Fake bjj black belt exposed

[Gerry Seymour]

I'll also add that if a school doesn't compete for the reasons above, that's a real shame. it's a very short step from this to the dilemma we are currently discussing with aikido. A school that isolates itself from the community, and avoids calibration, is creating all kinds of reasons they can't or won't demonstrate that their execution of technique actually works. Just like aikido. Could it work? At that point, who the heck could say?

I don't think they're isolated from the community. It's not uncommon for someone to drop in on them to train for a while, and that gives much of that calibration. The issue we're discussing in Aikido has more to do with lack of resistance. When rolling in BJJ, there's plenty of resistance, and that's enough "competition" to keep the approach realistic, IMO. I agree that competitions create better calibration between schools, and it's nice if some of the senior students and/or instructors in a school participate in competitions to gain this calibration, but it's not a necessary component for keeping the style realistic.

 

[Steve]

I don't think they're isolated from the community. It's not uncommon for someone to drop in on them to train for a while, and that gives much of that calibration. The issue we're discussing in Aikido has more to do with lack of resistance. When rolling in BJJ, there's plenty of resistance, and that's enough "competition" to keep the approach realistic, IMO. I agree that competitions create better calibration between schools, and it's nice if some of the senior students and/or instructors in a school participate in competitions to gain this calibration, but it's not a necessary component for keeping the style realistic.

I disagree. The value of competition is that it provides objective feedback. you can't calibrate a scale against itself and expect to get the correct weight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree. The value of competition is that it provides objective feedback. you can't calibrate a scale against itself and expect to get the correct weight.

But it's not a single person being calibrated against himself/herself. It's calibration within a system. The scale analogy only applies here when we talk about ranks, and on that point I agree. If nobody within a school rolls with people outside that school from time to time, the ranks will likely eventually become uncalibrated. However, so long as a group starts with good skill levels and committed opposition (resistance) when rolling, they will maintain a similar level of skill, irrespective of what the belts say, to any other school with similar intensity and skill of training. There's definitely an advantage or two in attending competition - experiencing approaches from other "flavors" of the art, getting to try more different people than just at the school, finding what works when the opponent doesn't know your game intimately, etc. But I don't think those are absolutely necessary for the art to remain effective - the internal competition during rolling (hopefully including some cross-visits between schools) is more important for that than an occasional influence from a competition.

 

[Steve]

But it's not a single person being calibrated against himself/herself. It's calibration within a system. The scale analogy only applies here when we talk about ranks, and on that point I agree. If nobody within a school rolls with people outside that school from time to time, the ranks will likely eventually become uncalibrated. However, so long as a group starts with good skill levels and committed opposition (resistance) when rolling, they will maintain a similar level of skill, irrespective of what the belts say, to any other school with similar intensity and skill of training. There's definitely an advantage or two in attending competition - experiencing approaches from other "flavors" of the art, getting to try more different people than just at the school, finding what works when the opponent doesn't know your game intimately, etc. But I don't think those are absolutely necessary for the art to remain effective - the internal competition during rolling (hopefully including some cross-visits between schools) is more important for that than an occasional influence from a competition.

Rolling with people doesn't equal competition. They aren't equivalent. I think we fundamentally disagree here, and that's okay. I'm interested to hear from other BJJ guys on this like @Charlemagne, @Tony Dismukes and @Hanzou. Maybe I'm the outlier here, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Rolling with people doesn't equal competition. They aren't equivalent. I think we fundamentally disagree here, and that's okay. I'm interested to hear from other BJJ guys on this like @Charlemagne, @Tony Dismukes and @Hanzou. Maybe I'm the outlier here, too.

I'm actually interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this, Steve. You're much more a proponent of outside competition than I am, and I'm trying to understand that difference. What is fundamentally different to you about competition within a school versus competition from outside? The main risk I see if there's no outside competition is that resistance might stop being real resistance as folks subconsciously start assuming a person who is better than them will always beat them, and any committed outside influence (like attending a competition) makes that obvious.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Rolling with people doesn't equal competition. They aren't equivalent. I think we fundamentally disagree here, and that's okay. I'm interested to hear from other BJJ guys on this like @Charlemagne, @Tony Dismukes and @Hanzou. Maybe I'm the outlier here, too.

Rolling with your training partners shouldn't be the same as all-out competition, at least not as a default, since that's not the best way to learn. Even so, competitive rolls typically happen often enough in-house that they can provide a decent degree of calibration.

Competition has some advantages for testing purposes. You get more of an adrenaline rush. The participants are typically bringing their A game rather than experimenting with new techniques and tactics for the sake of learning.

At the same time, there are some disadvantages as well. Competitors may become focused on how to win within a certain limited rule set at the expense of development in the whole art. Raw athleticism plays a greater role, which may not be what you want to consider as a primary factor in calibrating rank standards.

When I roll with people from other schools I'm typically pretty dominant over the white through purple belts and in the same general league as most of the brown and black belts. In a tournament I would be at a disadvantage against most of those black belts since they would be bringing their full athleticism to bear and they're generally 20+ years younger than I am. (None of the tournaments I've attended have been big enough to have an over-50 black belt bracket. I'd be happy with an over-40 bracket, but they don't have those or even an over-30 bracket.) Even without the tournament validation, I'm reasonably confident that the ranking standards at my school are comparable to others in the area.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One area where I'm concerned that BJJ may be moving away from good calibration standards is in calibration against non-BJJ practitioners. Gracie Challenge matches against practitioners of other styles used to be a regular thing. Now that aspect has largely been shifted over to those who train and compete in MMA. In more and more schools (even those which offer MMA training) you have many BJJ students who only train for grappling competition in the gi and have no experience dealing with strikes or practitioners of other martial arts. For these people, BJJ is a sport rather than a martial art. I have no problem with those who love the sport aspect, but I feel like something is lost when the martial art is neglected.

 

[Charlemagne]

Rolling with people doesn't equal competition. They aren't equivalent. I think we fundamentally disagree here, and that's okay. I'm interested to hear from other BJJ guys on this like @Charlemagne, @Tony Dismukes and @Hanzou. Maybe I'm the outlier here, too.

I personally have only been training Jiu-Jitsu a short time, so my experience should not be taken as Gospel. However, I have not seen a place yet that does not have either the instructor, or some of the students, participating in competition. Having said that, one of the knocks that BJJ'ers use against some of the more classical Martial Arts is that they don't practice against a resisting opponent, not that they don't compete. If a particular BJJ studio didn't have anyone competing, but they regularly rolled hard in class and were open to outsiders coming to train and their students did drop ins at other places while they traveled, I don't see that as a big red flag.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One area where I'm concerned that BJJ may be moving away from good calibration standards is in calibration against non-BJJ practitioners. Gracie Challenge matches against practitioners of other styles used to be a regular thing. Now that aspect has largely been shifted over to those who train and compete in MMA. In more and more schools (even those which offer MMA training) you have many BJJ students who only train for grappling competition in the gi and have no experience dealing with strikes or practitioners of other martial arts. For these people, BJJ is a sport rather than a martial art. I have no problem with those who love the sport aspect, but I feel like something is lost when the martial art is neglected.

This ability to deal with attacks that are outside the norm of BJJ's delivery has been one of its strengths. As someone watching mostly from the outside, it's something I've always thought defined BJJ differently from most arts/styles. I see the influence of the diminishing focus on this in some of the competition videos I watch, as some habits appear to ignore the chance of getting hit (a risk not present in many competitions). These habits gain an advantage in a grappling-only context, but would be a disadvantage in any other. Keeping that influence from "challenge matches" or even from friendly sparring with other styles would definitely benefit BJJ.

 

[Charlemagne]

One area where I'm concerned that BJJ may be moving away from good calibration standards is in calibration against non-BJJ practitioners. Gracie Challenge matches against practitioners of other styles used to be a regular thing. Now that aspect has largely been shifted over to those who train and compete in MMA. In more and more schools (even those which offer MMA training) you have many BJJ students who only train for grappling competition in the gi and have no experience dealing with strikes or practitioners of other martial arts. For these people, BJJ is a sport rather than a martial art. I have no problem with those who love the sport aspect, but I feel like something is lost when the martial art is neglected.

This ability to deal with attacks that are outside the norm of BJJ's delivery has been one of its strengths. As someone watching mostly from the outside, it's something I've always thought defined BJJ differently from most arts/styles. I see the influence of the diminishing focus on this in some of the competition videos I watch, as some habits appear to ignore the chance of getting hit (a risk not present in many competitions). These habits gain an advantage in a grappling-only context, but would be a disadvantage in any other. Keeping that influence from "challenge matches" or even from friendly sparring with other styles would definitely benefit BJJ.

I agree with those comments, and it is one of the big things that Rickson, Pedro Sauer, Ryron and Rener, etc. have been going on about for some time now. The emphasis on sport in the form of grappling competition has led to many movements and positions in BJJ that leave you completely exposed to strikes. This is a fundamentally different philosophy from the origins of the art, and one of the big reasons that I am fan of a standardized curriculum, particularly for the early belts, so that all students get exposed to those concepts and practice them while rolling.

Later on, if someone really gets into the competition scene, they can move to some of the more crazy positions or techniques. However, I think it is worth noting that guys like Roger Gracie, Kron Gracie, Xande and Saulo Ribeiro, etc. are still kicking tail with "basic" BJJ. So, I am honestly not sure that some of those positions are essential for succeeding at high level grappling competitions.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I agree with those comments, and it is one of the big things that Rickson, Pedro Sauer, Ryron and Rener, etc. have been going on about for some time now. The emphasis on sport in the form of grappling competition has led to many movements and positions in BJJ that leave you completely exposed to strikes. This is a fundamentally different philosophy from the origins of the art, and one of the big reasons that I am fan of a standardized curriculum, particularly for the early belts, so that all students get exposed to those concepts and practice them while rolling.

Later on, if someone really gets into the competition scene, they can move to some of the more crazy positions or techniques. However, I think it is worth noting that guys like Roger Gracie, Kron Gracie, Xande and Saulo Ribeiro, etc. are still kicking tail with "basic" BJJ. So, I am honestly not sure that some of those positions are essential for succeeding at high level grappling competitions.

It's not just a matter of the specialized positions and tactics which are becoming common in grappling competition. Even the crazier ones could have some potential use or lesson for a practitioner focused on martial application. It's more a matter of just having experience with someone trying to punch you in the face or otherwise mess you up in a way not allowed in competition.

I'm not the most badass of BJJ black belts by a long shot, but I do have experience sparring practitioners of Boxing, Karate, Muay Thai, Kung Fu, Kali, Jukado, Judo, Sambo, and more. I worry when I see BJJ students getting promoted to blue, purple, etc without ever having someone try to hit them in the face.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Other than money, why would anyone fake knowledge in a sport art?

Never did understand that.

 

[Charlemagne]

Other than money, why would anyone fake knowledge in a sport art?

Never did understand that.

Other than money, ego is the thing that comes to mind.

 

[Tez3]

Other than money, why would anyone fake knowledge in a sport art?

Never did understand that.

For the same reason people go around saying they were in the military when they weren't, and it's never just the military it's always special forces. We call them Walts here ( after Walter Mitty)

 

[Buka]

I think a lot depends on the players involved. In an isolated school with minimal numbers of students, if you train for any length of time you'll learn to adjust what you do comfortably - to who you are rolling/sparring with. That will happen in a large school as well, especially if you stay for a long period, but the numbers can matter a bit.

Competing gives you several avenues for growth that I haven't ever been able to figure another way to get. The most obvious is the "complete stranger". Never saw the guy, nobody knows him, not his strengths or weaknesses, nada. Applying what you do, how you fight, to the stranger can be a great or frustrating learning experience. Another related benefit is if you get to watch people in the first round, that you will eventually fight, it can be a learning experience to sharpen your observational and adaptive skills. Especially if you compete several times or more.

If a group of competitors come from a school, but not the majority of that school is competing, you can pretty much figure it's not going to be their weakest fighters, it's probably going to be their better fighters. Competing against strong fighters can only sharpen your game. Especially when you don't know them.

I'm not relating this to self defense skills, but it can sharpen some of them as well. It takes you out of your comfort zone, way out of your comfort zone. If you roll/sparr at your school as part of your training, that's going to be the single most comfortable place you will ever do so. More comfortable than in your own home. I'm not equating the pressure and emotional upheaval of a self defense encounter to competing (entirely different animal) but it is an increase in pressure, emotion, adrenaline and the unknown just the same.

I'll tell you what else. If you drive three hours to a competition, wait another three to hear your name called, then get your butt smoked right out of the gate - you can bet you'll be better prepared the next time, because it really, really sucks.

I also think that if a school gears it's training specifically and only to competition, that's a huge mistake. But I don't know if schools actually do that.

 

[Charlemagne]

I also think that if a school gears it's training specifically and only to competition, that's a huge mistake. But I don't know if schools actually do that.

Many do these days.

 

[Steve]

Many do these days.

Teaching to the test is a bad idea. But the answer isn't to stop testing. It's to keep the test in perspective. Nothing you do in a school can ever replace the objective feedback you get by risking complete failure outside the school.

Sparring isn't competition. There are so many things that happen to you internally and externally when you are preparing to compete and actually competing that don't happen while rolling in a school.

Even if guys drop in, there is etiquette involved. You don't go into a school in competition mode. It's just not done.

Rather than avoiding competition altogether, I think it's great that there are so many emerging rule sets that are different from the IBJJF rules. It keeps you from training for one context and can, as designed, help you identify gaps.

Not competing. I don't know. Seems completely foreign to the spirit of BJJ.

 

[Charlemagne]

Teaching to the test is a bad idea. But the answer isn't to stop testing. It's to keep the test in perspective. Nothing you do in a school can ever replace the objective feedback you get by risking complete failure outside the school.

Sparring isn't competition. There are so many things that happen to you internally and externally when you are preparing to compete and actually competing that don't happen while rolling in a school.

Even if guys drop in, there is etiquette involved. You don't go into a school in competition mode. It's just not done.

Rather than avoiding competition altogether, I think it's great that there are so many emerging rule sets that are different from the IBJJF rules. It keeps you from training for one context and can, as designed, help you identify gaps.

Not competing. I don't know. Seems completely foreign to the spirit of BJJ.

My comment was in response to whether there were schools that trained only for competitions.

 

[Steve]

My comment was in response to whether there were schools that trained only for competitions.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Teaching to the test is a bad idea. Meaning, of a school only teaches to the test, that's not good. The answer, however, isn't to stop testing.

In other words, using schools which train only for competition to justify not competing is a bad, bad idea. The idea of a Bjj school that doesn't compete just doesn't compute for me. It's a huge red flag.

 

[Charlemagne]

Sorry I wasn't clear. Teaching to the test is a bad idea. Meaning, of a school only teaches to the test, that's not good. The answer, however, isn't to stop testing.

In other words, using schools which train only for competition to justify not competing is a bad, bad idea. The idea of a Bjj school that doesn't compete just doesn't compute for me. It's a huge red flag.

I understand where you are coming from. And, as I noted above, I have never been to, or even heard about, a legit Jiu-Jitsu school that doesn't have someone, either students or instructors, competing at some level.