Well, I keep quiet and don't "throw stones" since I'm a former disciple of Leung Ting and I guess that kind of puts me in a "glass house" so to speak. On the other hand, regardless of what people may say, LT's "Wing Tsun" is a very good system indeed. It's the other stuff that finally drove me away.
False teaching and secret knowledge
- Thread starter turninghorse
- Start date
Nah, but a guy's gotta have a hobby, right?
Yeah, the guys I learn from used to be LT students way way back, but for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with LT's WC they went elsewhere.
His WC's fine though.
dungeonworks
Black Belt
Hmmm....Willy Cheung's Super-Duper-Uber-Secret-Exotic-Wing Chun or EBMAS. I think I'll take EBMAS any day of the week! I just love all those lineage claims and Jesus-like "Sole Inheritor of the Art" and "I'm so special I learned the REAL...." stories some of these (ah-hem) "Masters" put out. :barf:
I also noticed mention of Wong Shoon Leung fighting in bare-knuckle competitions. Reminded me of all the times on the forum here that I have read that Wing Chun was not meant for competition and can't be used for it effectively. My point? I think some Sifu's are using that as a copout as to why they don't "spar" or never competed and falsely teaching that Wing Chun has no competition history when they infact do in the form of HK roof top fights, various challenge matches in the 60's and 70's, and a very small minority in modern MMA. I still hunger for actual videos of these or any other fights of Wing Chun in action, in real time, at full speed.
I'm not Boztepe's biggest fan, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say...Emin did fight Cheung, and Cheung didn't exactly win that one. You'd think that after brazenly issuing an open challenge to fight and beat anyone, anywhere, anytime, that the Sole Inheritor Of Traditional Wing Chun would've made short work of a young Boztepe, but that's not what happened is it?
In the Wing Chun world, Cheung is the only one who says those things (as far as I know).
Now, in the larger world of martial arts, there's lots of other people that roll like Cheung....Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Masaaki Hatsumi.
Hmmm....I just noticed that all the other "Chosen One"-type people seem to be Ninjas. I'm not sure what that means.
Yeah, I see your point here & agree with it to an extent. At the same time though, there is a difference between a sport-duel & a fight. WC simply wasn't put together with a ring-type situation in mind, & neither were most of the other kung fu systems against which it was pitted in those rooftop fights.
Stuff like BJJ & Muay Thai have been adopted specifically for the sport-duel ring fight context, so they'll do much better in that context (all things being equal).
As far as "not sparring"...WC sparring is done out of chi sau. WC isn't boxing, so to criticize WC for not "sparring" like how boxers spar doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I mean, BJJ guys don't "spar" either - they wrestle around until someone taps out, but is that "sparring"?
Now, if in a given school, chi sau is never practiced at a high level of intensity where both participants are trying to hit the other guy, then I think it's fair to criticize them for not training realistically.
I doubt you'd be all that impressed. I've seen WC guys fighting...& I mean actually fighting & winning against assorted other martial arts practioners as well as bully thugs off the street, & it just doesn't look cool. My guess is if those Wong Shun Leung fights were recorded, today people would laugh at them. "Those guys don't know how to fight! They look like school-kids!", etc.
profesormental
Brown Belt
The wedgie things was really funny!!
In the end it all boils down to how you and your group trains specifically and what is the focus of the training.
That means that the results depend on the Teacher, the students and the specific curriculum and drills done there, not on the lineage.
Since specific teachers can learn more and develop and evolve their martial skills and their teaching skills, you will get more (or less) effective, efficient and reliable results.
I tend to move in a verifiably more effective, efficient and reliable direction, and continually take risks and evaluate the results.
If I get students that learn faster workable skills and execute with more power, stability and strength than before, we keep that way of training. If not, we keep searching.
The thing is that we are now documenting what we do as to avoid repeating mistakes or inefficient methods.
Thus I can say I do things differently now. Yet I can tell you specifically why and the path how it got there and from where I learned what.
Hope that helps.
In the end it all boils down to how you and your group trains specifically and what is the focus of the training.
That means that the results depend on the Teacher, the students and the specific curriculum and drills done there, not on the lineage.
Since specific teachers can learn more and develop and evolve their martial skills and their teaching skills, you will get more (or less) effective, efficient and reliable results.
I tend to move in a verifiably more effective, efficient and reliable direction, and continually take risks and evaluate the results.
If I get students that learn faster workable skills and execute with more power, stability and strength than before, we keep that way of training. If not, we keep searching.
The thing is that we are now documenting what we do as to avoid repeating mistakes or inefficient methods.
Thus I can say I do things differently now. Yet I can tell you specifically why and the path how it got there and from where I learned what.
Hope that helps.
Pretty much. Some people honestly don't care about being "badass". They do kung fu for entirely different reasons, so criticizing them for not sparring often enough or realistically enough doesn't make any sense.
On the other hand, if you don't train realistically, you have no business thinking you're some kind of death-machine.
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Wow! Pure Bill. Couple of things Nastro.
He did live with Yip Man for a time. Tsui Sheung Tin was living there as well. That is what makes the claims more questionable than anything else. For the story to be true Ip would be waking Bill up and saying don't wake up Tin and Tin would have to be one hell of a heavy sleeper never to notice since they all were in the same room. TST was the senior that taught WC the most actually. If you look at WSL you will see he uses the same wide stance as William Cheung . There are other similarities as well. The dispute was not that WC didn't learn from Yip Man only that he was taught some secret stuff that others weren't.
Even this is not to far fetched. It was common knowledge that Yips private students may have learned more or were shown different things than those that could not afford the tuition. In fact just look at the differences among Ip[s students . In the end the only thing that matters is if you like what you learned and if you can really use what you learned.
He did live with Yip Man for a time. Tsui Sheung Tin was living there as well. That is what makes the claims more questionable than anything else. For the story to be true Ip would be waking Bill up and saying don't wake up Tin and Tin would have to be one hell of a heavy sleeper never to notice since they all were in the same room. TST was the senior that taught WC the most actually. If you look at WSL you will see he uses the same wide stance as William Cheung . There are other similarities as well. The dispute was not that WC didn't learn from Yip Man only that he was taught some secret stuff that others weren't.
Even this is not to far fetched. It was common knowledge that Yips private students may have learned more or were shown different things than those that could not afford the tuition. In fact just look at the differences among Ip[s students . In the end the only thing that matters is if you like what you learned and if you can really use what you learned.
Nomad
Master Black Belt
It looks like we're in agreement on the fundamental point, which is that William Cheung is a liar. That being so, I don't want to argue, but I do have a genuine question, & a couple points.
1. Where's the evidence that Cheung lived with Ip Man? I've never seen compelling photographic evidence, or 3rd party corroboration. In addition, I've heard at least one student of Ip Man flat out say that the dude never lived there. In addition to that, there's the VTAA letter where they not only make no mention of Cheung ever having lived there, but they describe his training as "intermittent", which contradicts the claim he was a live-in student.
So....No evidence, no 3rd pary corroboration, and straight up repudiation from Ip's other students.
2. I think it's extremely far-fetched to suggest that Ip Man knew a superior kung fu system and didn't EVER teach it to ANY of his other students.
It's every bit as far-fetched as any other absurd "Chosen One" story. It's every bit as far-fetched as Frank Dux's "Koga Ryu Ninjitsu" or his "kumite" stories. It's every bit as far-fetched as Ashida Kim's mysterious teacher, "Shendai". It's plainly and clearly a b.s. story just like all the other con-men's stories.
Yes, there are differences amongst Ip's students, but Cheung's "WC" is really, really different. Look at the footage of Ip Man doing the forms. Compare those forms to any of his students. Despite variation, they're still recongnizably the same forms. Now look at Cheung. Clearly not the same thing. At all.
In the end, I think that whether or not "you like what you learned and if you can really use what you learned" is not ALL that matters. For me, ethical standards trump those other things. It wouldn't matter if William Cheung's training was more fun than Disneyland & made me more deadly than Rambo - ethical standards demand that I not patronize that man or reinforce his behavior in any way while at the same time not letting his lies go unchallenged.
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El Nastro-- I'd be the last person to disagree with the points you make. But one thing that makes this forum different from so many others is that we try not to be confrontational, and we don't go off attempting to expose other instructors as frauds. Otherwise we'd just end up being another trolls' den. Trust me, I feel your outrage... but just let it go, friend.
profesormental
Brown Belt
Greetings.
I think it would be useful to go back to the original questions that started the topic...
Is keeping secret knowledge a good thing for martial arts?
I think absolutely not.
The more knowledge and experiences are shared, the more we can learn and adapt to improve our training methods and skills in executing martial applications.
That is why I believe and practice the recording and codification of what I do and teach.
That way we can see what is done, why and the directions to make it even better.
Does the system that you use matter? I believe so. Yet it depends on what you want. And as was said before, not everyone wnats to be a super bad ***...
Yet with effective training, even if it is for less than a year, you can have skills that will improve your chances to survive a self defense type situation by a significant amount... against untrained assailants, not necessarily trained fighters (which you are statistically unlikely to meet).
It is important to make sure you get what you pay for and what is advertised. With the internets now, we have enough access to make an educated decision...
If you use unreliable stories to help legitimize yourself, instead of your skills, then it is up to the consumers to educate themselves... if they believe the stories, it is their responsibility.
We just have to concentrate in getting better ourselves so that if they ever want something better, we stay better.
El Nastro, I've been down this road, yet this is my experience. If you wanna know why, just send a private message. Interesting story... with a good ending.
Hope that helps.
P.S. I enjoy your contributions to the forum. Well thought out. Thanks.
I think it would be useful to go back to the original questions that started the topic...
Is keeping secret knowledge a good thing for martial arts?
I think absolutely not.
The more knowledge and experiences are shared, the more we can learn and adapt to improve our training methods and skills in executing martial applications.
That is why I believe and practice the recording and codification of what I do and teach.
That way we can see what is done, why and the directions to make it even better.
Does the system that you use matter? I believe so. Yet it depends on what you want. And as was said before, not everyone wnats to be a super bad ***...
Yet with effective training, even if it is for less than a year, you can have skills that will improve your chances to survive a self defense type situation by a significant amount... against untrained assailants, not necessarily trained fighters (which you are statistically unlikely to meet).
It is important to make sure you get what you pay for and what is advertised. With the internets now, we have enough access to make an educated decision...
If you use unreliable stories to help legitimize yourself, instead of your skills, then it is up to the consumers to educate themselves... if they believe the stories, it is their responsibility.
We just have to concentrate in getting better ourselves so that if they ever want something better, we stay better.
El Nastro, I've been down this road, yet this is my experience. If you wanna know why, just send a private message. Interesting story... with a good ending.
Hope that helps.
P.S. I enjoy your contributions to the forum. Well thought out. Thanks.
dungeonworks
Black Belt
I feel this snippet from your post verbalizes EXACTLY how I feel about MARTIAL ARTS, not just Wing Chun. Thank you for that! Too many times Martial Artists use the "Sifu/Sensei/Sabunim says..." without ANY self exploration at all into any aspect of claims made about specific arts. I wish you were local Proff. Mental. I really do. You would have plus one to your student enrollment!
dungeonworks
Black Belt
Geezer, I hear you. I just wish my posts were not taken as offensive sometimes when I post legitimate questions or opinions that piss people off around here on occasion when my intent is seeking fruitful discussion.
Well there are two sides to every coin... unless there aren't. Anyway, some people are just way too sensitive. If your intentions are good and they still get pissed, further conversation should settle them down. If not, ...the hell with 'em! LOL
I agree, & I think it's worth noting that whenever someone claims to have "secret knowledge", it's a dead giveaway that person is a con-man.
The very concept of "secret martial arts knowledge" doesn't even make sense to begin with.
I mean, if it's secret knowledge, what are they doing advertising that they have it? What are they doing selling it?! How did they even learn it in the first place?
Nah...I don't even think there's such a thing as "secret knowledge". It's a b.s. marketing ploy. Always has been.
I agree with both of those things, and that's precisely the reason I wanted to compose and post the complete story on William Cheung. I know I wasn't saying anything that hasn't been said before, but all this information is scattered and difficult to just stumble across. I thought it would be nice to put this stuff in one place so that people who are attempting to educate themselves before they make a decision to learn Cheung Kung Fu have an opportunity to hear the story.
I would also like to point out that people wouldn't be able to educate themselves if no one's allowed to talk about this stuff.
The message is clear: don't talk about this stuff. I put nearly an identical post about Cheung up on Kung Fu Magazine forums, and they deleted it. I'm surprised the moderators haven't deleted this one, but I have been told to "let it go".
How on Earth are people supposed to use the internets to make an informed decision if the subject is verboten?!
Before anyone says "Hey, they do fraud-busting at Bullshido" (again)...well....we all know what the Bullshido forums are like. It's 99.999% juvenile name-calling and "your mom"-jokes and insults. Skeptical inquiry and criticism and hard questions shouldn't be exclusive to that context.
Thank you sir!
Here at MartialTalk, we encourage skeptical inquiry and respectful, polite criticism. This discussion has remained polite and factual; so long as it stays that way, and avoids name calling, personal attacks, or hounding demands for proof, go for it.
For more information, see The Rules at 4.16:
If you ever have any questions about policy, you have several options. You can contact staff via PMs, or you can send a message to MT Admin Team, you can post in one of the Support Forums, and the Site Owner, Bob Hubbard, has even listed his own phone number if you look a little for it.
I hope this helps; we really want you to feel free to discuss things like this -- but stay within the boundaries.
If indeed they are lies, Letās look at what types of lies William Cheung told and compare them to the to the lies that other Wing Chun masters tell. If William lied about how he learned what he learned and from who in order to become famous all over the world, big freaking deal LoL how many lies do politicians make??
William said he beat up 10 sailors on a ship let me say that again āSailorsā not martial artists, for someone that is described by Bruce Lee himself as one of the best fighters in Hong Kong it would be easy to defeat 10 untrained men (the average guy canāt even throw a proper punch specially back then). Mind you on that ship William would have been the biggest and fastest guy there, he broke a record for speed punching in US university. In HK the gave him the name āBig boyā.
Now for the ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims of other masters and Iām just going to use two examples out of the the thousands of masters that ******** on their biographies.
Wong Shun Leung, this guy says he had over 300 bare knuckle fights and won. Nowadays we donāt even believe that Ip Man won 300 bare knuckle fights so why would you believe Wong did, btw remember William towered over Wong cause he was so short, itās what we call little man syndrome going around saying you beat up 300 guys. Wong bad said some nasty **** about Ip Chun to another martial artist so he got challenged to fight on the spot but Wong chickened out, doesnāt sound like someone who fought 300 guys.
Emin Boztepe also claims to have won that magic number over 300 bare knuckled fights. In Europe were he wasnāt always the biggest guy and seriously the way he wrestled William to the ground was pathetic, if he won 300 fights he would have easily KOās William or at least left a bruise on his face after he fell on him, there was no visible marks on Williams face after the photo shoot straight after the seminar. I wonder why that point is always left out. What Emin did to William no way would have worked on a bigger guy than him.
So what is worse bullshitting about beating up over 300 actual fighters with no rules bare knuckle or lying about your lineage to get spread wing chun to 22 countries??
William Cheung never went around saying he beat up over 300 actual fighters like the other masters, Yuen Kay Shan or Sum Nung would have beat the **** out of Ip Man and Wong nobody will deny that.
William trained Anthony Arnett the wing chun fighter with the most amount of trophies than any other wing chun master.
This hate towards a master who has men like Bruce Lee saying he was a top fighter and spread wing chun to 22 countries when nobody knew what it was it the most PATHETIC thing Iāve every come across on a blog.
William said he beat up 10 sailors on a ship let me say that again āSailorsā not martial artists, for someone that is described by Bruce Lee himself as one of the best fighters in Hong Kong it would be easy to defeat 10 untrained men (the average guy canāt even throw a proper punch specially back then). Mind you on that ship William would have been the biggest and fastest guy there, he broke a record for speed punching in US university. In HK the gave him the name āBig boyā.
Now for the ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims of other masters and Iām just going to use two examples out of the the thousands of masters that ******** on their biographies.
Wong Shun Leung, this guy says he had over 300 bare knuckle fights and won. Nowadays we donāt even believe that Ip Man won 300 bare knuckle fights so why would you believe Wong did, btw remember William towered over Wong cause he was so short, itās what we call little man syndrome going around saying you beat up 300 guys. Wong bad said some nasty **** about Ip Chun to another martial artist so he got challenged to fight on the spot but Wong chickened out, doesnāt sound like someone who fought 300 guys.
Emin Boztepe also claims to have won that magic number over 300 bare knuckled fights. In Europe were he wasnāt always the biggest guy and seriously the way he wrestled William to the ground was pathetic, if he won 300 fights he would have easily KOās William or at least left a bruise on his face after he fell on him, there was no visible marks on Williams face after the photo shoot straight after the seminar. I wonder why that point is always left out. What Emin did to William no way would have worked on a bigger guy than him.
So what is worse bullshitting about beating up over 300 actual fighters with no rules bare knuckle or lying about your lineage to get spread wing chun to 22 countries??
William Cheung never went around saying he beat up over 300 actual fighters like the other masters, Yuen Kay Shan or Sum Nung would have beat the **** out of Ip Man and Wong nobody will deny that.
William trained Anthony Arnett the wing chun fighter with the most amount of trophies than any other wing chun master.
This hate towards a master who has men like Bruce Lee saying he was a top fighter and spread wing chun to 22 countries when nobody knew what it was it the most PATHETIC thing Iāve every come across on a blog.
obi_juan_salami
Green Belt
A good teacher teaches you what you need, not necessarily what you want.
Assuming Yip Man was a good teacher, perhaps he gave each student the training tools and techniques he felt they could either do with more work on or capitalise on their strengths. each of them then wind up with similar basics, different methods, and therefore each thinking they have the 'real deal'. which i guess they all do in thats its what they were taught.
Aside from that wing chun needs a fair amount of self discovery through training. no matter what someone teaches you its all just words until you experience the results of your labour. Varying amounts of guidance from a good teacher and as a result/combined with different interpretations, again leaves different people under the same teacher with different versions of things.
i think that sometimes what we think is hiding or keeping secrets is in fact maybe some wisdom on the teachers part. we might not be ready to know every detail and not every detail can be useful to us. as keen, hungry and passionate students this can be hard to swallow but whats more important is a deep understanding of the principles, a thorough, daily practice of the basics and trust in your teacher that they wont misguide you. which simply sucks if you are a begginger, dont know what your looking at and there are frauds around. its tough.
Assuming Yip Man was a good teacher, perhaps he gave each student the training tools and techniques he felt they could either do with more work on or capitalise on their strengths. each of them then wind up with similar basics, different methods, and therefore each thinking they have the 'real deal'. which i guess they all do in thats its what they were taught.
Aside from that wing chun needs a fair amount of self discovery through training. no matter what someone teaches you its all just words until you experience the results of your labour. Varying amounts of guidance from a good teacher and as a result/combined with different interpretations, again leaves different people under the same teacher with different versions of things.
i think that sometimes what we think is hiding or keeping secrets is in fact maybe some wisdom on the teachers part. we might not be ready to know every detail and not every detail can be useful to us. as keen, hungry and passionate students this can be hard to swallow but whats more important is a deep understanding of the principles, a thorough, daily practice of the basics and trust in your teacher that they wont misguide you. which simply sucks if you are a begginger, dont know what your looking at and there are frauds around. its tough.
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