complications attached.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here is another article from Rackemann for you guys not to like. The theme is related to the other 2 articles on this thread.

Why Traditional Martial Artists can’t beat MMA Fighters (but could) - Rackemann Wing Chun

This one I like a lot better. It matches my experience and observations pretty well.

 

[anerlich]

more than a few in the MMA community seem to be doing the same thing they accuse TMAs of doing, namely not having an open mind and adapting things from other styles. The big complaint about TMA's is/was that they are insular, that they look to improve based on what is already "in the system." The same thing has not been uncommon with many an MMA coach for a bit now. Where MMA used to be about looking for the techniques that work across the multitude of Martial Arts, now there is a tendency to look at what you have and simply refine or create a new variation based on what already exists. The same thing that was/is the criticism of many a TMA.

Have you actually spent a significant amount of time with any successful MMA coaches? Because your generalisations here don't fit my experience at all.

I am acquainted reasonably well with four successful MMA coaches, two of whom are UFC veterans. I see and train with one of them several times a week, and work out with his MMA fighters.

These guys are CONTINUALLY seeking out new material, technique, training protocols, equipment. And continually going to or bringing in other coaches. My BJJ coach, who runs the oldest MMA gym in Sydney, has had visiting US wrestlers, a Judo 6th Dan, boxers, kickboxers, combatives teachers, etc. etc, teaching their stuff at the gym for periods of months. He's spent time with my WC instructor, who was also his BJJ student for quite a while. He's continually going to seminars and having visitors in to help tweak his game and widen his perspective on multiple fronts..

I am acquainted with a couple of 5th degree black belts, one of whom was also Royce Gracie's S&C coach for the early UFCs. Both are travelling extensively looking for people to help improve their skills in particular areas. One just spent a period in the US upgrading his leglock game to world class. The other goes to places like Mongolia and Russia seeking wrestling and conditioning knowledge, despite being one of the longest running and best known fight conditioning coaches on the planet.

One of my training buds won an MMA title with a gogoplata (as an avid observer of MMA, you'll know what that is). Another female fighter from my gym is on her second trip to JacksonWink - they have equipment and innovative training protocols that most TMA guys have not even heard of. She has a pretty sweet spinning hook kick to the head in her arsenal as well.

Do you really think coaches like Firas Zahabi, John Danaher, and Jackson / Winklejohn are sticking to what they know? They are innovators, very good at what they do, and go to MMA because smart people go where the money is. Jiu Jitsu, which is a major part of MMA, is continually evolving, inside multiple rule sets. The evolution of TMAs and their training methods have moved with glacial slowness in comparison.

Most good MMA coaches are too busy learning and innovating to bother criticising TMA's. Time is limited and they do not wish to waste it on unproductive pursuits. I suggest you follow their example and not worry about what people outside your selected domain might be doing, or saying.

 

[Juany118]

Have you actually spent a significant amount of time with any successful MMA coaches? Because your generalisations here don't fit my experience at all.

I am acquainted reasonably well with four successful MMA coaches, two of whom are UFC veterans. I see and train with one of them several times a week, and work out with his MMA fighters.

These guys are CONTINUALLY seeking out new material, technique, training protocols, equipment. And continually going to or bringing in other coaches. My BJJ coach, who runs the oldest MMA gym in Sydney, has had visiting US wrestlers, a Judo 6th Dan, boxers, kickboxers, combatives teachers, etc. etc, teaching their stuff at the gym for periods of months. He's spent time with my WC instructor, who was also his BJJ student for quite a while. He's continually going to seminars and having visitors in to help tweak his game and widen his perspective on multiple fronts..

I am acquainted with a couple of 5th degree black belts, one of whom was also Royce Gracie's S&C coach for the early UFCs. Both are travelling extensively looking for people to help improve their skills in particular areas. One just spent a period in the US upgrading his leglock game to world class. The other goes to places like Mongolia and Russia seeking wrestling and conditioning knowledge, despite being one of the longest running and best known fight conditioning coaches on the planet.

One of my training buds won an MMA title with a gogoplata (as an avid observer of MMA, you'll know what that is). Another female fighter from my gym is on her second trip to JacksonWink - they have equipment and innovative training protocols that most TMA guys have not even heard of. She has a pretty sweet spinning hook kick to the head in her arsenal as well.

Do you really think coaches like Firas Zahabi, John Danaher, and Jackson / Winklejohn are sticking to what they know? They are innovators, very good at what they do, and go to MMA because smart people go where the money is. Jiu Jitsu, which is a major part of MMA, is continually evolving, inside multiple rule sets. The evolution of TMAs and their training methods have moved with glacial slowness in comparison.

Most good MMA coaches are too busy learning and innovating to bother criticising TMA's. Time is limited and they do not wish to waste it on unproductive pursuits. I suggest you follow their example and not worry about what people outside your selected domain might be doing, or saying.

My comments are based on two different experiences. First yes I do have fairly regular contact with some of them a coaches but admittedly they are the ones teaching at the UFC branded gems so I would not be surprised if in a part of their motive for saying such things is the marketing of their gym. The other is just reading interviews with MMA coaches and self-declared experts where they criticize traditional martial arts globally or at best will acknowledge the effectiveness only of TMAs (or their derivatives) that are combat sports on their own. 9435 in this case as in most I would never say that my anecdotal experience is emblematic of the whole.. I am heartened to see however that your experience appears to be vastly different than mine.

 

[Steve]

My comments are based on two different experiences. First yes I do have fairly regular contact with some of them a coaches but admittedly they are the ones teaching at the UFC branded gems so I would not be surprised if in a part of their motive for saying such things is the marketing of their gym. The other is just reading interviews with MMA coaches and self-declared experts where they criticize traditional martial arts globally or at best will acknowledge the effectiveness only of TMAs (or their derivatives) that are combat sports on their own. 9435 in this case as in most I would never say that my anecdotal experience is emblematic of the whole.. I am heartened to see however that your experience appears to be vastly different than mine.

Just from what I've seen, mma is very pragmatic. The gyms tend to focus on what they know works. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. When a formula works, there isn't a lot of need to innovate. As soon as a weakness is exposed, it is addressed.

Another facet of this pragmatism, is that there isn't any thought at all given to styles that may or may not work. Wing chun, for example, just isn't thought about. If someone were to demonstrate how well it works, it would get some attention.

A third facet of this pragmatism is the acknowledgment that different and better are not necessarily the same thing. Machida is often pointed to as proof that karate works. Cool. But does it work better than western boxing? Or Thai boxing? Jury's out. So, great, we know that at least one karateka, who embraced cross training in other styles and the pressure testing required to make it work, did very well. A mma coach with an extensive background in western boxing might not abandon what he knows works in order to teach some bastardized version of what machida had studied since childhood. I don't fault them for that.

All said, I think you're seeing pragmatism and mischaracterizing is as rigidity.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My comments are based on two different experiences. First yes I do have fairly regular contact with some of them a coaches but admittedly they are the ones teaching at the UFC branded gems so I would not be surprised if in a part of their motive for saying such things is the marketing of their gym. The other is just reading interviews with MMA coaches and self-declared experts where they criticize traditional martial arts globally or at best will acknowledge the effectiveness only of TMAs (or their derivatives) that are combat sports on their own. 9435 in this case as in most I would never say that my anecdotal experience is emblematic of the whole.. I am heartened to see however that your experience appears to be vastly different than mine.

My experiences are pretty much in line with anerlich's. Most of the MMA coaches I know are very open to learning from a wide variety of sources including TMAs. (Many of them also have substantial backgrounds in TMAs, sometimes including instructor ranks.) Even those who don't care for other systems don't bother to spend time bad-mouthing them.

As far as the UFC branded gyms - do any serious competitors or fight teams actually train at one of those? If so, I haven't heard about it.