Fake black belts

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you are confusing Objectivity with Objective.

Nope.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Nope.

yes

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no ..but are they? you seem to be twisting this Gerry.

Compared to some, in some ways probably. In other ways, no.

But then, that's a question you had to know has more than a yes/no answer. Which just goes to my prior point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes

Then you didn't read what I wrote....or just didn't understand the words. I'll try to keep them simpler for you.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Then you didn't read what I wrote....or just didn't understand the words. I'll try to keep them simpler for you.

thank you Gerry... hell you´re my buddy

 

[Jimmythebull]

Compared to some, in some ways probably. In other ways, no.

But then, that's a question you had to know has more than a yes/no answer. Which just goes to my prior point.

Gerry are you by any chance a Lawyer?

 

[drop bear]

If the objective is to be a Dan grade then the standards must be relevant.

Do you know what a weasel word is?

Dan grade is so vague as to be able to mean anything.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gerry are you by any chance a Lawyer?

Nope, but I can see why you'd ask.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you know what a weasel word is?

Dan grade is so vague as to be able to mean anything.

Certainly between associations, this is 100% true.

 

[tkdroamer]

Sorry but you can't be seriously telling me that you can learn from the above & then teach people.


Exactly a Standard which is tested. No they're not required but then don't say your a black belt and qualified.



I disagree they've attained that level & will probably be a better brown belt than most at that level. I've seen a brown belt teach at a Club here & he stayed brown belt for years as you said but he was not like the Black belts in the Club. I saw it. It probably depends on the Club, given the answers so far from you & Gerry it sounds like in the USA the standards are very poor. Here in Europe it seems to be higher standards. Also as I mentioned before a Dan grade if teaching or even a brown belt(in a Club say teaching kids) has to Also pass other licences to teach people. Social competence..etc.
I'm not saying all black belts here are top but there's definitely a Set Standard which from your posts are lacking.

We will disagree on this one to the end I suspect. How you draw such a ridiculous conclusion based on zero information is strange at best.
Tools like Zoom and Youtube are excellent for people who travel a lot or who already have experience and need a refresher.
In any club/school in every part of the world, there will people who are casual in their training and people who are very, very competitive. This is exactly why there are schools of all different flavors. Neither are explicitly wrong however they may be completely wrong for the other person. Your "Hulk smash" persona of 'your' schools vs. American schools is laughable. I know people who hold no formal rank at all that will mop the floor with 80% of the black belts out there.
People stay a certain rank for many reasons. Some people start and stop training because life gets in the way. As said, some people are just not very competitive and train for strictly self-defense purposes. Some people have physical limitations. Some people, unlike you I suspect, do not chase rank.
Your license claim does not hold water as well. In the states, the things you mention are required at both the business/owner level and the teacher level (whatever the heck social competence is).
You presume much. You do not know me, nor I assume others here on this forum beyond the screen, so politely, get over yourself.

 

[tkdroamer]

There is no common governmental regulation in the US. And even without that, in many arts, a BB isn’t equivalent to an instructor certification from many organizations. You seem to be equating the two.

And I would add in any other country either, beyond the boilerplate governmental standards that apply across several sectors.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And I would add in any other country either, beyond the boilerplate governmental standards that apply across several sectors.

I avoided speaking of other countries, because I know nothing of their regulations. I did have a student from Germany who said some arts use a standardized approach there, but I don’t know how even that crosses over from art to art.

 

[Hyoho]

When I used to teach and use other people facilities they would ask for association qualifications and teaching awards. It was the norm based on insurance. Another problem is there is still some weird idea in the West that Shodan (first degree black belt) is a teacher. This is simply not the case. An exception to this would be some one trying to start upa new dojo and promote the art where there were no other teachers.

I was hoping over the years with so many Westerners going to practice long term in Japan then going home would change these attitudes. The funny side is training and working like a dog in Japan to pass 7th dan. Then going to visit the West and having some rather inexperienced guy come up to you to say "I'm 7th dan too"

 

[Jimmythebull]

will disagree on this one to the end I suspect. How you draw such a ridiculous conclusion based on zero information is strange at best.

Ditto....

 

[Jimmythebull]

The funny side is training and working like a dog in Japan to pass 7th dan. Then going to visit the West and having some rather inexperienced guy come up to you to say "I'm 7th dan too

You know years,ago I trained with a guy who I think was a 3rd Dan in Iwama Ryu Aikido & he told me the training is nothing like in Iwama with Saito Sensei. Was an older guy who I definitely respcted & he was often in Iwama during his life. He asked me to go with him & it was his last trip as he was dying & knew it. Sadly he never made it.
On the other side of the coin the West has beaten japanese Dan Grades on many occasions, Judo tops the list. My favourite boyhood hero...

 

[tkdroamer]

When I used to teach and use other people facilities they would ask for association qualifications and teaching awards. It was the norm based on insurance. Another problem is there is still some weird idea in the West that Shodan (first degree black belt) is a teacher. This is simply not the case. An exception to this would be some one trying to start upa new dojo and promote the art where there were no other teachers.

I was hoping over the years with so many Westerners going to practice long term in Japan then going home would change these attitudes. The funny side is training and working like a dog in Japan to pass 7th dan. Then going to visit the West and having some rather inexperienced guy come up to you to say "I'm 7th dan too"

A very sad truth. In the business sense, money is the number one driver in the States. That is why our economy generates exponentially more per capita than any other country in the world. A fairly new thing I have been seeing that makes me cringe are businesses that will sell anyone a martial arts business (no credentials required) for a franchise fee, lock, stock, & barrel. Give you a written plan and off you go. But as even a moderately informed buyer, a person from the states learns the true meaning of "buyer beware".

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that most of the schools in Japan are smaller, more personal, basement style setups. Not so much of a commercial environment.

Something else that jumped out in your post; qualification and awards are so easily made up they often carry no weight. Especially if a person is even moderately informed.
An example is when a tournament promoter uses the phrase "National Championship". So many schools holding local tournaments used the same phrase in their tournament advertising that it has diminished the meaning. Winning any local, district, or even regional tournament does not a national champion make. A winner and a fine accomplishment? Yes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Another problem is there is still some weird idea in the West that Shodan (first degree black belt) is a teacher. This is simply not the case.

This was prevalent enough when NGA was brought to the US that the ranking here is designed around that idea. You can’t get Shodan with the NGAA without qualifying as an instructor. It takes most folks 7 years or so.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Could this guy be considered a fake?

Well that demo certainly is.

 

[Hyoho]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that most of the schools in Japan are smaller, more personal, basement style setups. Not so much of a commercial environment.

Genbudo such as Judo and Kendo are main stay in Japan. They are integrated into sports education. Karate is on a private basis and not so prevalent. In actual fact children/students take up the main MA population in Japan. Minimum requirements of Sandan to get jobs such as police/prison service. Teaching requires a degree. So one in Phys/Ed will get you a job in education in these subjects. Classical arts are few and far between. Some years ago only 2% of the population did MA. Not sure of those figures now as the child population has dropped through the floor. And no, not commercialized. It's a community activity.

 

[Steve]

I believe this is exactly Gerry's point. A person who has been a brown belt for 20+ years by their own choice, and continued to practice, is more qualified than some of the people who would have been promoting them.

Yes, tests are there to set a standard. But that never means they are required for everyone. In this context, your field has a grey zone. Plus, with the advent of enhanced training tools (zoom, video, etc...) it is easier now than ever before.

Relevant tangent here. There was a guy named Thorstein Veblen who is most famous for coining the phrase conspicuous consumption. He also described something called ceremonial adequacy.

where credentials are concerned, sometimes experience and ability are not enough. You can be an extremely talented welder, but you can’t work in Washington state without the appropriate certification. Similarly, you can’t put “5 credits short of a Bachelors degree” on your resume.

And sometimes, where credentials are required, a less competent person may be more qualified.