Eye jab(biu jee from wc&jkd) vs tiger claw

[JowGaWolf]

A dead set knuckle in the eye will blind you. While also being a pinch if you miss.

It happens a bit with the smaller mma gloves.

I'm of the opinion that anything in the eye is bad. It doesn't take much to screw it up. I know from experience thst getting punched in the eyeball will temporarily cause vision loss. Everything goes black then fades back into vision. I had a lacrosse bal hit me in the eye. I think I had a concussion that day but it caused me to walk out of practice. I would have been OK if it hit my face but I caught it right in the eye. Eye lids are awesome and blinking speed is awesome. Manual blinking speed sucks so I never train not to blink my eyes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Neither. If you use your fingers to slide across your opponent's eyes, you will have better chance that one of your fingers can hit one of your opponent's eyeballs.

Jow Ga has a vertical strike and horizontal strikes that works but it dives into the eye then curves. The technique is done at the end of the first bow in most of the forms.

 

[Badhabits]

I mostly practiced strikes to eyes as close range technique, either sort of flicking the fingers at the eyes, or a palm heel that comes up the underside of the jaw and then flows up over the face with finger tips going in the eyes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Tiger claw used for redirecting looks like this.

The hand is supposed to be pulled back. He gets slack with it and doesn't do it, but you can him do with some of the redirect, this is like turning your hand into a type of hook which makes it easier to grab. It also helps to prevent fingers from getting jammed.

More examples

This is tiger claw for both hands. This is the range I would recomend it.

That way if he tries, to escape, This is the structure. Holding your hands in this position and arms in this position makes it really difficult to move your away. The top arm reinforces the pinning arm. This means that you dont' have to use effort with your pinning arm to keep him in position. If I want to prevent someone from pulling my pinning arm down then I would need to pull my pinning arm into my reinfocing arm and it will prevent downward movement on the arm. The pulling up motion becomes stronger if it is pulling against the pushing down energy of your reinforcing arm.

The extension of the tiger claw looks occurs here, when they try to escape. This is why you grip /snatch the face to prevent his escape.

If I didn't think I was going to reach his face (this will be predetermined based on how close I think I'm going to get when I do the technique.) I would use the tiger clawon my pinning arm to hook and pull his body towards me (to bring him closer) and across my body (to turn him so that he can't find the accurate resistance.). This would open up his ribs and organs for punching or for grabbing his organs. Similar to below.

 

[gyoja]

Tiger claw used for redirecting looks like this.

The hand is supposed to be pulled back. He gets slack with it and doesn't do it, but you can him do with some of the redirect, this is like turning your hand into a type of hook which makes it easier to grab. It also helps to prevent fingers from getting jammed.

More examples

This is tiger claw for both hands. This is the range I would recomend it.
View attachment 30924

That way if he tries, to escape, This is the structure. Holding your hands in this position and arms in this position makes it really difficult to move your away. The top arm reinforces the pinning arm. This means that you dont' have to use effort with your pinning arm to keep him in position. If I want to prevent someone from pulling my pinning arm down then I would need to pull my pinning arm into my reinfocing arm and it will prevent downward movement on the arm. The pulling up motion becomes stronger if it is pulling against the pushing down energy of your reinforcing arm.
View attachment 30925

The extension of the tiger claw looks occurs here, when they try to escape. This is why you grip /snatch the face to prevent his escape.
View attachment 30926

If I didn't think I was going to reach his face (this will be predetermined based on how close I think I'm going to get when I do the technique.) I would use the tiger clawon my pinning arm to hook and pull his body towards me (to bring him closer) and across my body (to turn him so that he can't find the accurate resistance.). This would open up his ribs and organs for punching or for grabbing his organs. Similar to below.

View attachment 30927

Thank you for sharing

 

[JowGaWolf]

Watch the teacher extend his arms out with a push with palm facing forward then he lowers his fingers (palm facing down). That's the eye strike as Kung Fu wang was talking about.

Some tiger and snake here. This guy always makes me feel slack and it's always difficult for me to not jump in the gum ramp up which usually results in an injury. lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I was going to add something to my skill set for self-defense. It wouldn't be eye pokes. If I was going to add Kung Fu to my skill set, then I would take a class and get some formal teaching. I wouldn't try to learn from random videos. If I couldn't communicate with the person teaching and if they can't explain realistic and correct application then I wouldn't choose video.

Kung Fu uses a lot of small things to make the techniques effective. Leave the small stuff out and it falls apart. Everything that is small is big. Everything that is big is small.

 

[gyoja]

If I was going to add something to my skill set for self-defense. It wouldn't be eye pokes. If I was going to add Kung Fu to my skill set, then I would take a class and get some formal teaching. I wouldn't try to learn from random videos. If I couldn't communicate with the person teaching and if they can't explain realistic and correct application then I wouldn't choose video.

Kung Fu uses a lot of small things to make the techniques effective. Leave the small stuff out and it falls apart. Everything that is small is big. Everything that is big is small.

I agree, however it is interesting to see techniques in other systems that are similar to ours.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't think of it as a speed thing. For me it's a positional issue mixed with a " what next?" Issue. If I want to just use the finger tips then I may go for the eyes after trapping. If I miss then my opponent will be able to recover. With tiger claw I may be defending arm control and I want ultimately stop playing that game
Here I may shoot my arm upward on the inside to go for the eyes. The natural instinct is to close your eyes when you see something coming towards your eyes. If you haven't closed your eyes yet then you will once my fingers make contact.

The second naural reaction is to move your head away from danger. This is where the grab comes into play. If the grab has not damaged the eyes the it has at a minimum reduced your vision and establishes head control in facial injury. One the grab sinks in then I can pull or push as needed. I can sing the grip for a long period of time or for a short period of time as long as I move the head and inflict pain.

The same way BJJ and Judo tugs the gi is the same concept that a I want to use with the face. Worst case scenario blind in both eyes. Best case is that your opponent has saved this eyes and only has facial injury.

I personally wouldn't try to use tiger claw outside of grappling range unless it's being used to redirect strickes or to deliver palm strikes with the option of grabbing after the palm lands.

I don’t over think it, a quick horizontal flick to obscure vision in any way, whether I make contact or not, is useful. Extended fingers mean extended range. Single knuckle punch is good too. Too much planning and strategies won’t really be very useful outside of sparring or practice sessions. Focused eye strikes are like that spice in the back of my cabinet that I only find use for once in a great while. All that said, I’m no chef, you do you. Whatever works.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Too much planning and strategies won’t really be very useful outside of sparring or practice sessions.

Planning should never take long. It should start as soon as the conflict starts and before the punches are thrown. If a person can't plan on the fly, then that's something they should work on. Running scenarios help make those decisions easier. Just thinking about "What would I realistically do?" is better than going blank. I personally have never been in a conflict on the street that I didn't see coming or building up.

While they are yelling at me and trying to intimidate me, I'm quickly working out a plan or more accurately an approach.

Too much planning and strategies won’t really be very useful outside of sparring or practice sessions.

You don't need many. All you need is a point of entry and point of escape. You'll either attack, defend, or avoid physical contact, but your positioning should always be the one that leads you to the best opportunity to that approach.
We can see that here. He starts to creep. That was his game plan from the beginning. He probably planned that while he was checking the guy out.

But I'm with you. Demo's are one thing with 4 and 5 hit combos. But if the work can be done in 3 then there's a problem. Like that one knife video of 5 cuts. Jow ga would have simply say move guard hand stab head. end of fight. lol

I don’t over think it, a quick horizontal flick to obscure vision in any way, whether I make contact or not, is useful. Extended fingers mean extended range. Single knuckle punch is good too. Too much planning and strategies won’t really be very useful outside of sparring or practice sessions. Focused eye strikes are like that spice in the back of my cabinet that I only find use for once in a great while. All that said, I’m no chef, you do you. Whatever works.

Focused eye strikes ARE that spice in the back of your cabinet that I only find use for once in a great while. I personally have never planned for an eye strike solution. The reason why is because most grappling efforts present opportunities to strike the eyes. They are just really nasty things that most people aren't going to have the stomach for. Accident is one thing, intentionally yeah, it can be brutal

This is why I say teach that allowing an opponent to place their lead hand in front without punishment is a sin. This good poked in the eye and it ended the fight. All of these are nasty. For me the lead arm is like a witch that needs to be burned. It doesn't matter if it's innocent or not. Unfortunately, many of my students couldn't understand the level of hate they should have for their opponent's lead arm lol.

Eye pokes are just "another level" thing. The real problem with it, is that. If I miss then I give my enemy the idea for poking me in the eye.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Eye jabs are more like bonus gifts that you get while doing something else

I think this is the best way to approach this issue overall. But of course, there may be opportunities for a dedicated premeditated eye strike. Here are some other thoughts on the subject that may be worthy of comments:

1. Most of us (being brought up in a civilized manner) have an aversion to potentially blinding an opponent except in a life or death situation.

2. Per the above, usage of the technique is rare. Rarely-used leads to rarely-trained. Rarely-trained leads to imperfect execution.

3. The eye is situated in a concave orbit extending about 1/4" radius in all directions from the eye. This allows for a margin of error in accuracy as the finger will be guided into the eyeball to some degree. (You can use the "pi" function to see how much % this enlarges the target area. I think it's significant.)

4. The above notwithstanding, I'm glad if I can get a clean strike to anywhere on the face.

5. Little striking power is needed to damage the eye as it's being focused on the small surface area of the fingertip/s as well as the eyeball being a sensitive target.

6. Highest percentage of getting the eyeball I think is during grappling with the opponent's head when a thumb can easily find its way to apply pressure or the hand can easily rake the face.

As you see, there are some pros and some cons to consider. Targeting the eyes, like any vital point, usually takes extra prep and skill. The question is, is it worth the extra practice time for you and does it fit in with your style of fighting? Is it a necessary tool to have?

Again, IMO, my view is that the opening quote paints the most reasonable default viewpoint. But if the opportunity presents itself....

 

[JowGaWolf]

4. The above notwithstanding, I'm glad if I can get a clean strike to anywhere on the face.

And this is the reality. How difficult is it to punch the head. Now draw a nickel sized circle on the head and only hit that target while avoiding punches and kicks, while the head and body moves around and the hand defends.

It becomes difficult. I haven't even factored in reaction time and speed, or height and arm length.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Speaking of difficulty. The backfist to the head gets me. lol.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How difficult is it to punch the head.

After you have obtained a successful head lock, a follow up uppercut should be easy.

 

[_Simon_]

REALLY thought this thread was about steak upon seeing the title... eye fillet, cooked blue, wagyu maybe... maybe I'm just hungry...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Planning should never take long. It should start as soon as the conflict starts and before the punches are thrown. If a person can't plan on the fly, then that's something they should work on. Running scenarios help make those decisions easier. Just thinking about "What would I realistically do?" is better than going blank. I personally have never been in a conflict on the street that I didn't see coming or building up.

While they are yelling at me and trying to intimidate me, I'm quickly working out a plan or more accurately an approach.


You don't need many. All you need is a point of entry and point of escape. You'll either attack, defend, or avoid physical contact, but your positioning should always be the one that leads you to the best opportunity to that approach.
We can see that here. He starts to creep. That was his game plan from the beginning. He probably planned that while he was checking the guy out.

But I'm with you. Demo's are one thing with 4 and 5 hit combos. But if the work can be done in 3 then there's a problem. Like that one knife video of 5 cuts. Jow ga would have simply say move guard hand stab head. end of fight. lol



Focused eye strikes ARE that spice in the back of your cabinet that I only find use for once in a great while. I personally have never planned for an eye strike solution. The reason why is because most grappling efforts present opportunities to strike the eyes. They are just really nasty things that most people aren't going to have the stomach for. Accident is one thing, intentionally yeah, it can be brutal

This is why I say teach that allowing an opponent to place their lead hand in front without punishment is a sin. This good poked in the eye and it ended the fight. All of these are nasty. For me the lead arm is like a witch that needs to be burned. It doesn't matter if it's innocent or not. Unfortunately, many of my students couldn't understand the level of hate they should have for their opponent's lead arm lol.

View attachment 30928

Eye pokes are just "another level" thing. The real problem with it, is that. If I miss then I give my enemy the idea for poking me in the eye.

I’m 100% with you on punishing for a leading arm. For that exact reason. I’ve been eye poked and I don’t care to repeat the experience.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

REALLY thought this thread was about steak upon seeing the title... eye fillet, cooked blue, wagyu maybe... maybe I'm just hungry...

 

[Tigerwarrior]

Tiger claw used for redirecting looks like this.

The hand is supposed to be pulled back. He gets slack with it and doesn't do it, but you can him do with some of the redirect, this is like turning your hand into a type of hook which makes it easier to grab. It also helps to prevent fingers from getting jammed.

More examples

This is tiger claw for both hands. This is the range I would recomend it.
View attachment 30924

That way if he tries, to escape, This is the structure. Holding your hands in this position and arms in this position makes it really difficult to move your away. The top arm reinforces the pinning arm. This means that you dont' have to use effort with your pinning arm to keep him in position. If I want to prevent someone from pulling my pinning arm down then I would need to pull my pinning arm into my reinfocing arm and it will prevent downward movement on the arm. The pulling up motion becomes stronger if it is pulling against the pushing down energy of your reinforcing arm.
View attachment 30925

The extension of the tiger claw looks occurs here, when they try to escape. This is why you grip /snatch the face to prevent his escape.
View attachment 30926

If I didn't think I was going to reach his face (this will be predetermined based on how close I think I'm going to get when I do the technique.) I would use the tiger clawon my pinning arm to hook and pull his body towards me (to bring him closer) and across my body (to turn him so that he can't find the accurate resistance.). This would open up his ribs and organs for punching or for grabbing his organs. Similar to below.

View attachment 30927

Thanks man! This makes more sense now. I appreciate it.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

If I was going to add something to my skill set for self-defense. It wouldn't be eye pokes. If I was going to add Kung Fu to my skill set, then I would take a class and get some formal teaching. I wouldn't try to learn from random videos. If I couldn't communicate with the person teaching and if they can't explain realistic and correct application then I wouldn't choose video.

Kung Fu uses a lot of small things to make the techniques effective. Leave the small stuff out and it falls apart. Everything that is small is big. Everything that is big is small.

I did some distance learning. The hardest part was my forms. Every time I would send out a video there would always be 1 or 2 things that I messed up. And it's hard to correct that stuff virtually sometimes. But I'm grateful for my sifu pushing me and striving for excellence even though it was distance learning and most of our training was over video. Some things like you said need to be hands on learned. But I did learn a great deal and even though I didn't get all the forms down I learned alot about practical application and mindset and strategy. So it was a good experience and I'd do it again. I learned a little bit of kung fu but I'm still a novice. But what I did learn was excellent stuff. I'm gonna be looking for a teacher in my region from a similar style so I hope I find something where I can make trips in person to get corrected hands on.

 

[gyoja]

I did some distance learning. The hardest part was my forms. Every time I would send out a video there would always be 1 or 2 things that I messed up. And it's hard to correct that stuff virtually sometimes. But I'm grateful for my sifu pushing me and striving for excellence even though it was distance learning and most of our training was over video. Some things like you said need to be hands on learned. But I did learn a great deal and even though I didn't get all the forms down I learned alot about practical application and mindset and strategy. So it was a good experience and I'd do it again. I learned a little bit of kung fu but I'm still a novice. But what I did learn was excellent stuff. I'm gonna be looking for a teacher in my region from a similar style so I hope I find something where I can make trips in person to get corrected hands on.

Sometimes it’s the only option that you have at the time. One of the dangers of distance learning is that you may be doing a technique or sequence incorrectly and not know it, which becomes a bad habit over time.