Examples from the real world involving KMA's

[Kong Soo Do]

I appreciate all the discussion this thread has generated. Thank you.

I'd like to have others post their examples as well. I feel we can all learn from these examples.

 

[ATACX GYM]

No. Not differing perspectives. You are applying a definition that is inapplicable.


This is common defense and maintaining peace, not self defense. That is the function that the military and law enforcement perform.


What you are talking about is not self defense. You are talking about arrest and incarceration of a felon. If the serial killer/robber/rapist/guy that jumped bail/internationally wanted terrorist or neighborhood bully attack the officer in question in the process, then the officer is also defending him or herself at the time. But the act of going after the serial killer is not self defense.

Nor is the apprehension of internationally wanted terrorists by coordinated military action.

Self defense, by definition, is defense of one's self. Legally, this extends to include defense of property or of another person. Another term for self defense is private defense. By its nature, self defense is personal in nature. I defend myself, my family or my property. If I come to the direct aid of another person, I am now in harm's way and am really defending myself at that point.


My definition is not the issue, as it is not my definition.

The reason that we differ has nothing to do with civilian vs. military/LEO. Honor and martial arts techniques have nothing to do with it either. If I decide to go to a crack house and start kicking the crap out of the crack dealer and he fights back without having had any training, he's still acting in self defense.

The reason that we differ is because you have made up your own definition.

The actual definition is not mine and is as follows:



If you disagree, take it up with these folks: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self%20defense


There is nothing to debate. Your definition is simply incorrect. Romantic perhaps, but incorrect. There are other terms for the things that you describe.

And comparing Mark Lopez' taekwondo skills to the specialized skills of anti terrorism units makes no sense.

If you feel that it does, then fine. I have no personal investment in how you choose to re-purpose terms with established meanings for your own use.

My point was simply that your analogy is inapplicable. Mark Lopez doesn't go "smashing terrorists" for the same reason that firemen don't chase down suspects in a homicide: they are neither qualified nor have the tools needed to do so.

Daniel

This is an excellent post,Daniel,but you've just elaborately proven my point.You indicated that the definition that I used is inapplicable.That's not the case.I just didn't apply ONLY the definition that you have.I applied ALL of the primary definitions related to the phrase "self-defense" and merely navigated the areas that they all have in common with my response.

Observe: the legal definition for "self-defense" is:

Self-Defense

(n) Self defense is the action by which a person protects himself from any bodily harm arising out of an encounters or attacks from other person either by protecting him or by blocking the opponents advancement by a counter attack. Self defense is not a crime so accused may be tempted to show their action as self defense to escape punishment


self–de·fense (merriam)

noun \ˌself-di-ˈfen(t)s\
Definition of SELF-DEFENSE

1
: a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide

2
: the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative

Dictionary


Search Results

1. self-de·fense noun 
   
   1. The defense of one's person or interests, esp. through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime
      • - he claimed self-defense in the attempted murder charge
      • Web definitions
        
        • the act of defending yourself
        wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
        
        • Self-defence (or self-defense; see spelling differences) is a countermeasure that involves defending oneself, one's property or the well-being of another from physical harm. ...
        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense
        
        • The right of self-defense (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in violence for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others ...
        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(theory)
        
        - self-defense classes
      • the means of defending oneself from physical attack; the right to protect oneself against violence by using reasonable force, especially when used as justification in a murder charge
      en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-defense
      
      
      • Protection of oneself from an unprovoked attack, which cannot be avoided. (410.01)
      www.doc.state.vt.us/about/policies/glossary_s
      
      
      • (as defined by outside observers, not by the universal claim of all persecutors, including the Nazis, that this was all they were doing).
      www.questia.com/PM.qst
      
      
      • the protection of oneself or one's property from unlawful injury or the immediate risk of unlawful injury; the justification for an act which would otherwise constitute an offense on the ground that the person who committed it reasonably believed that the act was necessary to protect self or ...
      securitybeyondborders.org/global-security-glossary/global-secur
      1. (Military) of or relating to the armed forces (esp the army), warlike matters, etc.
      
      
      And the purpose of me comparing Mark Lopez to the special forces/military/law enforcement forces was specifically to point out that Mr.Lopez would likely be in jeapordy of life and limb despite the fact that he's an Olympian of elite skill.Mr.Lopez is not trained for the rigors that are the purview of the aforementioned professionals,and the converse is also true,despite the fact that Mr.Lopez is likely superior athletically to most if not all of the aforementioned professionals and despite the fact that Mr.Lopez's strikes would speedily defeat all of his opposition should they engage in empty hand combat.
      
      

Very simply put,the purpose of law enforcement is to protect their communities,cities,counties,states,and our nation from the predations of criminals and the daily oftentimes minor transgressions of our regular citizenry.It's literally both law enforcement AND protection...defense...of a group of citizens who've specifically entrusted law enforcement with that mandate.It IS defense...and on the individual level police,citizen or military...it becomes self-defense when you're in the midst of the lawful commission of whatever activity that you're involved in.

If you smacked around the crack dealer and the crack dealer defended himself,YEP...he's engaging in self-defense.You're breaking the law visavis vigilantism,even though you'd probably be right in perceiving that the community would be better off without the criminals in it.And you could call the police who--in the midst of executing their lawful duty--are defending the community/city/county/etc. that we live in.

Now,that THAT'S out of the way,let me reemphasize what I ACTUALLY said in its ENTIRETY so the proper context may be observed,instead of merely the portion of what I said that you concentrated on:

I believe I addressed this area already...and yes I agree that the median wavelength for sport situations visavis fitness technical skill etc. is higher visavis civilian SD because athletes tend to be in better shape overall.They're generally stronger,faster, possess grater quickness,flexibility,agility,greater endurance,etc. than the average person.But the more severe SD scenarios require superior skill sets that are not addressed for the most part by sport combatives,and this reality is what tends to make the SD specialist superior overall than the sports combatant. We don't tell say Mark Lopez to go smash those terrorists,despite the fact that he'd kick the holy crap out of them (literally) if he caught them at range with his patented kicking combos. We send guys like Navy SEAL TEAM 6 or DELTA FORCE.Their training is superior,their athleticism is superior,their weaponry and tactics are superior visavis SD. If Mark Lopez tried to apply his skills and somebody broke out a knife,he got tackled,he was in the midst of a multifight,etc. etc.? He'd be out of his element. Not so the SD martial mindset and martial artist.

Now we can see that your response,Daniel,focused on perhaps 1/3 of my entire post above.When reintegrated into the entirety of my post,it should be clear that my point was something beond what Daniel mistook it for...and we can return more accurately to the main point of the OP.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is an excellent post,Daniel,but you've just elaborately proven my point.You indicated that the definition that I used is inapplicable.That's not the case.I just didn't apply ONLY the definition that you have.I applied ALL of the primary definitions related to the phrase "self-defense" and merely navigated the areas that they all have in common with my response.

Observe: the legal definition for "self-defense" is:

Self-Defense

(n) Self defense is the action by which a person protects himself from any bodily harm arising out of an encounters or attacks from other person either by protecting him or by blocking the opponents advancement by a counter attack. Self defense is not a crime so accused may be tempted to show their action as self defense to escape punishment


self–de·fense (merriam)

noun \ˌself-di-ˈfen(t)s\
Definition of SELF-DEFENSE

1
: a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide

2
: the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative

Dictionary


Search Results

1. self-de·fense noun 
   
   1. The defense of one's person or interests, esp. through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime
      • - he claimed self-defense in the attempted murder charge
      • Web definitions
        
        • the act of defending yourself
        wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
        
        • Self-defence (or self-defense; see spelling differences) is a countermeasure that involves defending oneself, one's property or the well-being of another from physical harm. ...
        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense
        
        • The right of self-defense (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in violence for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others ...
        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(theory)
        
        - self-defense classes
      • the means of defending oneself from physical attack; the right to protect oneself against violence by using reasonable force, especially when used as justification in a murder charge
      en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-defense
      
      
      • Protection of oneself from an unprovoked attack, which cannot be avoided. (410.01)
      www.doc.state.vt.us/about/policies/glossary_s
      
      
      • (as defined by outside observers, not by the universal claim of all persecutors, including the Nazis, that this was all they were doing).
      www.questia.com/PM.qst
      
      
      • the protection of oneself or one's property from unlawful injury or the immediate risk of unlawful injury; the justification for an act which would otherwise constitute an offense on the ground that the person who committed it reasonably believed that the act was necessary to protect self or ...
      securitybeyondborders.org/global-security-glossary/global-secur
      1. (Military) of or relating to the armed forces (esp the army), warlike matters, etc.
      
      
      And the purpose of me comparing Mark Lopez to the special forces/military/law enforcement forces was specifically to point out that Mr.Lopez would likely be in jeapordy of life and limb despite the fact that he's an Olympian of elite skill.Mr.Lopez is not trained for the rigors that are the purview of the aforementioned professionals,and the converse is also true,despite the fact that Mr.Lopez is likely superior athletically to most if not all of the aforementioned professionals and despite the fact that Mr.Lopez's strikes would speedily defeat all of his opposition should they engage in empty hand combat.
      
      

Very simply put,the purpose of law enforcement is to protect their communities,cities,counties,states,and our nation from the predations of criminals and the daily oftentimes minor transgressions of our regular citizenry.It's literally both law enforcement AND protection...defense...of a group of citizens who've specifically entrusted law enforcement with that mandate.It IS defense...and on the individual level police,citizen or military...it becomes self-defense when you're in the midst of the lawful commission of whatever activity that you're involved in.

If you smacked around the crack dealer and the crack dealer defended himself,YEP...he's engaging in self-defense.You're breaking the law visavis vigilantism,even though you'd probably be right in perceiving that the community would be better off without the criminals in it.And you could call the police who--in the midst of executing their lawful duty--are defending the community/city/county/etc. that we live in.

Now,that THAT'S out of the way,let me reemphasize what I ACTUALLY said in its ENTIRETY so the proper context may be observed,instead of merely the portion of what I said that you concentrated on:




Now we can see that your response,Daniel,focused on perhaps 1/3 of my entire post above.When reintegrated into the entirety of my post,it should be clear that my point was something beond what Daniel mistook it for...and we can return more accurately to the main point of the OP.

I didn't mistake your point for anything else. Your analogy regarding Mark Lopez and the military is not a good analogy. You are reading things into the definition of self defense that you wish to see.

That is okay; certainly hurts nobody. But I agree: back to the OP.

Daniel

 

[Doomx2001]

What a debate! I had to go back a few posts just to see what you all were talking about.
I actually agree with both Mr. Sullivian and ATACX GYM .

The whole debate right now is over the defintion of self-defense and how it actually relates to Mark Lopez and Navy Seals.

Well this is my take: Self-Defense means just that, self defense. Defense of one's self, property or of sometimes of some else (which sorta isn't self defense no more, it's debatable, lets put it that way )

There are obviously situations where everyday citizens must defend themselves. There are situations where police must defend themselves due a sudden unexpected situation that happens out of the blue when dealing with crackheads.

But, police are trained more in the field of command presence, talking down an aggressor, and arresting tactics (which are aggressive in nature as you are pursuing someone, and not neccessarily defending yourself). But having said that, police do have to defend themselves as citizens do from time to time.

On the Navy Seals, Sullivian is right. Navy Seals are trained to do one thing really well that makes them the best at what they do: Search and Destroy. Killing. Hunting other men, finding them, and killing them in a way that makes Chuck Norris smile. Thats what Navy Seals do. They spend more time hunting trouble, than trouble finding them. I'm sure there are scenarious where self-defense is applicatable, but in this instance I don't think so.

I agree with ATACX GYM also. Mark Lopez would probably be out of his element fight terrorist or on the battlefield.

But really, I do think there is an element of spliting hairs here like oftheherd1 said while ago. Its all good natured debate though. Keep it coming, and then lets back on topic.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I didn't mistake your point for anything else. Your analogy regarding Mark Lopez and the military is not a good analogy. You are reading things into the definition of self defense that you wish to see.

That is okay; certainly hurts nobody. But I agree: back to the OP.

Daniel

Okay,the areas that we agree at imho trump the areas where we disagree.Back to the OP.

Today I was coming back home and saw about a half dozen late teen-very early twentysomethings engaging in what we in the hood call "slap boxing"...with about a dozen pretty girls as onlookers and a sprinkling of middle aged men with cans of beer in hand looking on. One rather large brutha--about 6'5",250-260--was asserting his dominance over another slightly shorter and smaller brutha--about 6'3",230--by doing what amounted to a less skillful impression of Kimbo Slice back in his backyard streetfighting days. As I bypassed these worthies--and received greetings from the girls and older men--one of the young bulls NOT slap boxing at the time called out:

"Betcha can't **** with karate cuz!" This assertion was met with a chorus of good-natured laughter from all,including me,as I slightly quickened my pace to the security gate that regulated entry to my apartment complex."What?" Kimbo Slice 0.5 half-seriously challenged."I whoop Bruce Leroy's ***!" And he came toward me,fists up in a boxer's crouch,shoulders hunched slightly. But I was definitely going to beat him into the apartment complex,as I was closer to the gate by a good dozen yards and I already had my key in hand...

...a few young teens already inside my apartment complex read the situation and playfully leaped to the security gate to hold it shut so I couldn't enter...thus ensuring that I would be there when Kimbo Slice 0.5 got to me.

"Come own,Bruce Leroy," Kimbo Slice 0.5 said to me from a distance of about a dozen paces."Lessee whatcha got." This challenge caught the attention of everybody within a 100 meters...about 40-50 witnesses entering and exiting their cars,as well as the denizens of my apartment complex within earshot.

"Naaahhh man..." I tried to aver. Boo's and sounds of disappointment from the crowd.

One of the older gentlemen looked at his peers and said:"I'd leave that young man [gestured at me with his beer can] alone,if I was him [gestured at Kimbo Slice 0.5]."

"Come owwnnn man! Just a lil street fun." Kimbo 0.5 encouraged.Then he broke out with an AMAZINGLY ACCURATE imitation of Sho'Nuff from the iconic martial arts movie lampoon of the 80's called THE LAST DRAGON,mishmashing Sho'Nuff's more famous lines into a single delivery."See! It's skinny little lizards like YOU...who think they da LAASST DRAGON...that gives kung-fu a bad name! You catchin bullets...with his teeth? ***** PLEASE!! I got somethin REEEALL for you in THESE hands! *****...KISS MY CONVERS!"

I turned to face him,and he flicked a playful jab at me.I didn't move because the jab was short of its mark.The crowd oooo'd and that egged him on,so the next jab and cross came to make contact,but he was still feeling me out.I slipped both shots without raising my hands."OH! That ***** didn't even raise his hands!" somebody commented."Yeah!" some other heckler jumped in."He didn't move like:'*****,please! I'm a ninja master!'" The crowd inside and outside of the apartment complex laughed,and now Kimbo Slice 0.5's rep was on the line.

"Man look,I have other things to do--" I tried to aver. "BOOO!" went the crowd,drowning me out.I looked to see how close the next gate was to me,but Kimbo Slice 0.5 was between me and the next gate allowing me entrance into the apartment complex,and there were other teens there crowding about to get a look at the excitement. I briefly considered explosively scaling the 12 foot gate at my back that the kids were holding shut but both Kimbo and the teens would have time to react prior to me touching the ground on the other side of the gate.

The roof,however,was merely 6 feet or so from the top of the gate.Hmmm.As I considered the distance from gate top to rooftop with my peripheral vision,3 things happened simultaneously:

1) The Old Man said:"Big man done bit off more than he can chew."

2) My oldest daughter--I call her SUPER STAR--descended the stairs from our apartment,and using my peripheral vision I saw her start at seeing me in this "predicament".

3) Kimbo Slice 0.5 came at me more seriously this time,1-2,1-2,attempted tackle.

I slipped each attack and did a dive roll (cell phone,wallet,keys,shoulder bag and all) UNDER his sloppy semi-Greco Roman+football tackle waist clinch attempt.The visual effect was that I arrowed under his arms in the exact opposite direction that he was going,and he kept charging forward punching and grabbing air as he'd gathered too much momentum to halt his movement.He slowed and used his palms to stop himself from slamming into the opposite wall--not even ten paces across from where I now stood having smoothly come up from my shoulder roll.

"OOOOOOOOOHHHHHH!" "DAAAAAYAAAAMN!" "THAT **** WAS TIIITE!"thrilled the crowd.

He turned to face me--a bit more wary but definitely more determined to put in work on me now--and I met him with a clash and a flurry of kicks in the center of the small walkway. I entered with a feint lead left leg side kick--which brought his hands down--that I took advantage of with my variant of Kenpo's Alternating Maces (top speed but a quarter power shots,so they had brisk impact but weren't truly painful or debilitating) which I followed with the jumping right whipping heel hook to his cheek-midair turn-airborne back kick to his belly.

Looked like the first part of this video with the feint:

flowing smoothly into:

morphing into the jumping variant of this:

and finally this kick while still midair:

The superfast left back kick to the body landed flush.The lightning fast jump right whip heel hook kick which I snapped at him I halted with zero impact upon his cheek,I retracted before his startled hands could grasp my leg,torquing midair into my left body kick (purposefully fired into his belly with about a quarter power just as he raised both hands to his left cheek) which drove him stumbling backwards.

"OOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" gasped the crowd.

As the crowd was momentarily agog from my TKD and KENPO display,I flashed to the gate and scaled it rapidly.The teens in question braced the gate--misreading my intention--and kinda shook it in an attempt to dislodge me on the other side so that I'd be forced to conclude the "contest" with Kimbo Slice 0.5,but instead of dropping onto their side of the gate,I sprang directly to the rooftop some six feet away.

"OOOOOO!!! THAT ***** ON SOME FREERUNNING NINJA ****!" said the crowd.

I scampered across the roof and dropped swiftly to the second story walkway ringing the apartments.A hop,skip,a "hi sweetie Daddy loves you" to my oldest daughter,and a jump? And I'm inside the apartment telling you guys what happened. Thee end.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What a debate! I had to go back a few posts just to see what you all were talking about.
I actually agree with both Mr. Sullivian and ATACX GYM .

The whole debate right now is over the defintion of self-defense and how it actually relates to Mark Lopez and Navy Seals.

Well this is my take: Self-Defense means just that, self defense. Defense of one's self, property or of sometimes of some else (which sorta isn't self defense no more, it's debatable, lets put it that way )

There are obviously situations where everyday citizens must defend themselves. There are situations where police must defend themselves due a sudden unexpected situation that happens out of the blue when dealing with crackheads.

But, police are trained more in the field of command presence, talking down an aggressor, and arresting tactics (which are aggressive in nature as you are pursuing someone, and not neccessarily defending yourself). But having said that, police do have to defend themselves as citizens do from time to time.

On the Navy Seals, Sullivian is right. Navy Seals are trained to do one thing really well that makes them the best at what they do: Search and Destroy. Killing. Hunting other men, finding them, and killing them in a way that makes Chuck Norris smile. Thats what Navy Seals do. They spend more time hunting trouble, than trouble finding them. I'm sure there are scenarious where self-defense is applicatable, but in this instance I don't think so.

Pretty much what I was saying.

I agree with ATACX GYM also. Mark Lopez would probably be out of his element fight terrorist or on the battlefield.

On that, all three of us, and likely everyone reading this thread, agree. In fact, that was never disputed.

And a Navy Seal would be out of his element fighting taekwondo olympians under WTF rules. Each is trained in a different area of expertise.

And both do what they do in a setting that the vast majority of civilians/non competitors will never set foot in.

But really, I do think there is an element of spliting hairs here like oftheherd1 said while ago. Its all good natured debate though. Keep it coming, and then lets back on topic.

While I don't consider it splitting hairs, yes, it is friendly and light hearted. Meaning no disrespect to Atacx, I am fairly exacting regarding definitions of words, as well as accepted usage of terms. I get what he is driving at; I simply felt that a different analogy would have illustrated it better.

Daniel

 

[ATACX GYM]

Pretty much what I was saying.


On that, all three of us, and likely everyone reading this thread, agree. In fact, that was never disputed.

And a Navy Seal would be out of his element fighting taekwondo olympians under WTF rules. Each is trained in a different area of expertise.

And both do what they do in a setting that the vast majority of civilians/non competitors will never set foot in.


While I don't consider it splitting hairs, yes, it is friendly and light hearted. Meaning no disrespect to Atacx, I am fairly exacting regarding definitions of words, as well as accepted usage of terms. I get what he is driving at; I simply felt that a different analogy would have illustrated it better.

Daniel

No offense taken.Now do you have any "examples from the real world involving KMA's" to share with us,Daniel,or did I miss them/forget them if you posted them already?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I had posted it back on page 2, but it was so brief compared to many of the other posts that it was easy to miss:

Once had a man attempt to mug me. He brandished a knife and demanded my wallet. I delivered a low side kick to his knee. He went down and I quickly went on my way.

Aside from that and one or two scuffles, I have made use of tongue-fu to handle things. Works a lot better and it doesn't burden our law enforcement with needless paperwork.

Daniel

 

[jda]

I had posted it back on page 2, but it was so brief compared to many of the other posts that it was easy to miss:

Tongue-Fu. I love it!
Jim

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Okay,the areas that we agree at imho trump the areas where we disagree.Back to the OP.

Today I was coming back home and saw about a half dozen late teen-very early twentysomethings engaging in what we in the hood call "slap boxing"...with about a dozen pretty girls as onlookers and a sprinkling of middle aged men with cans of beer in hand looking on. One rather large brutha--about 6'5",250-260--was asserting his dominance over another slightly shorter and smaller brutha--about 6'3",230--by doing what amounted to a less skillful impression of Kimbo Slice back in his backyard streetfighting days. As I bypassed these worthies--and received greetings from the girls and older men--one of the young bulls NOT slap boxing at the time called out:

"Betcha can't **** with karate cuz!" This assertion was met with a chorus of good-natured laughter from all,including me,as I slightly quickened my pace to the security gate that regulated entry to my apartment complex."What?" Kimbo Slice 0.5 half-seriously challenged."I whoop Bruce Leroy's ***!" And he came toward me,fists up in a boxer's crouch,shoulders hunched slightly. But I was definitely going to beat him into the apartment complex,as I was closer to the gate by a good dozen yards and I already had my key in hand...

...a few young teens already inside my apartment complex read the situation and playfully leaped to the security gate to hold it shut so I couldn't enter...thus ensuring that I would be there when Kimbo Slice 0.5 got to me.

"Come own,Bruce Leroy," Kimbo Slice 0.5 said to me from a distance of about a dozen paces."Lessee whatcha got." This challenge caught the attention of everybody within a 100 meters...about 40-50 witnesses entering and exiting their cars,as well as the denizens of my apartment complex within earshot.

"Naaahhh man..." I tried to aver. Boo's and sounds of disappointment from the crowd.

One of the older gentlemen looked at his peers and said:"I'd leave that young man [gestured at me with his beer can] alone,if I was him [gestured at Kimbo Slice 0.5]."

"Come owwnnn man! Just a lil street fun." Kimbo 0.5 encouraged.Then he broke out with an AMAZINGLY ACCURATE imitation of Sho'Nuff from the iconic martial arts movie lampoon of the 80's called THE LAST DRAGON,mishmashing Sho'Nuff's more famous lines into a single delivery."See! It's skinny little lizards like YOU...who think they da LAASST DRAGON...that gives kung-fu a bad name! You catchin bullets...with his teeth? ***** PLEASE!! I got somethin REEEALL for you in THESE hands! *****...KISS MY CONVERS!"

I turned to face him,and he flicked a playful jab at me.I didn't move because the jab was short of its mark.The crowd oooo'd and that egged him on,so the next jab and cross came to make contact,but he was still feeling me out.I slipped both shots without raising my hands."OH! That ***** didn't even raise his hands!" somebody commented."Yeah!" some other heckler jumped in."He didn't move like:'*****,please! I'm a ninja master!'" The crowd inside and outside of the apartment complex laughed,and now Kimbo Slice 0.5's rep was on the line.

"Man look,I have other things to do--" I tried to aver. "BOOO!" went the crowd,drowning me out.I looked to see how close the next gate was to me,but Kimbo Slice 0.5 was between me and the next gate allowing me entrance into the apartment complex,and there were other teens there crowding about to get a look at the excitement. I briefly considered explosively scaling the 12 foot gate at my back that the kids were holding shut but both Kimbo and the teens would have time to react prior to me touching the ground on the other side of the gate.

The roof,however,was merely 6 feet or so from the top of the gate.Hmmm.As I considered the distance from gate top to rooftop with my peripheral vision,3 things happened simultaneously:

1) The Old Man said:"Big man done bit off more than he can chew."

2) My oldest daughter--I call her SUPER STAR--descended the stairs from our apartment,and using my peripheral vision I saw her start at seeing me in this "predicament".

3) Kimbo Slice 0.5 came at me more seriously this time,1-2,1-2,attempted tackle.

I slipped each attack and did a dive roll (cell phone,wallet,keys,shoulder bag and all) UNDER his sloppy semi-Greco Roman+football tackle waist clinch attempt.The visual effect was that I arrowed under his arms in the exact opposite direction that he was going,and he kept charging forward punching and grabbing air as he'd gathered too much momentum to halt his movement.He slowed and used his palms to stop himself from slamming into the opposite wall--not even ten paces across from where I now stood having smoothly come up from my shoulder roll.

"OOOOOOOOOHHHHHH!" "DAAAAAYAAAAMN!" "THAT **** WAS TIIITE!"thrilled the crowd.

He turned to face me--a bit more wary but definitely more determined to put in work on me now--and I met him with a clash and a flurry of kicks in the center of the small walkway. I entered with a feint lead left leg side kick--which brought his hands down--that I took advantage of with my variant of Kenpo's Alternating Maces (top speed but a quarter power shots,so they had brisk impact but weren't truly painful or debilitating) which I followed with the jumping right whipping heel hook to his cheek-midair turn-airborne back kick to his belly.

Looked like the first part of this video with the feint:

flowing smoothly into:

morphing into the jumping variant of this:

and finally this kick while still midair:

The superfast left back kick to the body landed flush.The lightning fast jump right whip heel hook kick which I snapped at him I halted with zero impact upon his cheek,I retracted before his startled hands could grasp my leg,torquing midair into my left body kick (purposefully fired into his belly with about a quarter power just as he raised both hands to his left cheek) which drove him stumbling backwards.

"OOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" gasped the crowd.

As the crowd was momentarily agog from my TKD and KENPO display,I flashed to the gate and scaled it rapidly.The teens in question braced the gate--misreading my intention--and kinda shook it in an attempt to dislodge me on the other side so that I'd be forced to conclude the "contest" with Kimbo Slice 0.5,but instead of dropping onto their side of the gate,I sprang directly to the rooftop some six feet away.

"OOOOOO!!! THAT ***** ON SOME FREERUNNING NINJA ****!" said the crowd.

I scampered across the roof and dropped swiftly to the second story walkway ringing the apartments.A hop,skip,a "hi sweetie Daddy loves you" to my oldest daughter,and a jump? And I'm inside the apartment telling you guys what happened. Thee end.

This incident has some very good points for consideration;

This assertion was met with a chorus of good-natured laughter from all,including me,as I slightly quickened my pace to the security gate that regulated entry to my apartment complex."

Some very excellent take-home points from this situation, and thank you ATACX GYM for providing it;

• You tried to keep the situation from becoming something more serious by joking with the crowd rather than letting the ego take over.
• You tried to exit the situation rather than face it.
• You scanned the area for exits.
• You didn't over-react to the situation and continued with an escape plan.
• When the moment was right, you made an exit rather than sticking around where things could have really taken a bad turn.

Thank you again for sharing.

 

[puunui]

Oh, and I left out another reason why GM Ji says that we should not hurt or permanently injure our attackers if possible, because in Korea, there is no concept of justification. What I mean by that is that in Korea, it doesn't matter who starts the fight, if someone is injured, then the person causing the injury is responsible legally for compensation for the injury.

Just adding another cultural gap consideration, which I bet no one thought about, when responding to what I said GM Ji told me.

 

[oftheherd1]

I guess I need to check up more closely on that one. I don't know that to be true. Certainly if the injured party can convince the law they are not at fault, hospitalization and loss of work is expected to be compesated for. And in an arguement, the first one to throw a punch will usually be considered at fault. You would sometimes see argueing people, and one would get very close up in the face of the other, knowing that if the frustration got too much and they were hit, the one hitting would be at fault with the law, regardless of who was deemed to have started the arguement. But to say the one hospitalized gets compensation regardless isn't true to my knowledge.

It is sometimes a thing seen in statements, where a victim will give the amount of hospitalization expected or work lost as a means of justification for expected compensation. I seem to remember seeing that in Vietnam more than in Korea. But again, that was more just that, trying to establish compensation if they were (hopefully)seen as the victim.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?

 

[ATACX GYM]

Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?

I think that being versed in the laws of the host country is pretty important...but there can be a labyrinth of laws to navigate,depending upon the country,and cultural issues to bridge too...

 

[oftheherd1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kong Soo Do
Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?


I think that being versed in the laws of the host country is pretty important...but there can be a labyrinth of laws to navigate,depending upon the country,and cultural issues to bridge too...
______________________________________________________________________________

While true each country gets to make and enforce its own laws, and when in that country it is good to know those laws, I guess I misunderstood Puunui's meanings to begin with. I thought he was talking about MA morality, not unrelated legal aspects.

And I still need to try and run that down about Korean law when I get the opportunity. As I stated, I don't think there is automatic compensation. Under such a system, what happens if both parties hurt each other? Certainly a plausible outcome of a fight.

 

[puunui]

Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?

My point is that you did not even think to consider his reasons for saying what he said, from his perspective. It is a very common point of view, from the American perspective.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

My point is that you did not even think to consider his reasons for saying what he said, from his perspective. It is a very common point of view, from the American perspective.

Actually, I did consider it. I simply don't agree with it.

 

[puunui]

Actually, I did consider it. I simply don't agree with it.

In my opinion, you did more than just disagree with him. But I am sure you have your reasons.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kong Soo Do
Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?


I think that being versed in the laws of the host country is pretty important...but there can be a labyrinth of laws to navigate,depending upon the country,and cultural issues to bridge too...
______________________________________________________________________________

While true each country gets to make and enforce its own laws, and when in that country it is good to know those laws, I guess I misunderstood Puunui's meanings to begin with. I thought he was talking about MA morality, not unrelated legal aspects.

And I still need to try and run that down about Korean law when I get the opportunity. As I stated, I don't think there is automatic compensation. Under such a system, what happens if both parties hurt each other? Certainly a plausible outcome of a fight.

Many times a country is labeled for a particular belief. Sometimes that belief is valid, sometimes it is outdated and occasionally it is entirely incorrect. For example, it was often said that in Turkey (and other Muslim countries) that if you hit a goat or cow or other farm animal you would have to pay for the animal itself, all the milk it would have produced and all the offspring it would have had for a certain amount of generations. For Turkey at least, this is incorrect and outdated information. More inline with the flow of the discussion, an instructor doesn't need to be an attorney, but they should have at least a working knowledge of the defensive laws of the country in which they teach. If they don't then they can't pass this information on to students. Although a martial art may be taken for sport, social interaction, a hobby or anything other than self-defense, the bottom line is that it is (at least as a label) a martial art. If one should need to use it as a defensive tool then a working understanding of the law will go a long way to hopefully keep one out of trouble. One needs to be able to intelligently articulate what they did and why they did it.

 

[oftheherd1]

Many times a country is labeled for a particular belief. Sometimes that belief is valid, sometimes it is outdated and occasionally it is entirely incorrect. For example, it was often said that in Turkey (and other Muslim countries) that if you hit a goat or cow or other farm animal you would have to pay for the animal itself, all the milk it would have produced and all the offspring it would have had for a certain amount of generations. For Turkey at least, this is incorrect and outdated information. More inline with the flow of the discussion, an instructor doesn't need to be an attorney, but they should have at least a working knowledge of the defensive laws of the country in which they teach. If they don't then they can't pass this information on to students. Although a martial art may be taken for sport, social interaction, a hobby or anything other than self-defense, the bottom line is that it is (at least as a label) a martial art. If one should need to use it as a defensive tool then a working understanding of the law will go a long way to hopefully keep one out of trouble. One needs to be able to intelligently articulate what they did and why they did it.

That brings up the interesting question as to whether or not a person is responsible in any country for the consequences of teaching a martial art. That is, if you teach a martial art, and a student uses it, provoked or unprovoked, is the teacher then responsible? Especially if it is used in a manner considered illegal in that country. I doubt that is so, but I couldn't be sure some country or culture would not hold a teach responsible. If that were so, a teacher would need to know the laws of the country for sure. Other than that, a teacher would probably be best advised not to try and become a lawyer as well.