Biu Sao/Biu Jee

[wayfaring]

It's a demo

Sure. Subject to all the problems of any other compliant partner demo. I've seen hundreds of them, the punch and 10 technique counter response. The problem with them is that in a realistic encounter the uke doesn't sit there and wait for the 10th technique to finish.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Apparently, MORE people need to read that thread posted by the moderators about how the disrespect on this particular forum has gotten out of hand.

GP Seymour is one of a handful of people on this site who consistently posts intelligent, open-minded comments. I will take someone who doesn't know the forms but replies intelligently over a troll who knows the entire system any day.

Many thanks, Steve. I can assume who that's in reply to - already on my "ignore" list.

 

[wingchun100]

I got your back, man.

 

[lansao]

The target area for the eye can be made a little larger. The entire eye socket and even the upper half of the cheek can be the target. You can "bridge" from the upper cheek up into the eye socket in an upward motion as you drive through the skull.

~ Alan

 

[PiedmontChun]

Sure. Subject to all the problems of any other compliant partner demo. I've seen hundreds of them, the punch and 10 technique counter response. The problem with them is that in a realistic encounter the uke doesn't sit there and wait for the 10th technique to finish.

You refer to this as a "compliant partner" demo as if that is a shortcoming. You DO realize the teacher on the left is not actually striking his student? It demonstrates whip like force and also incredible control. I've been hit by my sifu under very specific contexts and with restraint. If a Sifu were to attack like this, and not utilize restraint, that's not a demonstration that I would ever want to be a part of.

I'm sure the student in this demo video could have countered the attacks according to his ability, but in doing so he would be getting trapped and pulled further into the attacks being demo'd. That's how Biu Jee, and many WC attacks work. Its better to be 100% compliant as to not get hurt.

 

[wckf92]

Many are protective over disclosing this practice and method, ....

Agreed!

 

[Juany118]

You refer to this as a "compliant partner" demo as if that is a shortcoming. You DO realize the teacher on the left is not actually striking his student? It demonstrates whip like force and also incredible control. I've been hit by my sifu under very specific contexts and with restraint. If a Sifu were to attack like this, and not utilize restraint, that's not a demonstration that I would ever want to be a part of.

I'm sure the student in this demo video could have countered the attacks according to his ability, but in doing so he would be getting trapped and pulled further into the attacks being demo'd. That's how Biu Jee, and many WC attacks work. Its better to be 100% compliant as to not get hurt.

The same applies in Aikido. Now "compliance" often goes to far. I used to hate seeing a uke throwing sloppy halfhearted attacks. That said if you do not "go with the flow" once a throw had been initiated (or as some say "flop") you run a serious risk of injury such as dislocations, torn ligaments and tendons, etc. You need to practice proper ukemi in Aikido asyou do in Judo or it's going to result in a trip to the hospital.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The same applies in Aikido. Now "compliance" often goes to far. I used to hate seeing a uke throwing sloppy halfhearted attacks. That said if you do not "go with the flow" once a throw had been initiated (or as some say "flop") you run a serious risk of injury such as dislocations, torn ligaments and tendons, etc. You need to practice proper ukemi in Aikido asyou do in Judo or it's going to result in a trip to the hospital.

Agreed. The ukemi in some styles is about protecting the uke. It can necessarily be overly compliant in some cases, and that has to be accounted for by having other drills and exercises that reduce the compliance. As you pointed out, one of the biggest risks is crappy attacks, which I've been known to just stand and take, making them do the attack again.

 

[PiedmontChun]

The same applies in Aikido. Now "compliance" often goes to far. I used to hate seeing a uke throwing sloppy halfhearted attacks. That said if you do not "go with the flow" once a throw had been initiated (or as some say "flop") you run a serious risk of injury such as dislocations, torn ligaments and tendons, etc. You need to practice proper ukemi in Aikido asyou do in Judo or it's going to result in a trip to the hospital.

I see your point, but it is very much apples and oranges to make that comparison or use as a standard to hold WC to, or almost any striking art for that matter. A judoka can execute a throw on a resisting partner in randori, and provided the partner is decently skilled at ukemi, no one gets hurt. Strikes to the throat, palm strikes to the chin / jaw, and elbow strikes to the face at full speed like you see here would seriously hurt a partner. Resisting it makes it worse, better to be compliant and for the teacher to use restraint. Very different situation.

With any decent sifu or school, I would hope some of the attacks get explored in drills with some realism or where they can be used closer to 100%, even if that means using pads or other safeguards. But that is not what was being demo'd in that video.

 

[DanT]

I don't know how anyone else feels about this topic, but I guess I will find out.

While I have always thought Biu Sao was a useful technique (as far as blocking outside, looping, haymaker type of attacks), I have always thought Biu JEE as an attack was pretty useless. Why? Because there aren't too many areas on the body that are vulnerable enough to get hurt by your fingers, whereas it isn't all that hard to break your little digits.

Where are the areas that could truly be hurt by a finger jab? The eyes, the hollow of the throat...and that's about it. And your aim has to be INCREDIBLY on point to hit these targets accurately, especially during the chaotic nature of a fight.

Personally, the only time I would ever use a finger jab is if someone had me pinned against the wall, and I could sink that jab right into the hollow of their throat. However, I think there are some people out there who might think it is the kind of attack that could be used more frequently than that.

Your thoughts?

So my personal thoughts are that if you condition your hands well enough you can have many more targets available for striking. Examples include the torso as well which is a major target. My sifu studied under 3 wing chun teachers, and he said that none of them however conditioned for striking with the fingers. That being said, the biu sao is most often used as a block, not a strike, the extended and tensed fingers serve to further contract the muscles on the outside of the forearm allowing it to be used better as a block.

 

[wingchun100]

So my personal thoughts are that if you condition your hands well enough you can have many more targets available for striking. Examples include the torso as well which is a major target. My sifu studied under 3 wing chun teachers, and he said that none of them however conditioned for striking with the fingers. That being said, the biu sao is most often used as a block, not a strike, the extended and tensed fingers serve to further contract the muscles on the outside of the forearm allowing it to be used better as a block.

That's what my thread was all about: biu SAO is a good block. Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion. There is only so much conditioning that can be done for the fingers. At the end of the day, they are still far too easy to break or sprain for me to try doing a finger jab to the eyes. Think about it: the vulnerable areas on the body are mostly very small targets. Example: the eyes. The ability to hit a small target when under stress (example: being attacked) are severely diminished. Therefore, in my opinion biu jee is one of the most useless attacks in the Wing Chun arsenal.

 

[Callen]

That's what my thread was all about: biu SAO is a good block. Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion.

But what if Biu Jee was about more than just what to do with the fingers? Biu Jee also teaches to strike from a blind spot, from below a folded elbow.

 

[wckf92]

Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion. At the end of the day, they are still far too easy to break or sprain for me to try doing a finger jab to the eyes. Think about it: the vulnerable areas on the body are mostly very small targets. Example: the eyes. The ability to hit a small target when under stress (example: being attacked) are severely diminished. Therefore, in my opinion biu jee is one of the most useless attacks in the Wing Chun arsenal.

I disagree but whatever.
I've done it. Wasn't difficult at all

 

[wingchun100]

I disagree but whatever.
I've done it. Wasn't difficult at all

I didn't post it to change anyone's mind. It was to ask what people thought, and to inspire discussion, sharing different takes on it.

 

[wckf92]

I didn't post it to change anyone's mind. It was to ask what people thought, and to inspire discussion, sharing different takes on it.

Understood. Thx Steve. No worries

 

[lansao]

I didn't post it to change anyone's mind. It was to ask what people thought, and to inspire discussion, sharing different takes on it.

I think it's worth keeping an open mind on it's usefulness as a strike especially when teaching. You never know when you or one of your students may pickup helpful tips from other teachers/students that help with implementation.

Generally tend to feel that way about most "xyz is useless" statements as they tend to limit the development of the art more often than prune/grow it.

Totally get that you're not looking to persuade with that statement but also appreciate its ability to persuade regardless of intent.

 

[Danny T]

But what if Biu Jee was about more than just what to do with the fingers? Biu Jee also teaches to strike from a blind spot, from below a folded elbow.

Fold the elbow with the opposite hand in a fist under the elbow. Have someone pressure your elbow toward your core. Punch with the fisted arm. Do the same with the fist open as in BJ. Thrust the arm forward. Which is easier?
Can BJ be a finger thrust to the eyes, throat, or other targets? Certainly, ...your mileage may vary.

 

[geezer]

That's what my thread was all about: biu SAO is a good block. Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion.

Byiu Tze is very effective as both a deflection and attack in a single move (da sau juk si siu sau) if you stop thinking about it as a rigid finger-tip jab. Flexible fingers, whipping force is the key. then you can hit with the side of the wrist, the side of the hand, or whipping with the fingertips depending on range. If you can draw force through to the fingertips like snapping a wet towel, the effect is quite impressive. And you don't risk jamming your fingers.

if you've ever been even lightly "snapped" with this kind of biu tze sau to the throat or the side of the neck --even through a padded neck-brace- you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. My old Chinese sifu could generate and control remarkable power that way. So could some others I've worked with. Emin Boztepe. Also the guy in that demo, Jeff Webb.

My advice is keep an open mind on Biu Tze untill you get a chance to see how those guys use it. Although I'm not in that league, I'm Ok at it myself when my arthritis isn't acting up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it's worth keeping an open mind on it's usefulness as a strike especially when teaching. You never know when you or one of your students may pickup helpful tips from other teachers/students that help with implementation.

Generally tend to feel that way about most "xyz is useless" statements as they tend to limit the development of the art more often than prune/grow it.

Totally get that you're not looking to persuade with that statement but also appreciate its ability to persuade regardless of intent.

Agreed. There are some forms in NGA that aren't terribly useful for direct application, but which are useful for teaching specific principles and for forcing students to practice particularly difficult balance and weight transitions. I do my best not to refer to them as "useless". I either refer to them as "esoteric" or just "less useful", so students will continue to look for application to the principles in them, rather than dismissing the form.

 

[Juany118]

The target area for the eye can be made a little larger. The entire eye socket and even the upper half of the cheek can be the target. You can "bridge" from the upper cheek up into the eye socket in an upward motion as you drive through the skull.

~ Alan

This is similar to how we look at it at my school, with a punch or palm strike. We technically aim to hit just under the cheek bone, under the eye. If you overshoot though, it's all good you hit the eye itself, to much to the other side the nose, opposite the tmj, etc.