Fake black belts

[Steve]

I like some of the old training systems like in most traditional FMA, no belts just either you can or can´t do it. everyone knows.

Yeah but even in these systems, it always causes quite a stir when someone who hasn’t been blessed to teach does so. it’s also very common in the CMA styles. So much drama over ceremonial adequacy.

 

[Steve]

yeah ...like i wrote you can do it or you can´t..if you can you are well known as a "doer" anyway. My only problem is the people who say they can & can´t & teach just rubbish..& take money from honest hard working people .

Me too. Particularly the self defense guys because I think it’s actually more dangerous to think you can fight when you cannot than to know you cannot fight.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Yeah but even in these systems, it always causes quite a stir when someone who hasn’t been blessed to teach does so. it’s also very common in the CMA styles. So much drama over ceremonial adequacy.

yeah...the Wing Chun /Ving tsun/ Wing tsun ..world tops the list. all were "closed door" students of Yip Man

 

[Jimmythebull]

Me too. Particularly the self defense guys because I think it’s actually more dangerous to think you can fight when you cannot than to know you cannot fight.

It´s like where i grew up, you had fist fights with other towns nearby. you knew who could fight & was "game". simple as that. no bull just reality.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It´s like where i grew up, you had fist fights with other towns nearby. you knew who could fight & was "game". simple as that. no bull just reality.

It was a tad more complicated where I grew up. If a couple of young gangsters start up with you and you beat the Christ out of them, you get shot at the bus stop within a few days. If you let them beat you up or rob you without fighting back, well then now you are marked as a punk to get robbed every day. Not so easy to negotiate that water because maybe you can do it, but maybe you should not. Been in that situation several times as a kid, sometimes you gotta just swallow your pride in favor of surviving. I saw many shootings and stabbings in those days. Beat downs were commonplace, it wasn’t something you heard about, it was something everyone saw regularly.

 

[Jimmythebull]

It was a tad more complicated where I grew up. If a couple of young gangsters start up with you and you beat the Christ out of them, you get shot at the bus stop within a few days. If you let them beat you up or rob you without fighting back, well then now you are marked as a punk to get robbed every day. Not so easy to negotiate that water because maybe you can do it, but maybe you should not. Been in that situation several times as a kid, sometimes you gotta just swallow your pride in favor of surviving. I saw many shootings and stabbings in those days. Beat downs were commonplace, it wasn’t something you heard about, it was something everyone saw regularly.

I get it 100% . where i grew up it was mainly man to man a square go fist fight. There was knives involved but in rare occasions. In the bigger cities like Glasgow ( Scotland ) another thing. much more hard violence.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I get it 100% . where i grew up it was mainly man to man a square go fist fight. There was knives involved but in rare occasions. In the bigger cities like Glasgow ( Scotland ) another thing. much more hard violence.

Ah if only, I would have done well without the worry of .25 auto in my knee. It is a bitter pill to have some little crap *** threaten you with a pistol and have to take it even though you know you could thrash them within an inch of their life.

 

[tkdroamer]

Me too. Particularly the self defense guys because I think it’s actually more dangerous to think you can fight when you cannot than to know you cannot fight.

Agree. Self-defense without pressure testing is dick.

 

[Rich Parsons]

... Never been to Japan..maybe one day. ...

I have not been in a while, and yet I enjoyed every time I was there.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I like some of the old training systems like in most traditional FMA, no belts just either you can or can´t do it. everyone knows.

Yes, The old training systems where it was word of mouth and if someone opened a training hall or school they had to defend themselves from challenges or aggressive students. (* Not a challenge to the poster or anyone nor recommending the action and or process just commenting *)

I have found that this seems to work for about two generations from the last well known practitioner and or DO'er as you stated.
If your lineage is easily verified by others to someone people respected and trusted then it seems to work.

Further down the line, a new person has to become the Do'er and or famous and respected person.
Yet, having a minimum requirement for teaching is a good thing in general. It sets a standard .

** Disclaimer: Manong (GM) Ted Buot my Balintawak instructor was known within the Balintawak community as the one that GM Bacon would let teach when he was not present at the Training area behind the watch store on Balintawak Street. He is not well know outside the old timers, and many (Most) have past away. So, working on my premise above I would be the second generation from GM Bacon the founder, and that means either the FMA industry needs to know and respect me as a member (which I hope it does in general) and or I need to establish a minimum (repeatable) requirement for teaching.

I have also found that when the numbers grow even within a short number of generations then people do not know others (GM Remy Presas) and then some form of consistent documentation should be used and is recommended.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yeah but even in these systems, it always causes quite a stir when someone who hasn’t been blessed to teach does so. it’s also very common in the CMA styles. So much drama over ceremonial adequacy.

Quoting Steve for continuity not to disagree or argue, only to provide an example of said drama.

While my Balintawak GM (Ted Buot) was alive and someone came to visit and they staid at my house the night before.
Of course we trained. This visitor was a recognized Master in one of the Balintawak grouping Organizations.
He was striking so far away from me I was not reacting as he was not entering a danger zone.
I stopped the action and asked what his intent for those moves and the mindset.
He explained for safety to avoid head shots actually hitting they went outside.

I gave a backhand watik (flick like motion) like strike to his right shoulder - and hit / touched him.
He looked concerned. I asked him to hit my shoulder. He did very soft. I said a littler harder. He did. And then asked for a third.
He did.

I then said You have hit me three to one so no matter what happens you can tell people that. We both laughed.
I then explained that if he me in the shoulder and that was his target, and I did not block in time I would call it a point on his side in our continuous motion. He agreed. He then proceeded to adapt and move in a little closer. The strikes were in the threat zone so of course I blocked and would counter.

After a few minutes of placing my shots and not hitting him, he said Master Rich, explain this or that.
I explained it was just Rich especially as a guest in my house.

He saw my GM the next day and many other local students showed up to see him also. I showed up later in the afternoon, unable to get out of work. The Guess / Visitor called me Master Rich. The rest of the students visibly got upset. Some grumbles. Some frowns . Some shaking of the head.
I continued to ask to be just Rich.
Finally my Instructor placed his hand on mine and said it was ok, let it go.
So I staid until everyone had left and asked for an explanation, as we not not have ranks and titles amongst us. The Students called our instructor Manong Ted in person and GM Buot online for respect. He said The visitor explained what I had done, and that he openly told him what had happened. He said that if the others wanted to be recognized amongst the larger community they could pick up a stick and see what happens.

There still is some hurt feelings today over 17 years later.
Drama

 

[Rich Parsons]

It´s like where i grew up, you had fist fights with other towns nearby. you knew who could fight & was "game". simple as that. no bull just reality.

Most just came to the place I worked
It helped pay for college. Small Sacrifice for a better future.

 

[Hyoho]

As I have gotten older, the belt/rank thing means very little to me.
It is really all about perspective.
An instructor will use belting as an organizational tool.
A young, competitive person will see it as the next level of competition.
A casual learner will see the next belt as a milestone.
A narcissist will see it as crowing rights.

Never seen a fake belt but even in Japan one gets to the stage that is also not what you know but who you know that gets you to the next. A senior told me that the highest dropout rate is with 6th Dan.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Never seen a fake belt but even in Japan one gets to the stage that is also not what you know but who you know that gets you to the next. A senior told me that the highest dropout rate is with 6th Dan.

I think after 3rd Dan there's nothing more technique wise to learn.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Quoting Steve for continuity not to disagree or argue, only to provide an example of said drama.

While my Balintawak GM (Ted Buot) was alive and someone came to visit and they staid at my house the night before.
Of course we trained. This visitor was a recognized Master in one of the Balintawak grouping Organizations.
He was striking so far away from me I was not reacting as he was not entering a danger zone.
I stopped the action and asked what his intent for those moves and the mindset.
He explained for safety to avoid head shots actually hitting they went outside.

I gave a backhand watik (flick like motion) like strike to his right shoulder - and hit / touched him.
He looked concerned. I asked him to hit my shoulder. He did very soft. I said a littler harder. He did. And then asked for a third.
He did.

I then said You have hit me three to one so no matter what happens you can tell people that. We both laughed.
I then explained that if he me in the shoulder and that was his target, and I did not block in time I would call it a point on his side in our continuous motion. He agreed. He then proceeded to adapt and move in a little closer. The strikes were in the threat zone so of course I blocked and would counter.

After a few minutes of placing my shots and not hitting him, he said Master Rich, explain this or that.
I explained it was just Rich especially as a guest in my house.

He saw my GM the next day and many other local students showed up to see him also. I showed up later in the afternoon, unable to get out of work. The Guess / Visitor called me Master Rich. The rest of the students visibly got upset. Some grumbles. Some frowns . Some shaking of the head.
I continued to ask to be just Rich.
Finally my Instructor placed his hand on mine and said it was ok, let it go.
So I staid until everyone had left and asked for an explanation, as we not not have ranks and titles amongst us. The Students called our instructor Manong Ted in person and GM Buot online for respect. He said The visitor explained what I had done, and that he openly told him what had happened. He said that if the others wanted to be recognized amongst the larger community they could pick up a stick and see what happens.

There still is some hurt feelings today over 17 years later.
Drama

Sounds like you've great stories to tell. Definitely would like to hear about their training methods.

 

[drop bear]

I think after 3rd Dan there's nothing more technique wise to learn.

It is generally a political appointment by then.

 

[Jimmythebull]

It is generally a political appointment by then.

Yup...

 

[tkdroamer]

I think after 3rd Dan there's nothing more technique wise to learn.

Not completely true but the number of completely different techniques has decreased dramatically. This is the time for refinement and learning the actual technique within the movements. And how to make them you own.

 

[Jimmythebull]

And how to make them you own.

how so ?

 

[tkdroamer]

how so ?

Personal creativity. Anatomy plays a part in this.