An appeal for other traditional ninja styles

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I believe the only systems that can truly claim any type of combat effectiveness, are the systems that have experienced combat, and were created and perfected during it.
The Bujinkan arts (especially the 3 Ninjutsu schools) have obviously been through warring times, and the arts were created with "combat effectiveness" in mind.
MA's that have been used by militia/Police, etc as a primary form of unarmed combat are the only systems that can legimately claim to be effective as a whole. For instance, if someone learns BJJ and they are a cop, and they use it effectively, it doesnt mean it is an effective system, because the whole pricinct isnt using it. just the one guy. I am not sure how to word it, but basically, unless the art is combat, the practicioners cannot claim it effective during such.

Soooo....when is the last time you had to actually use 1 of the 3 schools, or throw jacks at someones feet? Know a whole metropolitan police force that does? Use your To a lot? Lotsa street brawls with manriki-gusari in your town?

Medeival combat and battle management tactics do not necessarily speak to modern effectiveness.

 

[Shogun]

That is one of those Ignorant Taijutsu comments. I will let Mr. Roley or Mr. Seago (Steele foundation senior manager) answer your questions about Bujinkan training.
I have experienced what types of arts cops train in firsthand. I dont see many training in competitive arts (Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, MMA styles)I see them train mostly in Japanese Jujutsu styles, which were developed to restrain a suspect, while minimizing the damage they take.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

That is one of those Ignorant Taijutsu comments. I will let Mr. Roley or Mr. Seago (Steele foundation senior manager) answer your questions about Bujinkan training.
I have experienced what types of arts cops train in firsthand. I dont see many training in competitive arts (Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, MMA styles)I see them train mostly in Japanese Jujutsu styles, which were developed to restrain a suspect, while minimizing the damage they take.

1. I was being a smartass.

2. Speaking of ignorant statements...You don't? BJJ basics have been added to the combat training of PD's throughout the US. The early days of BJJ -- before the steroid freaks training for MMA competitions -- most schools had approx 25-50% enrollment with LEO's of one sort or another...sherrifs dept, Marshalls, regular PD from all over So Cal, etc. Look harder.

D.

 

[Cryozombie]

Quality control issues are not just problems in the Bujinkan. Hell... I would say that I AM one... my Ukemi is attrocious, and I still dont feel like I can do Kihon Happo well.

But I have an excuse... I am "early" in my ranking, only a 7th Kyu.

However, Find me an art that doesnt have any number of bad students, or for that matter, instructors. Ive been into schools where I feel *I* could wipe the floor with any number of their blackbelts, and that is pretty sad, given my above statement.

Its arguable one of the most "used" slams against the Bujinkan is, "There are a Lot of bad students"...

Well, all I can say, is we dont have a franchise on it, we just joined the club.

:asian:

 

[Flatlander]

That is one of those Ignorant Taijutsu comments. I will let Mr. Roley or Mr. Seago (Steele foundation senior manager) answer your questions about Bujinkan training.
I have experienced what types of arts cops train in firsthand. I dont see many training in competitive arts (Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, MMA styles)I see them train mostly in Japanese Jujutsu styles, which were developed to restrain a suspect, while minimizing the damage they take.

Well, I don't know how the LEO's in your neck of the woods do things, but in all honesty, departmentally mandated training, regardless of the base art, is laughable and horrifically substandard. You could feasibly train in just about any art for a few months and beat a recently graduated LEO in H2H (provided they had no previous martial training). They train for a few weeks, learn a few basic locks, strikes and takedowns, and then are free to never train again, should they choose not to.

Your use of LEO training as evidence of combat effectiveness doesn't hold water.

 

[Shogun]

Not basic DT training. I was refering to what individual/group LEO do for additional training. The DT is very basic stuff. It really wouldnt be very effective without the OC spray and ASPs. A few (ok, a lot) of Police in my area are MA instructors, and offer free instruction to other LEO. But the DT is enough for most LEO. They get by with basics.

BJJ basics have been added to the combat training of PD's throughout the US.

The basics of BJJ can be found in most grappling styles.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

However, Find me an art that doesnt have any number of bad students, or for that matter, instructors. Ive been into schools where I feel *I* could wipe the floor with any number of their blackbelts, and that is pretty sad, given my above statement.
...
Well, all I can say, is we dont have a franchise on it, we just joined the club.

:asian:

As a kenpo practitioner & teacher, I have mourned deeply the loss of quality in my art, evident even before it's principle founders and key figures started slipping off the plate. It has only worsened with time, and the passing of so many excellent thinking brawlers. I've seen the proliferation of folks with pedigreed claims to notable instructors who were absolutely lost in their own skins...they would fit in to the group of instructors you COULD mop the floor with, handily. On the flip side, I've seen kenpo indies who were phenomenal (sp?).

Seeing the same with BJK Budo Taijutsu breaks my heart, because it started out as such a noble, well-heeled esoteric and pragmatic system, but is rapidly going the way of arts such as my own. The apparent absolute obsession with legitimacy is a no-yield/low-yield QC effort, and I hate to see the most excellent seniors in the system trapped in the neverending loop that is this effort. A better approach, in my own opinion, is to stand out as a beacon of excellence for quality instruction. The serious lifers in Kenpo know who to seek out, and who to avoid. It will, inevitably, be up to practitioners of BJKBT to develop the same sense of consumer savvy, and learn to seek quality. Mr. Roley seems well-positioned to me to direct the attention of the serious acolyte to the better senior instructors.

Kinduva, "Who ya gonna call?", and the chorus sings, "Don Roley".

His insight, tenacity, and borderline arrogance for detail make him a great reference point for any who wish to ask.

It is also sad to me that some of the really cool ideas aren't discussed, for fear the frauds will coin the phrases, use the terminology, use the techniques, etc.

I post not out of criticism, but concern. When TKGR first hit US shores, you could count on a positive experience with a certified representative. I just hate to see something like that go. Again.

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The basics of BJJ can be found in most grappling styles.

Me thinks you make my point for me. This was not always so. There was a time in which, unless you had access to an old-school judo teacher or text, the "astride" position, attacks from it and defenses against them, were all but unknown. Even then, the Japanese did not take it to the extreme the Gracies did. Much of what is used now is sometimes referred to in various circles as "Brazilian Mount Fighting", since the poundings delivered from these superior positions are largely tactics developed in Brazil for vale tudo matches. Due to their effectiveness, even traditional TKD schools are now teaching Gracie basics.

As part owner and trainer of an MMA gym (before MMA was even a coined phrase...used to refer to stuff like Kajukenbo), much of my clientele were from law enforcement, ranging from Metro SWAT teams to local meter maids. Kickboxing for stand-up & clinch-fighting; Gracie for the ground. Many came in with some excellent stories of thai-kicking the leg out from under a perp, mounting him, turning him, then choking him out. When hadaka-jime became taboo post LAPD positional asphyxiations and blood clots, alternative loop chokes were applied, with excellent results. It's easy to cuff a guy who's sleeping.

I don't know much, but I know what I know. And to tell me cops don't BJJ because it's not a combat art when I've taught cops who've used it in combat, and have done so myself quite succesfully on more than a few occasions...

 

[Jeff Boler]

I think a couple of you have misinterpreted my comments. Anyone who lies about lineage or anything else, is not worth messing around with, period. However, if someone comes up to me and says that they created their style on their own, I'm willing to at least, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Lineage isn't important, unless you make it important. Guys floating around the net claiming to be Koga Ryu styles, have better be able to back up their claims to gain any sort of respectability whatsoever.

However, a person who has prior military training, or martial arts training that creates his own style.....I have no problem with. As long as he is up front about it.

 

[Enson]

I think a couple of you have misinterpreted my comments. Anyone who lies about lineage or anything else, is not worth messing around with, period. However, if someone comes up to me and says that they created their style on their own, I'm willing to at least, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Lineage isn't important, unless you make it important. Guys floating around the net claiming to be Koga Ryu styles, have better be able to back up their claims to gain any sort of respectability whatsoever.

However, a person who has prior military training, or martial arts training that creates his own style.....I have no problem with. As long as he is up front about it.

i can agree with that. the fact of the matter is... no one has been able to show that they were/are studying under a koga ninja. is it possible that not all of the 53 families died out? and maybe some of them came to the usa?... well yeah. is it possible ninjutsu was taught just like it was taught in the koga mountains? (in secret) its possible. so i will say it again. lets judge a man by his skill/ability and when that has been established lets talk about roots.

 

[Cryozombie]

These discussions are getting old.

This is the last I am going to say on it, I am going to break the way I see it down plain and simple so everyone knows what I am thinking and then I am DONE.

A person can be a super skilled master of <Inset Art Here> and call their Art Ninjutsu, but that does not make it Ninjutsu. They may be an awesome fighter, a great artist, and a master at what they do. Which is not Ninjutsu.

Or... to feed you a better example... I could put a BMW medaillion on my Chevy... a well made, sold built, reliable car... but it's still not a BMW.

I wouldn't NOT go see them, possibly train with them, or whatnot. I would just understand that they were only capitalizing on the name and nothing more. I think THAT is what most X-Kan practitioners like Don are bagging on, nothing more. He stated once before, that the problem was, we would try and discuss something related to "Our" ninjutsu, like History, technique etc... and someone from, say, Dux-Ryu would jump in with a fictional history story, or some Kata from tae-kwondo or what have you, and the discussion would break down.

THAT is why *I* went to the mods and appealed to have the forum split into "Traditional" and "Modern". You can all blame ME for that. I was TRYING to bring the forum back on track and go back to discussing Budo, not having a P*ssing match over the arts.

I failed.

 

[Enson]

i don't think you failed. in fact i find the boards alot more fun to be on. more action!

i posted this for my views:

i would prefer to think of ninjutsu as a concept. a concept where anyone loyal and dedicated can follow. i.e. jkd concept. (this will probably get twisted and taken out of context ((it will be fun to see how)) i respect the epak guys. most don't claim to be taken in as a baby and taught epak from a japanese grandmaster. they honor and respect an american man for taking a japanese concept and making better for him and generations to come. i respect all other styles. i don't respect false claims. if your instructor was "joe blow" then honor him and what he taught you. if it works for you... use it!

this is how i see it. about speaking of technique...? i would enjoy someone else's theory on a certain technique (not false info) to maybe give me some more insight. i don't think anyone here is a grandmaster trying to start a new style so why can't we share info? i understand that what i do is not really x-kan/ ninjukai/ <put in your style here>. so when i hear of other techniques i don't try to impliment them just learn from them.
peace

 

[Jeff Boler]

These discussions are getting old.

This is the last I am going to say on it, I am going to break the way I see it down plain and simple so everyone knows what I am thinking and then I am DONE.

A person can be a super skilled master of <Inset Art Here> and call their Art Ninjutsu, but that does not make it Ninjutsu. They may be an awesome fighter, a great artist, and a master at what they do. Which is not Ninjutsu.

Or... to feed you a better example... I could put a BMW medaillion on my Chevy... a well made, sold built, reliable car... but it's still not a BMW.

I wouldn't NOT go see them, possibly train with them, or whatnot. I would just understand that they were only capitalizing on the name and nothing more. I think THAT is what most X-Kan practitioners like Don are bagging on, nothing more. He stated once before, that the problem was, we would try and discuss something related to "Our" ninjutsu, like History, technique etc... and someone from, say, Dux-Ryu would jump in with a fictional history story, or some Kata from tae-kwondo or what have you, and the discussion would break down.

THAT is why *I* went to the mods and appealed to have the forum split into "Traditional" and "Modern". You can all blame ME for that. I was TRYING to bring the forum back on track and go back to discussing Budo, not having a P*ssing match over the arts.

I failed.

No, you didn't fail. I think you have a valid arguement. The question is who is "traditional" and who isn't. EVEN HATSUMI was unable to convince the Japanese that his system was Koryu. Whose to say that he's teaching a traditional Ninjutsu system?

Which again, is why I said that using lineage as the primary factor in determining "legitimacy" is flawed at best.

 

[Dale Seago]

EVEN HATSUMI was unable to convince the Japanese that his system was Koryu.

That is not, as stated, correct.

 

[Kreth]

EVEN HATSUMI was unable to convince the Japanese that his system was Koryu.

You misspelled "The Skosses"...

Jeff

 

[r erman]

Just thought I'd save everybody from the next 15 pages of discussion, so here it is:

"Hatsumi's bujinkan org was denied entry to blah blah koryu org and such and such koryu society"

"No he wasn't, he refused to let said groups study/borrow original scrolls from certain ryuha--something they've never required of other schools. Plus he does belong to a couple of other koryu circles"

"On koryubooks.com they said hatsumi's togakure ryu is fake"

"No they said they don't cover ninjutsu as it doesn't fit into their definition of koryu. They said it may be historically valid--they actually praised hatsumi's hanbo(tanjo) jutsu"

"Well Hatsumi's system has no proof that it existed prior to his teacher"

"Yes it does. There are several samurai systems contained within the kans that are completely legitimate(Takagi Yoshin, Kukishinden, Gyokko...etc). Many of the booj ryu are listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten"

"But the ninjutsu ryu aren't in the BRD, right?"

"Depends on how you define ninjutsu. Gyokko ryu is listed as a school containing ninpo{which completely throws out the statment that TSKSR is the only one...}. Kukishin Ryu has elements of ninjutsu as well, why would Takamatsu need to make up ninjutsu schools if he was headmaster of legitimate ryuha containing ninjutsu?"


Anyway, I think I covered most of the bases. Most of the above are snippets of discussion that have been beaten to death more times than most of us can count. Let's move on

 

[Dale Seago]

Darned good job, Rob!!! :asian:

 

[r erman]

Darned good job, Rob!!!

Thanks

 

[Don Roley]

I think a couple of you have misinterpreted my comments. Anyone who lies about lineage or anything else, is not worth messing around with, period.

Then we are on the same page so far.

What I see here is a false choice. It seems to be a given that you can either care about whether an art is legitimate in it's claims or you can be working on effective techniques. The thing is, there is nothing stopping us from doing both at the same time.

I just got back to Japan from a week with another non-Japanese art. It was a great week with great martial artists. I stayed witht eh orginizer, a friend of mine, and got to sit in on a lot of conversations and lessons between some very skilled Indonesian stylists. There was a great amount of information exchanged. I had trouble understanding the history and the terminology they were using most of the time, but enjoyed the physical lessons.

These guys were quite effective and quite interested in exchanging ideas with other styles from Indonesia. At the same time, they really made fun of a lot of people who made false claims or were otherwise incompetent.

They were quite willing to exchange information, but they were not willing to deal with any frauds because the frauds knew nothing. They grew by comparing and contrasting what they knew. I too would like to have the same type of experience in the art of ninjutsu. I would love to find another ninjutsu style and exchange viewpoints, etc on what we do. But I am not really interested in listening to some guy with a total of 6 months of TKD go on about "oni ki" like I have seen happen.

So if there is any other style that can trace itself back to Japan, I would like to talk to them. But if they are decietful about what they claim, I am not willing to even give them the time of day.

 

[AaronLucia]

Less Talkey, more trainey!