A Real Deal

[Bigshadow]

Oh, I completely AGREE the neck shot was not excessive in this case!

Hindsight is always 20-20, though and from THAT perspective, a head shot probably would have worked out as well. But in a empty hand vs knife situation, I'd rather err on the side of "excessive" than "not enough" and end up in a pine box.

My point is that it is just something to think about (how hurtful a neck/throat shot can be!) when selecting a technique in a situation that is not quite as dire, say a drunk taking a swing in a bar, for example.

I certainly didn't know a throat strike could be that damaging... The story was definitely insightful!

 

[Bigshadow]

sorry

No worries!

 

[Brad Dunne]

I will gladly pass on all the good thoughts to my student. zDom hit on a major point that many people either overlook or honestly don't have a clue about and that is the distruction that can be delivered by a trained practicioner. Most folks kind of get caught up in the movie or ring fights. They don't actually realize that on the street, or in this case, in the jail, were not dealing with super conditioned athletes or movie action hero's, were dealing with the average every day person. To be honest, the shots that were delivered would probably do just as much damage to those trained people also. Bottom line is that no matter how much training one may have, it will almost always come down to gross motor skills and favorite techniques, unless one fights everyday for real. This incident somewhat validates that position. We spent over 2 years training 3-4 nights a week in Hapkido (takedowns, throws, arm bars and such) and when the "you know what" hit the fan, he reverted back to the very basics of kick/punch training. I have always subscribed to this mindset and inturn have attempted to convey this attitude on to other's. It usually takes something of this nature, a real altercation, to convince people of this positioning.

I hope that this thread will offer some value to those that participate here at MT. :asian:

 

[jks9199]

Rant on brother, rant on..THIS is one of the reasons/examples why I train and will continue doing so for as long as I can...Also NO ONE goes in the back of my cruiser UNLESS they are checked..If I put the cuffs on you, you are getting frisked...Officer safety MUST be a PRIORITY..The new rookies coming out of the academy should have had that drilled into their heads DAILY....

Ditto.

I'd be pissed off at the guys on the street that didn't SEARCH the arrestees. I know it get's hairy -- but SEARCH PRISONERS. If you're taking them into custody, a cop in the US has full authority to search that person. And has every responsibility to do so!

I don't know procedures where Brad's student works; at our jail, all prisoners are searched a second time when they enter the facility. (I'm assuming the cop searched 'em on the street.) That search often does find something missed on the street; it's under better light, in a much more controlled environment. Then, if they're booked in, they get searched AGAIN before they go into holding.

Now... I do have a small crique for Brad's student. To begin with -- he did a fantastic job handling the situation, and I don't give a rat's hind end about the s***head with brain damage. He's lucky he's not dead -- 'cause he tried to kill a cop. But, I don't like that he was handling two guys who apparently hadn't been searched by himself. It sounds like he was complacent -- and I've been there, too. One of the last guys I fought in patrol (I'm currently a detective) freaked out -- and only in hindsight did I see the signs he was screaming at me that he was going to be violent. I'll reiterate a training truism -- COMPLACENCY KILLS.

 

[jks9199]

I think he did right, I dont think they should have gotten any money out of it. If someone is attacking you with a knife my first assumption would be that they are trying to kill me.

I agree that the shot to the neck was possibly a bit excessive but I would not hold that against him whatsoever, sure saying if you would have done this it would have probably gotten the same result without so much damage to the person but when you are afraid for your life your not going to stand there and think about the hits you could use on the guy, atleast for me I think I would just react and go with instinct and do whatever it takes.

You may regret it or think about how you could have handled the situation better after the fact, but hey, atleast your still alive. If he would have hesitated more than he did who knows what would have happened.

If anything I would think the blame should go more to the people who did the processing and should have found the knife, You cant be perfect all the time and mistakes happen but I dont get how people get punished for defending themselves even in extreme cases where the attacker gets seriously injured. Its almost like legally you have to be the one that gets hurt the most to look like the victim.

BULL EXCREMENT. There's absolutely no way that the shot to the neck was excessive; the guy had a knife and was trying to kill the officer. Lethal force was absolutely justified. The officer did a fantastic job handling the situation. My only critique was meant to learn from it, and avoid a repeat.

Now that I've got that out of the way... I don't have a problem with your statements about solid & justified self defense being punished. Unfortunately, it's often cheaper for the government to pay out rather than fight, even with a solid case. The IA investigation was inevitable -- or would be with agencies in my area -- but the outcome was right. Which is how it's supposed to be. It's just too bad that more agencies won't fight the solid cases to deter the bogus ones.

 

[KenpoTex]

I think the officer in this situation did an excellent job...

The guys clearly demonstrated that they were trying to kill him, he responded appropriately given the circumstances.

If he had killed them, that's their fault...(I'm personally a little sad that he didn't). Anyone that says his actions were excessive needs to re-think their opinion. They pulled a weapon on him...they deserve whatever he can dish out.

 

[Sukerkin]

A most enlightening thread, gentlemen :tup:.

I can't believe that someone who, it is clear, attempted to kill an officer of the law, got rewarded for it!

Okay, I know I'm glossing over a lot there - the poor fellow (desperately trying to be compassionate here) ended up the worse for wear and will obviously need care. But still ...

I agree with the general sentiment of other posters on this - if you're in trouble with the law then your best bet is cooperation. If you can't do that, then whatever you receive from officers defending themselves is your own responsibility.

I know, in a more dispassionate sense, that the general populous need to be defended from the possibility of the police being used as an implement of oppression rather than protection but to turn that on it's head so badly as happened here beggars belief.

 

[theletch1]

I always make it a point to explain EXACTLY what damage could, and probably will, result from each technique that I teach...but only after the student runs through it nice and slow a couple of times. I want them to see how "easy" it is to make the technique work on a compliant uke who knows how to fall or roll and then tell them exactly which bones and/or joints would be, not just unjured, but destroyed on the street. This is always done while looking each student dead in the eyes so that the idea that I'm blowing smoke does not come into effect. If you are training for self defense and have not taken a long hard look at the potential damage that your techniques have been designed to do then you are not only dangerous, you're irresponsible. The LEO in the initial thread used his techniques very effectively and nearly fatally in the way they were INTENDED to be used. He did not act excessively, as proven by IA.

The idea that his unit decided that it was not only preferably not to charge at least one of the jackasses with attempting to murder an officer but to pay them off makes me want to scream! To all of you on this site that are law enforcement officers I want to say Thank you. You are doing a thankless job for a society that has decided that you must protect and serve an unappreciating public with one arm tied behind your back and you feet tied together. I wouldn't do it but I'm very thankful that there are those that will.

 

[exile]

My take:

(1) a hard-working, conscientious LEO was badly let down by rotten procedure, and insult was added to injury when full-metal justice was rejected in favor of appeasement.

(2) this LEO responded in exactly the right way: in the face of a deadly threat, and outnumbered two to one, he made excellent use of strikes to vulnerable points and saved his own innocent life as a consequence. More power to him!

(3) The judicial system in this country is horrifically damaged, if in view of (1) and (2), the perps got substantial $$ and the LEO had to undergo exaggerated scrutiny as a result of the incident in question.

I'm glad to see that my fellow MAists on this thread are totally supportive of this officer and the choices he made. That he had to undergo the burden of proof, as it appears, is judicial lunacy in action.

And there is a fourth point, for anyone who cares to take notice:

(4) In the course of totally legitimate self-protection, the LEO in Brad's thread responded with some basic TMA-style strikes to vulnerable places and completely laid out two nasty pieces of work intent, so far as we can see, on killing him. Next time someone makes a nasty flippant comment about the effectiveness of TMAs, or the possibility of neutralizing an oppo by strikes to weak points using TMA techs, just refer them to this thread and ask them to think about the implications.

 

[pstarr]

Damned good job!

I know - I spent years in the law enforcement field...ALWAYS (always, always, always) SEARCH EVERY INMATE, even if he was supposedly searched previously. Never let two of 'em strip or dress together - keep them separated.

But other than that, he did a fine job and obeyed the first rule of law enforcement..."Go home at the end your shift."