Personally, I don't see any difference between the "sportive" mindset and the "SD" mindset. If anything, I think it is easier to defend yourself against the normal situation (like your son's, weak kids with weak skills trying to assert themselves) than competition, because the higher you go, the harder it is.
Examples from the real world involving KMA's
- Thread starter Kong Soo Do
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Personally, I don't see any difference between the "sportive" mindset and the "SD" mindset. If anything, I think it is easier to defend yourself against the normal situation (like your son's, weak kids with weak skills trying to assert themselves) than competition, because the higher you go, the harder it is.
Personally, that's a hard choice for me, because I like both teams, for different reasons. Both Dirk and Lebron are on a mission, Dirk trying to win at least one championship before he retires, and Lebron trying to surpass his (former?) idol Michael Jordan in every way, including number of championships. It's like Rocky vs. Apollo Creed.
OP
OP
Best way not to get hit is not to be there in the first place.
Has anyone ever seen the movie "Tremors"? That's the one with the giant underground monster worms that attack the people in the valley. There is a great scene which has 'Vale' and 'Earl' are trapped on top of a huge boulder in the middle of the desert as one of the monsters circles around underground like a shark waiting for them. Earl says, 'We need a plan". Vale shoots back, "I say we just run like hell"! And Earl say, "Run!!!....running isn't a plan...running is what you do when the plan fails"! It's a silly example but I use it in our classes as people tend to remember it because of the humor. I tell the student that it is the same thing with fighting. Fighting isn't the plan, fighting is what you do when the plan fails. SD happens long before we have to go hands on with someone. SD is;
- Having situational awareness.
- Layering your defenses i.e. the security of your home.
- Avoidance.
- Evasion or tactical retreat.
- De-esculation.
That's right, I didn't. So how do you know other "sport guys" wouldn't do the same thing, use non-sport techniques in a self defense situation?
It has nothing to do with I say he say, it has to do with the fact that Dr. Yoon, who is your connection to Mabuni Sensei, in fact was a heavy competition advocate, not a self defense advocate, as was Mabuni Sensei. It is no coincidence that the photo with Mabuni Sensei wearing sparring equipment is the exact same equipment that Dr. Yoon used when he brought the exchange team from Korea to fight in Japan, against students from his old Kanbukan organization. Dr. Yoon was a sport guy, as was Mabuni Sensei, irrespective of what Mabuni Sensei's experience as a police officer in Okinawa when he was 18 years old, back in early 20th century. By the time Dr. Yoon trained with him, he was busy working on a competition format for Karatedo.
Okay, but I'm going to use another on-duty altercation. Although you haven't made to connection of the applicability yet, others have
I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. I get the fact that this is a "real" situation and that you can learn from it. What I don't think YOU get is the fact that what is a real situation for YOU isn't necessarily a real situation for the average martial arts student learning in a strip mall in USA suburbia. The fact that I specifically asked you for a non-LEO example and that you could not come up with one only underlines that particular point. You get paid to put yourself at risk. That is your job and your reality, just like soldiers voluntarily join the infantry and get sent to Afghanistan or Iraq and risk death and permanent injury. But the cardio kickboxing mom who is dropping off little johnny to his tkd tiny tigers class in her brand new mercedes suv, isn't in that same situation. She made a different choice than you or the soldier did. So maybe her martial arts training and her son's doesn't have to focus so much on self defense, that maybe some exercise and discipline and family time is and should be, ok too. If you want to be a special ops guy, that's great, but some join the army simply to get the GI Bill and be an accountant, or lawyer, or doctor, or cook, and so they don't need a ranger tab or eib.
That's all.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
This is true. Chong Woo Lee and other Jidokwan seniors often talked about their "friendship exchanges" in Japan. There is a story that Chong Woo Lee kicked a Japanese competitor with a front kick, with the toes curled under. Seniors said it broke through the old bamboo hogu and killed the guy.
OP
OP
After I logged off last night a thought struck me that I wanted to share in the thread. Although not a KMA thing, it may have some application regardless of whether or not one trains with an edged weapon.
Back when I was in the service I had a situation arise on my first trip back from overseas. On the way back to the families house from the base we stopped at a diner for a cup of coffee and a bathroom break. It was around midnight give or take. As we walked to the car in the parking lot we heard a crash down the road. A car had hit a telephone poll about 50 yards or so from the diner's parking lot. I was the first one to get there. I was only about 19 or 20 and had never seen anything like that in person. It was a little 'toaster on wheels' type of car and the telephone poll did a number on it. The driver was slumped over the steering wheel and I could see cerebrial fluid running out of his ears. The passenger was slumped down in his seat with his seat belt on. Somehow in the crash his right leg was was sticking out of the passenger window, almost severed and hanging by skin. The odd thing was that no blood was flowing from the injury. As I tried to get in the smashed passenger side I was looking directly into his eyes and saw the 'lights go out' for lack of a better description. That was the first time I ever saw a man die in front of me. Well, fire rescue was there in a flash and took over. I don't know what happened to the driver.
The point of the story is this; there was really nothing I could have done for either in the time that I had. It took the jaws of life to get them out. But it got me thinking. What if I could have somehow gotten inside the car. I had absolutely nothing if the seat belt didn't unfasten. A knife, while obviously making a good weapon for defense, is also a tool for many other functions such as a rescue tool. Since then I've seen many times a knife has been useful for a rescue. I've personally cut down 12 people attempting suicide. In this light, I've carried a knife (Spyderco Endura with serrated blade) daily for over 17 years. I also carry a Swiss Army Tinker pocket knife. Both have come in handy countless times for common tasks as well as some rescues. So for me, an edged weapon is a rescue tool primarily, common tool secondarily with the added function of a weapon last.
Just wanted to add this to the thread.
Back when I was in the service I had a situation arise on my first trip back from overseas. On the way back to the families house from the base we stopped at a diner for a cup of coffee and a bathroom break. It was around midnight give or take. As we walked to the car in the parking lot we heard a crash down the road. A car had hit a telephone poll about 50 yards or so from the diner's parking lot. I was the first one to get there. I was only about 19 or 20 and had never seen anything like that in person. It was a little 'toaster on wheels' type of car and the telephone poll did a number on it. The driver was slumped over the steering wheel and I could see cerebrial fluid running out of his ears. The passenger was slumped down in his seat with his seat belt on. Somehow in the crash his right leg was was sticking out of the passenger window, almost severed and hanging by skin. The odd thing was that no blood was flowing from the injury. As I tried to get in the smashed passenger side I was looking directly into his eyes and saw the 'lights go out' for lack of a better description. That was the first time I ever saw a man die in front of me. Well, fire rescue was there in a flash and took over. I don't know what happened to the driver.
The point of the story is this; there was really nothing I could have done for either in the time that I had. It took the jaws of life to get them out. But it got me thinking. What if I could have somehow gotten inside the car. I had absolutely nothing if the seat belt didn't unfasten. A knife, while obviously making a good weapon for defense, is also a tool for many other functions such as a rescue tool. Since then I've seen many times a knife has been useful for a rescue. I've personally cut down 12 people attempting suicide. In this light, I've carried a knife (Spyderco Endura with serrated blade) daily for over 17 years. I also carry a Swiss Army Tinker pocket knife. Both have come in handy countless times for common tasks as well as some rescues. So for me, an edged weapon is a rescue tool primarily, common tool secondarily with the added function of a weapon last.
Just wanted to add this to the thread.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
I believe I addressed this area already...and yes I agree that the median wavelength for sport situations visavis fitness technical skill etc. is higher visavis civilian SD because athletes tend to be in better shape overall.They're generally stronger,faster, possess grater quickness,flexibility,agility,greater endurance,etc. than the average person.But the more severe SD scenarios require superior skill sets that are not addressed for the most part by sport combatives,and this reality is what tends to make the SD specialist superior overall than the sports combatant. We don't tell say Mark Lopez to go smash those terrorists,despite the fact that he'd kick the holy crap out of them (literally) if he caught them at range with his patented kicking combos. We send guys like Navy SEAL TEAM 6 or DELTA FORCE.Their training is superior,their athleticism is superior,their weaponry and tactics are superior visavis SD. If Mark Lopez tried to apply his skills and somebody broke out a knife,he got tackled,he was in the midst of a multifight,etc. etc.? He'd be out of his element. Not so the SD martial mindset and martial artist.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
You've got good reason to be proud of your boy, he's got a good head on his shoulders. Thank you for sharing this
Thank you very much! I enjoy reading your posts,as imo your posts tend to have something of value that I can glean from them.So far I agree with the overarching sentiment and content of your posts.Keep on posting,my brother.
Except that their skills aren't superior visavis SD. Their skills are superior vivavis search and destroy. Smashing terrorists is not self defense. It is a military operation. The comparison makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Its like comparing baseball player to an NFL football player; each is good at what they do and both are far removed from the realities of daily life.
Daniel
OP
OP
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Okay then we have differing perspectives of SD.I include the military and any other group like law enforcement within SD.If you're defending lives by taking the lives of bad guys who would prey on the innocent? That's self-defense to me.Because those bad guys will either come for you first or the people whom you love and/or are sworn to protect.Taking down a serial killer,a robber,a rapist,a guy that jumped bail,a internationally wanted terrorist,and the neighborhood bully are ALL SD to me...just one is CIVILIAN SD and the other is MILITARY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT SD.But SD is SD.To me? The unspoken,tacit agreement regarding SD and martial training is that you're defending your life and/or the lives of others honorably using martial techniques.I think your definition is more exclusive to civilian SD,and therefore I understand where you're coming from.I hope that you now have a better understanding of my perspective now.If you wish to debate the matter further? Fine with me too.
Wow! Those sad civilians. So the "real world" studio you attend offers anti-terrorism classes? You work with firearms, bombs, etc. as part of the regular self defense curriculum? Do students, including children, have to bring in machetes to class? Are live-round duels part of regular sparring in the dojang? Is water boarding included in belt tests? Do black belts have to walk on mines to show ability to stay balanced under stress?
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Nope,none of that stuff except for the firearms part and every once in a while we work machetes for the heft fun and feel of it.See,we do CIVILIAN SELF DEFENSE in addition to sport tournaments in my Gym. The distinction that I've made isn't a new one,and in fact is derived from the military,LEO and correctional professionals martial artists who are both professionals in this field AND martial arts instructors.
Ask Doc about it.I'm sure that he could enlighten you if for some reason you're unable or unwilling to see the difference between civilian self-defense and military self-defense...and fail to recognize that (despite the differing scenarios) it's STILL self-defense.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Excepting the firearms and machete part (you ever train in kali?),we don't do any of that stuff.Somehow,my developing master of The Force encourages me to intuit that you may not do such a thing either.As I stated before,we're focusing on CIVILIAN self-defense in our Gym and sport combat tournaments.Doing so,however,doesn't prevent us from being able to see what imho is a veeerrry obvious and even blatant connection between civilian and military self-defense. If you would like to personally experience our efficacy in the spirit of helping one another develope our martial efficacy and in the tradition of martial arts brotherhood? We'd love to have you.Bring your machete.Lol. I also travel periodically,so if you're not too far from California? It's not impossible that I may visit you,if that is acceptable to you.And we can work out.Hard.On the mat.Videotape it for posterity and stuff like that.Whaddya say?
Krav Maga makes the distinction between civilians and military self-defense,yet acknowledges that it's self-defense.I think our correctional officers would strenuously assert that they would benefit from our training (I'm being facetious here--half a dozen of my regulars are CO's for Termino Island and now a few other places too,so I know FOR A FACT that our training has saved their lives and a few of their colleagues too from severe harm,not to mention more than several dozen inmates).Matta fact? You can talk to Doc about his 20+ years as a Sheriff,a martial arts pioneer and legend,and I'm sure that he can articulate a position that you might be able to respect/grasp/both/whatever.
With the greatest respect,if you wish to discuss or debate this further--there is a sharp difference--I would be happy to engage you and anyone else.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
No. Not differing perspectives. You are applying a definition that is inapplicable.
This is common defense and maintaining peace, not self defense. That is the function that the military and law enforcement perform.
What you are talking about is not self defense. You are talking about arrest and incarceration of a felon. If the serial killer/robber/rapist/guy that jumped bail/internationally wanted terrorist or neighborhood bully attack the officer in question in the process, then the officer is also defending him or herself at the time. But the act of going after the serial killer is not self defense.
Nor is the apprehension of internationally wanted terrorists by coordinated military action.
Self defense, by definition, is defense of one's self. Legally, this extends to include defense of property or of another person. Another term for self defense is private defense. By its nature, self defense is personal in nature. I defend myself, my family or my property. If I come to the direct aid of another person, I am now in harm's way and am really defending myself at that point.
My definition is not the issue, as it is not my definition.
The reason that we differ has nothing to do with civilian vs. military/LEO. Honor and martial arts techniques have nothing to do with it either. If I decide to go to a crack house and start kicking the crap out of the crack dealer and he fights back without having had any training, he's still acting in self defense.
The reason that we differ is because you have made up your own definition.
The actual definition is not mine and is as follows:
Merriam-Webster said:
If you disagree, take it up with these folks: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self defense
There is nothing to debate. Your definition is simply incorrect. Romantic perhaps, but incorrect. There are other terms for the things that you describe.
And comparing Mark Lopez' taekwondo skills to the specialized skills of anti terrorism units makes no sense.
If you feel that it does, then fine
. I have no personal investment in how you choose to re-purpose terms with established meanings for your own use.My point was simply that your analogy is inapplicable. Mark Lopez doesn't go "smashing terrorists" for the same reason that firemen don't chase down suspects in a homicide: they are neither qualified nor have the tools needed to do so.
Daniel
A little laughter is not a bad thing, is it?
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Mr. Sullivan - You have a right to have your own opinions, and I like the respectful as well as thoughtful way you present your side of an issue. But I think you and ATACX GYM are splitting hairs. I would like to suggest a scenario for your comment.
Suppose I am an LEO and go to ATACX GYM's house with an arrest warrant. He disagrees with the arrest, but being a good citizen, he submits immediately and passively to a wall search and being hand cuffed. He wishes to obey the law and will submit himself to the courts for redress. We chat genially on the way to my vehicle and on the way to the hooskow.
Next I go to your house with an arrest warrant. You are not going to be a good citizen, and are incensed that someone has sworn out a warrant for your arrest. That person isn't present, so you decide to resist and take your anger out on me. You begin to agressively resist, attacking me with your training, with the apparent intent to do harm to me. I use training I have received and manage to subdue you with minimal injury to you and especially to myself.
How do you define my actions in regard to you? Is there any self defense on my part? Where does one draw the line?
Citizens have a duty to submit to lawful actions by LEO. In the real world, it often happens they don't, but under the law, that is what they are supposed to do.
As to your mention of military offensive actions, I agree, that is a different. Military (including insurgents) being attacked have a duty to resist, and must be expected to do so.
Suppose I am an LEO and go to ATACX GYM's house with an arrest warrant. He disagrees with the arrest, but being a good citizen, he submits immediately and passively to a wall search and being hand cuffed. He wishes to obey the law and will submit himself to the courts for redress. We chat genially on the way to my vehicle and on the way to the hooskow.
Next I go to your house with an arrest warrant. You are not going to be a good citizen, and are incensed that someone has sworn out a warrant for your arrest. That person isn't present, so you decide to resist and take your anger out on me. You begin to agressively resist, attacking me with your training, with the apparent intent to do harm to me. I use training I have received and manage to subdue you with minimal injury to you and especially to myself.
How do you define my actions in regard to you? Is there any self defense on my part? Where does one draw the line?
Citizens have a duty to submit to lawful actions by LEO. In the real world, it often happens they don't, but under the law, that is what they are supposed to do.
As to your mention of military offensive actions, I agree, that is a different. Military (including insurgents) being attacked have a duty to resist, and must be expected to do so.
I disagree that we're splitting hairs. I also am not stating opinion. I am sticking with facts. I posted the dictionary definiton to demonstrate that.
In any case, this whole tangent developed because I said that Atacx comparing of Mark Lopez to anti-terrorism special forces units did not make any sense. And it doesn't. He furnished a very lengthy response wherein he volunteered his rather romantic notion of self defense. As I said, he is welcome to view it that way if he so chooses, but he is using his own definition for the term, or has adopted one that someone else came up with.
I addressed this in my response to Atacx:
Self defense occurs in the line of duty because of the nature of the job. But the things that he classifies as self defense simply are not self defense in and of themselves.
Self defense is also what you will plea if you injure or kill the resisting suspect in the process of the arrest.
And that brings us back to where we started: Mark Lopez being compared to special forces.
Daniel
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I addressed this in my response to Atacx:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
What you are talking about is not self defense. You are talking about arrest and incarceration of a felon. If the serial killer/robber/rapist/guy that jumped bail/internationally wanted terrorist or neighborhood bully attack the officer in question in the process, then the officer is also defending him or herself at the time. But the act of going after the serial killer is not self defense.
Yes, I see that you did. I think what was was reacting to was what I took to be ambiguity in saying "also" defending himself.
Without going back and looking, if another poster said going out to initiate an arrest was self defense, I agree, it is not. That is simply performing one's duty. If another poster said a military action was self defense, I covered that above. Some may wish to argue it is defending society or the country. While that may be true, it may sometimes be done without resulting violence.
Regardless, it is a performance of duty for the individual, and only becomes SD in the sense that the person tries to keep from being injured or killed himself, if an apparent non-violent situation suddenly turns to violence. Again, initiating an attack by military is not SD.
I'm in a bit of a hurry so I hope that makes sense. If not, ask for clarification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
What you are talking about is not self defense. You are talking about arrest and incarceration of a felon. If the serial killer/robber/rapist/guy that jumped bail/internationally wanted terrorist or neighborhood bully attack the officer in question in the process, then the officer is also defending him or herself at the time. But the act of going after the serial killer is not self defense.
Yes, I see that you did. I think what was was reacting to was what I took to be ambiguity in saying "also" defending himself.
Without going back and looking, if another poster said going out to initiate an arrest was self defense, I agree, it is not. That is simply performing one's duty. If another poster said a military action was self defense, I covered that above. Some may wish to argue it is defending society or the country. While that may be true, it may sometimes be done without resulting violence.
Regardless, it is a performance of duty for the individual, and only becomes SD in the sense that the person tries to keep from being injured or killed himself, if an apparent non-violent situation suddenly turns to violence. Again, initiating an attack by military is not SD.
I'm in a bit of a hurry so I hope that makes sense. If not, ask for clarification.
