OP
OP
If God forbid you should find yourself on the ground under an EDP trying to hurt you and you can pull this off then I say great! More power to you.
Examples from the real world involving KMA's
- Thread starter Kong Soo Do
- Start date
If God forbid you should find yourself on the ground under an EDP trying to hurt you and you can pull this off then I say great! More power to you.
And I say again, I gave the same facts to both a police officer and prosecutor and they both disagree with you, stating that it was a no arrest, no prosecution scenario, for a variety of reasons. Also, it was one person at the ATM, the girlfriend (I think that is what she was) stepped in after he stumbled back; she wasn't at the ATM machine, never said she was there. Seems like you are the only one who is overreacting.
Actually it is easier to feel for and hang on to that outside edge of the eye sockets, than generally trying to poke someone in the eye or pressing your thumb into their cornea. Try it and experiment for yourself if you don't believe me. Hapkido has all sorts of techniques like that.
OP
OP
Well...okay
Either way, your situational awareness was not at a level it should have been. You still allowed a man to come up behind you and grab your elbow while conducting an ATM transation. Not good. But that is okay as well for the purpose of this thread as it provides things for all of us to consider.
And how do you know this may I ask? How many times have you fought for your safety against a determined, resisting attacker and you've done either?
It was actually one person who came up from the side of me, not two.
No I didn't drop a $20. What preceded the grab was he came up and asked if I could help him out. I responded by telling him to step off and leave me alone. He then grabbed the sleeve of my jacket at the elbow, and asked again in a more threatening manner, "I said, can you help me out?"
My reaction was not to break his wrist but to do a elbow defense #1 on him. As for the strike to the throat, if you one have one type, then I can understand how you would think that a strike to the throat is a strike to the throat. But just like eye attacks, there are many different ways, at least to a Hapkido practitioner. Hapkidoin have more tools in their bag than just a hammer.
I wouldn't say I was in fear for my life. But it was a physical confrontational situation. The strike in the throat was to get him off of me. It is the second half of that technique. He was a homeless guy and smelled of urine and other stench.
Yeah, but I didn't kick him in the head, remember?
Not to the police officer and prosecutor from the area that I spoke with. They have better things to do than prosecute this type of case.
Maybe one day you will come to realize the difference between your position and mine. Then again, maybe not. And you are not pissing me off, but it is a little humorous how you flip flop on the idea of "excessive force". Go ahead, arrest me and see if you can justify the arrest beyond a reasonable doubt. If your supervisor doesn't quash it, the prosecutor will.
And good luck serving those homeless people with a trial subpeona. In fact, good luck trying to get their real name, much less their ID. I didn't kick him in the head. And there are all kinds of strikes to the throat, although it sounds like you only have one type. And maybe next time I don't have to injure his wrist. But I give a lot of details. And I was aware of my surroundings.
Any comments on the way I snatched the pebble from that scalper's hand? Or should I have kicked him in the knee instead?
Again, he didn't come up from behind me. He came from the side. You make it sound like he clubbed me from behind and ran off with my money, which did not happen.
Actually, I've fought many times against a determined, resisting attacker, more than you will ever know. I actually get calmer the more the predicament gets hairier. Perhaps I will turn the corner and get cut, shot, beat up, bludgeoned to death because my "situational awareness" was not up to par, but it hasn't happened yet. But you can always hope, right?
We have experimented with it as realistically as possible, without actually hurting someone. To me, it is easier to hang on to that edge than not. Try it if you do not believe me. But if that is not good enough for you, if you wish to take everything in the light most disfavorable to me, then that is your business. The fact of the matter is, I am still here, I was never injured, arrested, prosecuted or much less thrown in jail, despite your monday morning quarterbacking to the contrary, about how what I did left much to be desired.
OP
OP
Do you really think this? Seriously, do you really think I would hope you get hurt or worse? Were having a discussion, and to me that is all. If you're thinking I have ill feelings towards you you're incorrect.
I thought about your last post on the previous page. I was going to come back with a point for point commentary showing you that you weren't doing yourself any favors with the added details. But your taking all this way to personal and way to serious. So I'm going to reverse gears and simply say that I'm glad you are alive and well after all of your altercations to be able to be apart of this board. In fact, since you've mentioned that you've had many altercations, I'd like you to share them if you like. Put in the points from the altercations that you think are important for people to know and train for. After all, that is the purpose of the thread.
It's late, I'm tired and I'm going to bed. Peace
If I or a "sport guy" like me did get hurt and failed to defend himself in a self defense situation, it would tend to validate your position. As it stands, I pretty much invalidate your assumptions about "sport" types, in kind of the same way that I invalidated your historical connection to Mabuni Sensei.
Your turn. Do you have any situations that you would like to share that didn't occur when you were on duty and you used Korean Martial Arts to defend yourself? That would be more applicable to the majority of Korean Martial Arts practitioners than the inmate story, because it would be more real, at least to them.
troubleenuf
Blue Belt
OK .... you two need to find a new hobby.
So the one time I actually had to use force to defend myself was when a I had only started training. I was a lowly yellow belt and a guy takes a big haymaker at me. I hit him once with a right straight he dropped like a rock and it was over but for the police report. Worse part of it was I thought I killed the guy. He was not breathing very good and lost a few teeth. Im thinking he gave up drinking after that... or at least he should have. Long shot was, I was justified in defending myself and it was his fault for attacking me. The police thought it was kind of funny as the guy had a rep for picking fights and they thought it was about time he got what was coming to him.
Now I did have some other situations restraining some kids in the high school I worked at but nothing serious.
So the one time I actually had to use force to defend myself was when a I had only started training. I was a lowly yellow belt and a guy takes a big haymaker at me. I hit him once with a right straight he dropped like a rock and it was over but for the police report. Worse part of it was I thought I killed the guy. He was not breathing very good and lost a few teeth. Im thinking he gave up drinking after that... or at least he should have. Long shot was, I was justified in defending myself and it was his fault for attacking me. The police thought it was kind of funny as the guy had a rep for picking fights and they thought it was about time he got what was coming to him.
Now I did have some other situations restraining some kids in the high school I worked at but nothing serious.
TAGBmark
White Belt
The TAGB are a seperate entity to the ITF & WTF, however the competition rules are very similar to the ITF.
The training sessions vary from class to class, although we always do 30-45 mins of sparring per lesson on average. The rest of a session's are made up of any variety of things, heavy bag work, pad work, Patterns, Self Defence and Circuit training/Drills.
We don't focus on defending against gun's in our classes as firearms are illegal in the UK and very difficult to get a hold of, yes occassionally people will get a hold of them but the only time that seems to happen is when serious organised crime is involved.
The self defence/protection training varies, there is a big focus on calming a situation down through body language and stance (For instance using your Fence); after that it varies, punch/kick defence, grabs, if you end up on your a*se, milling etc - they generally teach what has worked for them when working on the doors.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
REALLY!?
28 gun crimes committed in UK every day
"Children as young as 11 or 12 are carrying guns," he said. "The sad reality is that it is becoming so routinely reported by the press that a child has been shot that the shock value has been eliminated."
Also considering this report it would seem that there were about 18,000 major crimes where firearms were reported to be involved in the year 2006-2007 including burglary (and surely not all burglary is "serious organised crime" related).
While I agree with you that it's not a frequent enough occurence to be worth training for in the UK, I disagree that it's that rare an occurrence and just related to mobs/gangs.
Actually, I just thought you had missed his post.
Don't think anything is hidden. The purpose of kendo was penned in 1975, but by the time kendo came about, swordsmanship was on the way out. Japan's military was modernizing and the riffle had become the weapon of the modern soldier, as it had everywhere else. Kendo was, and to my knowledge, still is, used as part of Japanese police training. But the benefits to the police have little to do with improving their police skills and more to do with cultivating a vigorous spirit and contributing to improved stamina. That and its fun!
You and I both.
Family time in martial arts means parents bringing their school agekids to a later, but usually late afternoon/early evening class, where students tend to be a little older and mom or dad is required to discipline and keep their own kid in line during the class. The main idea of a family class is to get either the parent or the kid hooked. Frequently, the kids quit after black belt or sometime along the way due to the call of other activities, but often the parent will stay in the class. My younger son and I got involved with the school where I have been for the past eight years because he wanted to take kendo and we couldn't make the kids class due to my work schedule (I have full custody of my kids, so there was no wife to cart them around while I was at work. Older son drives now.)Getting back to the direction this thread has taken, rather than as it started, I understand there is physical work in martial arts. You can get in much better shape. You can gain self confidence in yourself in threatening situations. Discipline is necessary to really learn martial arts. Self discipline as well as submitting to authority is a good life lesson. Family time? If all or a lot of the family buys into the training, and its is a part of their family life, nothing wrong with that. I just didn't know it was a reason for studying martial arts. I never heard of family boxing schools.
That may be what the term means, but taekwondo and frankly, most empty handed MA were never war arts. The term 'martial art' is a western term. They didn't call karate bujutsu and taekwondo, while practiced by Korean military, is not a war art. Anymore than boxing and wrestling are, even though those are both practiced by US military personel.
Technically, they are martial ways, though personally, I'm not contesting anyone. I think that sport is just fine. I do however, think that training for sport and training for self defense are two different specialities, but there is room for both in most MA programs.
Daniel
OP
OP
Actually you didn't. You take Hapkido from your own statements. Hapkido is widely recognized as one of the more SD related Korean arts, though it depends from school to school. You did not use sport techniques on this bad guy. Unless there is a competition out there that I'm unaware of that allows wrist locks, strikes to the throat and kicks to the head after the opponent has gone to the ground???
As far as Mabuni, I'd say it all depends on who you want to believe, the Jidokwan or Hanmukwan. I didn't buy your whole, 'this is what he was really saying bit'. But it doesn't really matter and has nothing to do with the thread.
Okay, but I'm going to use another on-duty altercation. Although you haven't made to connection of the applicability yet, others have
Escorting a drunk into the processing area of the jail (where they do the booking, prints, photos etc). At this point he's a 'happy drunk' and he's complying with my escort hold which is simply one hand on the elbow and the other on his wrist. It isn't a lock or anything, rather a low level 'come-along' for compliant individuals that allows you to have your hands on them in case they go non-compliant.
Well...he becomes non-compliant. I knew he was drunk from the smell. What I didn't know is that he was also a trusty of modern chemistry. I think meth if I remember right. Anyway, he stops in his tracks like his feet are nailed to the floor. I'm thinking, 'well...here we go'. He stiffens up his entire body, so try as I might, I can't get him in an arm lock. Which was momentarily frustrating because I'm suppose to be the guy at work that wraps them up like a pretzel. Well...not today. At this point (I'm talking about two seconds into the incident) I'm looking for a distraction strike so that I can re-try an arm lock of some type. I never got the chance. He wheels around with a haymaker from his other hand. I still have a grip on the other arm and don't see the incoming punch but I do feel he body movements. Since this is something we've trained for I know there is a punch coming even though I haven't seen it yet. I raise my right arm into a cover we call a 'shield block' which catches his punch on the outside of my right arm. I then chop down with an edge-of-hand strike to the side of the neck (brachial plexus), followed up be the same strike with my other hand on the other side of his neck. Since both my hands were already around his upper body I grab the back of his head Muey Thai style and give him a knee spike into the solar plexus. He goes down and with the help of the Deputies in the processing area we cuff him up.
Now, my take home points to offer;
- Never take a drunk for granted, they may turn their behavior on a dime. I was Mr. I.P.C. with this guy but at some point he just stopped being nice.
- My specialty is locks. But there was no way I was going to get a lock on this joker at this time and place. Although momentarily frustrated I couldn't pull of one of my signature moves, I shook it off and made the decision to do something else.
- By training hands-on as much as I have, I knew what he was trying to do without actually seeing it. That isn't magic. The body commonly moves only so many ways. When you're familiar with that you can anticipate probable actions. For example, a boxer looks for the dipping of the opponents shoulder before a punch. It is simply body language and knowing the language. It isn't difficult and I think it is good for anyone to train even if their focus is other than SD.
- I trained for those two edge-of-hand strikes and just did them instinctively. Under duress, those simple gross motor strikes just came back automatically. Nothing fancy.
- The knee spike is also a gross motor skill that I've trained for as a conclusion.
- There are areas of the body that are generally better to strike than others. The side of the neck, with appropriate force, and the solar plexus are high % areas. In my situation, due to this individual being taller than me and our body position, I had no choice but to use an edge-of-hand to the sides of his neck. But it can cause damage depending on the force in addition to the stunning effect. In this case it didn't, but would have been justified if it had due to Officer/subject factors and his level of resistance. But taking into account the advice Puunui has offered, if one can use the inside or outside of the forearm for this strike, it is perhaps even more effective and lessens the change of actual damage. In otherwords, the force of the strike is spread out over a larger area and doesn't 'penetrate' as much. I would have preferred this over the EOH but couldn't due to several factors as mentioned.
OP
OP
- This demonstrates a principle called CWCT (closest weapon closest target). As I did a shield block on his hayaker, my right hand was raised high in the air close to his upper body/head area. I simply brought the hand down into the strike. My 'closest' weapon was my hand the the closest 'target' was the side of his neck.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
The SD mindset is utterly vital because it is one of the primary roots and fonts for excellent achievement and quality character for human beings regardless of the culture,gender,age and challenges that life throws at us,in whatever venue. The difference between the SD mindset and the sports mindset is that the sportive mindset is the range and depth of stimuli: the sportive mindset's stimuli peaks at about half of the intensity level of the SD mindset. This difference oftentimes has a direct impact on one's performance and character quality throughout one's entire life. Both the SD and sport mindset take execise,health,discipline,respect,family and more to very very high levels,if done properly...so both sport and SD mindsets encompass the laudable activities that you mention.
On to a few instances that come to mind that are real word examples of me using or observing the use of Korean martial arts:
1) My favorite. I was coming to pick my children up from school--something that I normally don't do but we had a family function to attend directly after school--and as I pulled up,my daughters and neice sprinted up to me and told me that my son was being accosted by bullies. As all of these girls are pretty capable martial artists, 2 of the 3 of them being older than my son--the best elementary school martial artists in the Long Beach Unified School division,in my highly biased opinion lol--I was a bit surprised that the girls weren't with him or hadn't alerted the school officials. Turns out that when I arrived I saw that the school officials were busy directing several hundred kids and a dozen or so animated parents who were parked in the teachers' parking lot and weren't leaving because they thought that they had a right to be there (don't ask me why,never found out). The school staff had been slashed to the bone due to Arnold's gubernatorial fiscal policies (I live in CA),so the security and other personnel which usually absorbed and dealt with this kind of thing without a problem wasn't there.The current staff--at just barely more than half of their previous numbers--was quite simply overwhelmed.
That's when I espied my son being heckled by nearly a half-dozen larger older boys.I didn't catch their words,but their body language was aggressive and threatening.Closed fists waving. They'd gotten within half an arm's length of my son. I started walking toward him with the intent to deescalate the situation,when my son saw me coming,bent down to pick up his backpack...and that's when one of the bigger boys sought to push him and another one tried to cuff him on the back of the head.
Smooth as can be,my son scooped his backpack from the ground and morphed that movement into a dive roll on cement which he executed flawlessly.He leaped clear of the half circle of bullies,tucked and rolled and came to his feet maybe 10 yards from me."Hey Daddy!" My powerfully built son smiled at the same time that other witnesses--adults and kids,and even a few of the bullies--exclaimed:"whoa!" I hugged him and looked at the bullies.They hadn't moved an inch. I gave each of them THE LOOK.They got the message.I informed the vice-principal--a no-nonsene Latina--and she immediately sent the bullies into the main office to await punishment and to call their parents. My son and I walked to my SUV. "Did you see that they tried to hit you,son?" "Yeah Daddy," my son responded without the least worry or concern,"Sam and Clyde and those guys TRIED to hit me,but it didn't work." "So why didn't you hit them back,son?" "'Cause you said that if nobody hit me,don't hit them.Plus you said that using my martial arts on somebody for the wrong reason makes me a bully and I don't wanna be a bully.Clyde and Sam didn't hit me...they missed. So I didn't have a reason to beat them up.And you told the principal and she took care of it soooo...I was thinking I could play some Mortal Kombat in your car while we go to Auntie's house." "Next time,son,you tell the principal yourself so it never gets to a point where a bunch of boys are trying to mess with you in the first place.Okay?" "Promise,Dad. Betcha Dallas beats Miami in Game 2(NBA Finals talk..and turned out he was right). But Miami is prolly gonna win the whole thing. But Sub-Zero is cooler than all of them though."
I love him soooo much.Lol.
2. THE ANIME ANGELS
That's what my neice,my daughters,their Korean friend Sun and their Latin friend Alicia call themselves.I always thought it was their name for their group which absolutely loves anime,reading,and their online gaming escapades (which it is) but I had an opportunity to observe them work as a unit together when some neighborhood girls tried to jump my youngest daughter (who'd been entrusted with their video games while the older girls played with their friends) and make off with a few hundred dollars of their beloved video games.
I came upon the scene when the conflict had already escalated to the physical level.It was quickly over with.There was a chorus of kiyaps as: I saw Princess plant a lead leg round house to the stomach of one girl,folding her like origami.My neice--whose nickname is BODACIOUS--nailed another girl with a jump sidekick,Sun drilled another girl with a spin kick to the back of the girl's neck and Alicia landed a backfist jump switch kick to the stomach-face of another girl.Before I could do anything,my daughter ran and tackled another girl who'd seized my youngest daughter--who's only 6--by her hair and was smacking her in the face. My daughter and the older bigger girl she tackled rolled on the ground for a second,disentangled,and scrambled to their feet.Princess got to her feet faster with a kip up that she instantly transformed into front kick which made glancing contact to her opponent's thigh but followed with a devastating tornado kick which smacked home on the left cheek of the girl and dropped her like a sack of rocks.
I comforted my youngest daughter,and when she stopped crying I sent THE ANIME ANGELS to my daughters' mother's house.I was joined by park staff and we checked the victims of THE ANIME ANGELS to be sure that the girls weren't badly hurt. Bumps,bruises,a missing tooth (tornado kick) but nothing serious. These girls had done a few rowdy things before,so the overall vibe I got was:"You girls deserved that beatdown" from staff and witnesses. I was of like mind,so I exited. The girls' parents didn't really press the issue; I agreed not to consider any police charges if they agreed not to press me to pay for the tooth that my Princess kicked out,and that was that. Almost never does a scrape with children rise to the level of legal matters between parents in my neck of the woods.
3. THE SCRAP AT THE DRIVE THRU DAIRY
I was at the local dairy standing waiting in line behind this guy when he starts in on the cashier.Seems like he was swearing that he was being overcharged. The cashier is wife to the store's co-owner;she's a sweet but strong Latina whom I've known for over a decade now.She doesn't overcharge people. Well,this guy was really getting worked up.His buddy gets out of his car from the drive thru window to see what's going on,takes in the argument,literally says:"**** this wetback *****" snatches the milk and sweets on the bar and starts walking away with it. As Madre (that's what we call her) said:"I'm calling the police" and turned to reach for the phone,the first jerk reached across the bar and grabbed her by the throat with his right hand,put his left forefinger in her face and hissed:"You ain't doin ****,*****!"
I chopped his right arm at the bicep,a shocking blow.I'm not a big guy at 5'7" 158 but I can bench double my bodyweight,squat quadruple my bodyweight,can slam dunk,have Olympic level 400 speed,etc. and I don't lift weights.He yelped as he released her and I snaked my left arm under his arm into a half-Nelson,banged his face off of the cashier bar's hard surface as I fed his right arm behind his back and applied a painful wristlock,which elicited a loud howl of shocked agony. The guy with the food read the situation,reversed course away from his car with the running engine and toward me and his friend,I hurled his friend into the oncoming bad guy and dropped them both with the same sweep kick.Lol.I stomped on the back of the idiot on top of the idiot on the bottom,reached behind my back like I had something in my back pocket which was more menacing than the wallet that I actually was gripping,and informed them:"You are under arrest for disturbing the peace,attempted robbery and assault.Any further resistance by you will result in a corresponding escalation of force." The combination of the shock of my martial arts skill,my verbal judo and use of police jargon was enough to keep the stupid bad guys down and docile until the real cops arrived,and cuffed em.Lol.
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I know that this was not directed at me, but I'd like to comment on it if you don't mind.
I think that it is important to at least connect the techniques to realistic self defense situations, though I don't think that the classes have to be entirely, or even mostly SD based.
By and large, I am a huge proponent of repetition of technique and of forms. A sparring element is always fun and I think that it is vital because it allows students to work with a resisting opponent.
Having said that, if a school promotes self defense in its literature, then they darned well better deliver.
Daniel
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Korean martial arts, SD, Rock n' Roll and 1%ers
Over the years I was fortunate enough to have made friends with Dickie Peterson, bass player/singer/co-founder of the pioneer hard rock band Blue Cheer (if you never heard of them and you like hard blues-rock, you must check them out!) We would go see them when they came to Cleveland, Detroit, DC, NYC, etc.
The first time I saw Blue Cheer in Cleveland, they had a big 1%er logo on their drum set. I thought that was interesting. I started to notice that as the crowd packed into the venue, it seemed half of the folks were HA's. Sure enough Dickie later told me that Blue Cheer along with Big Brother & the Holding Company (Janis Joplin) were the official house bands for a California based HA club. Being in a rough area of Cleveland, that made me feel kind of safe, in a strange kind of way. Then right after the show in the parking lot, I guess two guys got into it with a 1%er, wow, it was like bee's to honey, must have been 15+ other 1%er's taking a piece out of those two guys, it was a brutal, scary serious self defense situation that turned out real bad for the two guys.
As soon as I saw that going down, I told the people I was with to immediately follow me, using the logic I teach in class. We walked around about the block to get to my car, avoiding the situation.
That's Korean Martial Arts in action.
OP
OP
You've got good reason to be proud of your boy, he's got a good head on his shoulders. Thank you for sharing this
Sounds like your dojang is like most dojang out there, a balance of everything. I'll take your self defense story as one which supports the idea that you don't need to train in a specialized self defense program in order to learn self defense. Thanks.
