False teaching and secret knowledge

[geezer]

If you win one fight with bare knuckles, that counts at least as 10 bare knuckle fights. That's because you have ten knuckles, right? If you take your shoes off too kick, you can count your toe knuckles too. If both participants are counted then forty knuckles would be involved.

So if you beat up 30 pre-schoolers you could easily claim 300 bare knuckle victories and still not be much of a fighter.

On the other hand, Emin in his prime was a frick'n beast ...whatever you think the count was. Even today I'd still run away from him if I pissed him off!

 

[Svarog]

Having "secrets" today is actually funny. If MMA taught us anything , it is that "secrets" are worthless in real confrontation. Secrets are nothing else but another way to take more money from students. Problem is, if style isn't taught properly, there is sill a room for hiding something, on the other hand , if it is taught properly it will be impossible to hide something.
About Cheung, I have been involved in his style for 6 or maybe more years. He is a cult leader, although all kung fu styles have some elements of cult like behavior, but his TWC is full blown cult. About his style, I am not sure it can be called Wing Chun , or kung fu , or martial style, because what he teaches has no real basic foundation. No concept of body structure, no concept of power generation. Many of the hand positions in his style and especially way of conditioning them seriously damage health. His teachings are superficial and honestly, insults for intelligence of average adult person. Over the years I had a lot of problems because I left that cult and was not afraid to tell what was going on while I was there. Everything from stalking me personally and my family and friends who are totally unrelated to martial arts what so ever, to death threats. If there is a person that personify all bad things in CMA , that is Cheung

 

[geezer]

If there is a person that personify all bad things in CMA , that is Cheung

Please refrain from "fraud-busting". Remember, It is prohibited on this forum. I'm not a fan of William Cheung either, but let's not engage in personal attacks. My old sifu, Leung Ting was Cheung's arch-rival back in the 80's. Then BJJ and MMA came on the scene and made their petty feud seem ...well pretty petty . IMO, Leung Ting had some really good "WingTsun" and he also had his flaws. Some big ones. So what? We are hear to discuss our martial arts, not attack individuals!

So where are you know in your martial arts path? Are you still pursuing some branch of WC or moving in another direction?

 

[Svarog]

Please refrain from "fraud-busting". Remember, It is prohibited on this forum. I'm not a fan of William Cheung either, but let's not engage in personal attacks. My old sifu, Leung Ting was Cheung's arch-rival back in the 80's. Then BJJ and MMA came on the scene and made their petty feud seem ...well pretty petty . IMO, Leung Ting had some really good "WingTsun" and he also had his flaws. Some big ones. So what? We are hear to discuss our martial arts, not attack individuals!

So where are you know in your martial arts path? Are you still pursuing some branch of WC or moving in another direction?

I just shared my personal experience with Cheung, have no intention to fraud-bust him or anyone else. I have found old WC style without much outside influences, but these days I am more into white crane and Thai boxing

 

[Buka]

Is it okay to divulge secrets on our forum? I hope so, hope I don't get in trouble for this....

Psst....if you drop your hands you're going to get punched in the face.

(Tell no-one!)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Psst....if you drop your hands you're going to get punched in the face.

(Tell no-one!)

If you

- run faster than your opponent, nobody can punch you.
- lay down on the ground, nobody can throw you.
- kill yourself, nobody can kill you.

(Tell no-one!)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A: Why do you keep MA secret and not willing to share?
B: I only want to pass my secret to my own children.
A: But none of your children are interested in MA.

A: Why did you publish a MA book with solo form only but without MA application in it?
B: I want to keep MA application as secret.
A: 100 years from today, people won't think that you try to hide secret. People will only think that you don't understand MA application.

 

[dvcochran]

A: Why do you keep MA secret and not willing to share?
B: I only want to pass my secret to my own children.
A: But none of your children are interested in MA.

A: Why did you publish a MA book with solo form only but without MA application in it?
B: I want to keep MA application as secret.
A: 100 years from today, people won't think that you try to hide secret. People will only think that you don't understand MA application.

Mr. Wang, do you feel there are really any 'secrets' left?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Having "secrets" today is actually funny. If MMA taught us anything , it is that "secrets" are worthless in real confrontation.

Basic physics is a secret many will never understand.

The real kung fu masters did, the fake ones didn't, and continue to not.

How does a person decide? Combat.

 

[dvcochran]

Basic physics is a secret many will never understand.

The real kung fu masters did, the fake ones didn't, and continue to not.

How does a person decide? Combat.

I agree basic physics can escape some people. But I believe that has more to do with how it (or any material) is presented. The simplest example I can think of is leverage. Trying to start out by solve the equation first and you are going to loose people. Sometimes they have no idea what the variables even are. The same is true in any leverage aspect of MA's I have ever seen.
I am an engineer who grew up farming so I used levers before I was old enough to get the simplicity of them all mucked up with complex formulary used in physics equations.
100% an area where the golden cookies need to be put on the bottom shelf.

Therefore I cannot identify this as a 'secret'. Pretty common knowledge now a days. Understanding how to use the information is the key. So now we are back to how well the instructor is at teaching/presenting the material and how 'natural' certain aspects of the material are to a given person. Metaphysical.

 

[Flying Crane]

A lot of things in martial arts take lots of repetition with frequent and often subtle corrections, to optimize. It takes a period of time doing this, before the skill really sets in and grows. Sometimes the path is not intuitive or does not meet with preconceived expectations.

If someone isn’t prepared to make a commitment to the process, then there isn't much point in showing them snippets, because it will not be meaningful.

In today’s instant gratification culture, people often are not prepared to make that commitment, or simply expect that they have a right to demand to be shown whatever they want to see, whether it is simply for their entertainment, or to make a quick “judgement” about a method.

Some people aren’t willing to feed that mentality, and are not willing to share with those who are just tourists, not interested in making a commitment.

This can be misinterpreted as keeping secrets.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Mr. Wang, do you feel there are really any 'secrets' left?

Someone once said, "I will ask 3 questions. If anybody can answer all 3 questions, I'll give him $10,000." Today the answer for all those 3 questions can be found online.

This is one of those 3 questions, "What is tie?"

 

[wckf92]

This is one of those 3 questions, "What is tie?"

Are you referring to "bicep tie"?

 

[dvcochran]

Someone once said, "I will ask 3 questions. If anybody can answer all 3 questions, I'll give him $10,000." Today the answer for all those 3 questions can be found online.

This is one of those 3 questions, "What is tie?"

I would need much more reference since there are several meanings. My best guess since you are asking me from a MA forum is a bicep tie. Where is my money?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you referring to "bicep tie"?

I don't know what "bicep tie" is. "捆 (Kun) - tie" is a Chinese wrestling technique.

The funny thing is if you are a striker, you can't careless about it. Even if you are a wrestler, to learn 1 less wrestling skill is not a big deal.

Another one of those 3 questions is "3 sections body control". Can anybody guess what it may be?

A: I know the secret formula of Coca-Cola.
B: I don't drink anything with artificial flavor and artificial color in it.

Something may be a secret to you. But it can be worthless to others.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don't know what "bicep tie" is. "捆 (Kun) - tie" is a Chinese wrestling technique.

Here's a funny little secret captured in that little glyph easier to see when it is unpacked. 捆 was coded in 1976 by Chu Bong Fu's Cangjie system as "carrying logs in a field", because the hanzi represents carrying (and eventual implied binding) of wooden logs, specifically.

捆 becomes 手田木.

How do you pick up and carry a huge log by yourself? Fireman's carry.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here's a funny little secret captured in that little glyph easier to see when it is unpacked. 捆 was coded in 1976 by Chu Bong Fu's Cangjie system as "carrying logs in a field", because the hanzi represents carrying (and eventual implied binding) of wooden logs, specifically.

捆 becomes 手田木.

How do you pick up and carry a huge log by yourself? Fireman's carry.

"捆 (Kun) - tie" is to use one arm to control your opponent's waist, use the other hand to pull one of his legs.

Here is another example of "tie".

- You are behind your opponent.
- You use right hand to control your opponent's right leg.
- You use left hand to push on his waist (waist control), force him to step left leg forward.
- You then pull his left leg (leg pull).

 

[nikthegreek_3]

I totally agree about false teaching based on things that would never work. And i definitely agree that teaching "Active defenses" is the key to reveal the false teaching. As very clearly explained in this video:

 

[Saburai]

If indeed they are lies, Let’s look at what types of lies William Cheung told and compare them to the to the lies that other Wing Chun masters tell. If William lied about how he learned what he learned and from who in order to become famous all over the world, big freaking deal LoL how many lies do politicians make??
William said he beat up 10 sailors on a ship let me say that again ”Sailors” not martial artists, for someone that is described by Bruce Lee himself as one of the best fighters in Hong Kong it would be easy to defeat 10 untrained men (the average guy can’t even throw a proper punch specially back then). Mind you on that ship William would have been the biggest and fastest guy there, he broke a record for speed punching in US university. In HK the gave him the name ”Big boy”.

Now for the ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims of other masters and I’m just going to use two examples out of the the thousands of masters that ******** on their biographies.

Wong Shun Leung, this guy says he had over 300 bare knuckle fights and won. Nowadays we don’t even believe that Ip Man won 300 bare knuckle fights so why would you believe Wong did, btw remember William towered over Wong cause he was so short, it’s what we call little man syndrome going around saying you beat up 300 guys. Wong bad said some nasty **** about Ip Chun to another martial artist so he got challenged to fight on the spot but Wong chickened out, doesn’t sound like someone who fought 300 guys.

Emin Boztepe also claims to have won that magic number over 300 bare knuckled fights. In Europe were he wasn’t always the biggest guy and seriously the way he wrestled William to the ground was pathetic, if he won 300 fights he would have easily KO’s William or at least left a bruise on his face after he fell on him, there was no visible marks on Williams face after the photo shoot straight after the seminar. I wonder why that point is always left out. What Emin did to William no way would have worked on a bigger guy than him.

So what is worse bullshitting about beating up over 300 actual fighters with no rules bare knuckle or lying about your lineage to get spread wing chun to 22 countries??

William Cheung never went around saying he beat up over 300 actual fighters like the other masters, Yuen Kay Shan or Sum Nung would have beat the **** out of Ip Man and Wong nobody will deny that.
William trained Anthony Arnett the wing chun fighter with the most amount of trophies than any other wing chun master.

This hate towards a master who has men like Bruce Lee saying he was a top fighter and spread wing chun to 22 countries when nobody knew what it was it the most PATHETIC thing I’ve every come across on a blog.

Hello everyone! I registered just so that I might contribute to this thread. I have been passionate about the study of h2h fighting and martial arts since 11 years old, I'll be 60 next month. My first exposure to WCKF was around 1979-80 studying briefly with Master Alan Lamb in NYC before he went to California. I've trained with Sifu John Crescione again briefly a few years later. In the past nearly 40 years, I've trained in FMA under Guro Ray Dionaldo, Guro Mike Tetsu(WCKF&FMA), Guro Jeff Chung and others. Tai Chi under Master Bob Klein I've Boxed and done my share of full contact fighting and training in several other systems as well. I say this to provide a point of reference, I'm a life long beginner, a hacker at best. I've recently started training with Sifu Jesse Jones, a senior student of Master Anthony Arnett. Over the years I've heard all the stories about William Cheung and many other masters as well. My only comment is that if "the proof is in the pudding", and Sifu Jones was trained by Master Arnett, William Cheung taught some extremely effective techniques. Sifu Jones has some of the most effective actual fighting technique that I've ever been exposed to. Although his system of WCKF has noticeable differences from the other systems I've been exposed to, he can explain the reasons why and IMHO the combat effectiveness of their system is very, very good.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

do you feel there are really any 'secrets' left?

IMO, a secret can be something that may take you some time to figure it out. But when someone tells you, it's just as simple as to use a finger to poke a hole through the paper.

For example, what's the best counter to deal with someone who grabs on your arm and drags you in circle?