There are also forums and subforums on Martial Talk for this subject as well. Try checking the "Arts" section for the "Self Defense" forum, and its subforums, "Law Enforcement", "Security and Bouncers" and especially "War Stories". These might be more appropriate places for this topic. You might get more hits there.
Examples from the real world involving KMA's
- Thread starter Kong Soo Do
- Start date
There are also forums and subforums on Martial Talk for this subject as well. Try checking the "Arts" section for the "Self Defense" forum, and its subforums, "Law Enforcement", "Security and Bouncers" and especially "War Stories". These might be more appropriate places for this topic. You might get more hits there.
OP
OP
I appreciate the suggestion, but I wanted to narrow the scope down to KMA's. I chose the TKD section specifically as it is the most active overall and there have been several members other than myself discussing SD related topics in relation to TKD.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
From post #17 by Puunui:
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Most people, especially those sending their kids and themselves to suburban dojang paying $150 or more per month for lessons do live in a nice world. They certainly live in a different world than the one that you live in, where the possibility of an inmate attacking you is real. As for those things never happening, I am sure there is a possibility that it may happen, but the possibility is so small that it is not worth it to the majority of students to devote substantial time and energy to develop self defense skills that they will most probably never use. It may snow tomorrow in Hawaii, but that miniscule probability isn't worth me investing in snow chains or a heater for my house. Why should I prepare for the blizzard that will most probably never happen?
I'm not grasping at straws, I'm using an extreme example in an effort to get you to see things other than from your own viewpoint. Other people don't want or need self defense skills in the same way that you want or need them. And it should be ok for them to be martial arts students too, just like it should be ok for martial arts instructors to focus the training for these types of students on areas other than self defense.
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Puunui - are you an instructor, or an experienced MA? If so, why do the majority of people in your experience study MA? Sport or SD, if they are studying a Martial Art, by definition they are learning fighting skills. The mental skills they are taught, or not taught, may be debatable, but a martial art is a fighting art.
Do most people need fighting skills? Well, first they need to know how not to place themselves in harm's way when that is possible, then how to disengage if possible, then to defend if the first two options have failed. That is a very simple statement, I know. Are these not taught in most martial arts studios? I don't travel in martial arts circles, so I don't know. Thanks for anything you can offer on that.
____________________________________________________________________________
Most people, especially those sending their kids and themselves to suburban dojang paying $150 or more per month for lessons do live in a nice world. They certainly live in a different world than the one that you live in, where the possibility of an inmate attacking you is real. As for those things never happening, I am sure there is a possibility that it may happen, but the possibility is so small that it is not worth it to the majority of students to devote substantial time and energy to develop self defense skills that they will most probably never use. It may snow tomorrow in Hawaii, but that miniscule probability isn't worth me investing in snow chains or a heater for my house. Why should I prepare for the blizzard that will most probably never happen?
I'm not grasping at straws, I'm using an extreme example in an effort to get you to see things other than from your own viewpoint. Other people don't want or need self defense skills in the same way that you want or need them. And it should be ok for them to be martial arts students too, just like it should be ok for martial arts instructors to focus the training for these types of students on areas other than self defense.
________________________________________________________________________
Puunui - are you an instructor, or an experienced MA? If so, why do the majority of people in your experience study MA? Sport or SD, if they are studying a Martial Art, by definition they are learning fighting skills. The mental skills they are taught, or not taught, may be debatable, but a martial art is a fighting art.
Do most people need fighting skills? Well, first they need to know how not to place themselves in harm's way when that is possible, then how to disengage if possible, then to defend if the first two options have failed. That is a very simple statement, I know. Are these not taught in most martial arts studios? I don't travel in martial arts circles, so I don't know. Thanks for anything you can offer on that.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
You can put a tick in the "definitely" column for that question... ;-)
I started Taekwondo many moons ago because I was being bullied at school. Once I started taekwondo, very rapidly (within a few months) the bullying pretty much just stopped. I hadn't needed to fight anyone or hit anyone. I even had reduced the amount of avoiding people I had done up to that point.
What Taekwondo taught me was the self-confidence and it was that aspect of it that helped make me less of a victim (or seen as a potential victim).
Sure I could back it up with skills (probably less so than I thought at that time) but for me with hindsight the most important reasons were confidence building and discipline - the physical training/skills were just the vehicle to get the other benefits.
These days I realise against a decent MMA fighter or ground fighter (if they want to take it there) my Taekwondo skills probably won't cut the mustard, but the way I hold myself makes it less likely I'll get in a fight.
Manny
Senior Master
Manny,
Back then we carried a S&W Model 64 .38 revolver with six rounds and no speed loaders. And when we had to go on the inside of the jail the weapons were stored on the outside. We didn't even have Mace or O.C. when I first started.
Nowadays our belts look like something out of a Batman movie.
Wow... I must think that was many-many years ago. Thanks God you could solve the problem that day, and yes sh..... hapens quite ofthen.
Tha situation you lived that day is a very scary one, and something we must to remeber is no matter how large or small is our asailant, there is no small enemy, and even a small person on drugs or a drenalin rush can fight pretty nasty. I've seen 5' 6" 140 punds guys thet needs more than 3 or 4 huge cops to put it under custody.
Any how I think your post is a good one and it have good valid points to check.
Manny
Why does is have to be either? For one, he answered the question a few posts back: fitness and lifestyle benefits, respect taught to kids, and family time (paraphrasing his response).
So far as I know, the original reason that the Shaolin monk began training in the arts was because they were out of shape and needed something to do to change that. Whether or not that is accuarte, that is the reason that many people take up a martial art.
Also, while they may be fighting skills, most people involved in a modern MA practice some extension of Gendai Budo, which is geared towards personal development through the practice of fighting skills and through competition.
Kendo is gendai budo. Its stated purpose is as follows:
[SIZE=-1]The purpose of practicing Kendo is:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To mold the mind and body,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To cultivate a vigorous spirit,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And through correct and rigid training,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To associate with others with sincerity,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This will make one be able: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To love his/her country and society,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To contribute to the development of culture[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.[/SIZE]
So while you are learning to sword fight, the purpose is clearly not killing people. Iaido also has a similar self development element to it, inspite of the fact that you are practicing what would be lethal attacks if used against another person with a shinken.
Taekwondo is not meant to be a pure sport or a pure self defense art, but a 'do' art.
Daniel
tinker1
Green Belt
I'm a biker. Not a 1%er - but I do hang around with those guys from time to time. I go into "biker bars" all the time - for the music and the fun.
I also grew up in a small town in the country, and have spent a lot of time in "country bars", also for the music and the fun.
Yes I've had a few altercations. I'm really not sure I want to get into war stories. I will say though that I've had a gun pulled on me.. and another guy threatened me with his knife.. neither of those situations ended well for the other guy.
I've also dealt with angry drunks - that's probably the most common issue. Most of those I've talked my way out from a physical confrontation, but a few have gotten physical. Drunks are one thing, the situation might appear to be an easy one to deal with, but most of the time they have their friends with them, so you are dealing with maybe 3 or 4 people.
I've also encountered a couple of trained fighters - most notable was a guy that was a golden glove boxer. Another was a Judo guy. Both were tough customers.
My background is mostly in TKD, but I also have training in Kenpo and Hapkido. All those styles and techniques have morphed into just what I do... It's hard for me to say, ok this bit is TKD and that bit is Kenpo.
What I wanted to say is that my training has served me well. I've never been seriously hurt and have always came out still standing.
Once had a man attempt to mug me. He brandished a knife and demanded my wallet. I delivered a low side kick to his knee. He went down and I quickly went on my way.
Aside from that and one or two scuffles, I have made use of tongue fu to handle things. Works a lot better and it doesn't burden our law enforcement with needless paperwork.
Daniel
Aside from that and one or two scuffles, I have made use of tongue fu to handle things. Works a lot better and it doesn't burden our law enforcement with needless paperwork.
Daniel
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I guess I worded that poorly. I was interested in Puunui's personal experiences, as I thought what he was referring to was more general, true though it might be. Also, in response to andyjeffries, that wasn't meant to be a challenge. I am new here. Although Puunui seems experienced, I don't know his background.
As to your example of Kendo, is it possible that is just an example of a disguise? Sort of "... let's not look like mean bad guys training to kill people. Let's look like spiritually good people who choose sword practice as our vehicle to enlightenment?" Then anyone can practice swordsmanship as a means to being a better spiritual person, never a fighter. In your example of the sword, it allowed swordsmen to continue to practice, and teach others, without sounding too old school, and in violation of the meiji edicts. Also, in the East, there is also a propensity for giving a spiritual aspect to everything possible. It then has greater value.
I don't mean anything I said to belittle anyone's choice of spirituality. I just prefer mine from the Bible. You or anyone else is free to choose differently. We all are free to make our own choices for our own reasons.
Getting back to the direction this thread has taken, rather than as it started, I understand there is physical work in martial arts. You can get in much better shape. You can gain self confidence in yourself in threatening situations. Discipline is necessary to really learn martial arts. Self discipline as well as submitting to authority is a good life lesson. Family time? If all or a lot of the family buys into the training, and its is a part of their family life, nothing wrong with that. I just didn't know it was a reason for studying martial arts. I never heard of family boxing schools.
And regardless of anyone's stated reason, or a teacher's sales technique, martial arts are by defination, war arts. That is, fighting arts. I don't think anyone past their first visit to a dojo can miss that.
Finally, I am not sure I disagree profoundly with anyone's position in this thread. It's all sort of splitting hairs to me. Martial arts are just that. In some cases, they have become sporterized; but they are still martial arts. Are there other benefits besides defense, such as self confidence, disciple, and others already mentioned? Of course. So why are we contesting? Jeesh, maybe I should delete my answer here? :shrug: :asian:
Dear Kong Soo Do,
First of all, thank you for your service as a law enforcement officer. Secondly, thank you for sharing this real life story and how you used martial arts to successfully resolve it. I like the story because it raises key issues, which can be genericized and used as a tool for applying self defense and/or reactions to emergencies.
1. Surprise - Things rarely happen expectedly. The poster's partner, a trained deputy, was taken to the ground and in a fight for his life with a prisoner. While this is not going to be the experience of most of us, I have been in situations were things got out of control quickly or witnessed a criminal assault that came on without warning. This can leave even the best of us momentarily dazed. Training and self confidence can push a person out of the role of victim or helpless bystander to that of survivor or rescuer.
2. Reaction to assualt and surroundings - The assaulted deputy did his best to defend himself, but was hampered by the room size, his coat, etc. However, the deputy's partner realized what was happening and moved quickly to rescue his friend. While we should always be aware of our surroundings, we can't always be in the safest of places. Whether it is on a bus or the subway; perhaps at a sporting event? We can be in a big crowd were something suddenly boils over, bringing us into a fray that we don't want...
3. If this fails, try that - The assaulted officer, although strong and powerful, could not stop the attacker. He persisted with heavy blows that failed to subdue the prisoner. The officer may have been more severally injured or killed, because he was stuck in one kind of tactical response. The rescuing officer, however, tried one move that failed but had the frame of mind to try another tactic - an arm lock. This approach prevailed. Here is lesson that is crucial to anyone in a self defense or emergency: If you persist in something that doesn't work, it could cost your life or that of another. Have multiple tools in your belt, so to speak.
4. "This situation doesn't apply to me..." Negative. As I have shown, it does apply to all of us. Thanks to the poster for it. I got me thinking a lot. In particular, I've been thinking about self defense in tight quarters. Often we train on a large mat with lots of room to manuever.
First of all, thank you for your service as a law enforcement officer. Secondly, thank you for sharing this real life story and how you used martial arts to successfully resolve it. I like the story because it raises key issues, which can be genericized and used as a tool for applying self defense and/or reactions to emergencies.
1. Surprise - Things rarely happen expectedly. The poster's partner, a trained deputy, was taken to the ground and in a fight for his life with a prisoner. While this is not going to be the experience of most of us, I have been in situations were things got out of control quickly or witnessed a criminal assault that came on without warning. This can leave even the best of us momentarily dazed. Training and self confidence can push a person out of the role of victim or helpless bystander to that of survivor or rescuer.
2. Reaction to assualt and surroundings - The assaulted deputy did his best to defend himself, but was hampered by the room size, his coat, etc. However, the deputy's partner realized what was happening and moved quickly to rescue his friend. While we should always be aware of our surroundings, we can't always be in the safest of places. Whether it is on a bus or the subway; perhaps at a sporting event? We can be in a big crowd were something suddenly boils over, bringing us into a fray that we don't want...
3. If this fails, try that - The assaulted officer, although strong and powerful, could not stop the attacker. He persisted with heavy blows that failed to subdue the prisoner. The officer may have been more severally injured or killed, because he was stuck in one kind of tactical response. The rescuing officer, however, tried one move that failed but had the frame of mind to try another tactic - an arm lock. This approach prevailed. Here is lesson that is crucial to anyone in a self defense or emergency: If you persist in something that doesn't work, it could cost your life or that of another. Have multiple tools in your belt, so to speak.
4. "This situation doesn't apply to me..." Negative. As I have shown, it does apply to all of us. Thanks to the poster for it. I got me thinking a lot. In particular, I've been thinking about self defense in tight quarters. Often we train on a large mat with lots of room to manuever.
TAGBmark
White Belt
I've been quite lucky in my experience, living in a large Town in England I generally don't have to worry about people pulling a gun out on me.
However there is still very much a gang culture throughout the United Kingdom, i think Hollywood has mis-intentionally given the world an image of England etc being a predominantely quiet place.
Unfortunately on my way home from work one night (I usually don't clock off until about midnight) i was jumped by two wannabee 'gangsters' threatening to 'cut me' and demanding i hand over my wallet and cellphone.
At first non of my training didn't kick in because A) I'd been at work for 16 hours straight and wasn't exactly with the world, and B) Couldn't believe that these two teenage lads who were so much smaller than me had decided to take me on! (I stand at 6"5 and roughly 16 & 1/2 stone [230lbs])
I punched the lead lad's throat and stamped on his mates knee cap and then legged it! :CTF:
Luckily i was quite close to home, but it's an experience I'll always remember and will hopefully never have to re-live.
I don't think that being a MA makes you invincible, however it definately gives you a higher % chance in a situation.
However there is still very much a gang culture throughout the United Kingdom, i think Hollywood has mis-intentionally given the world an image of England etc being a predominantely quiet place.
Unfortunately on my way home from work one night (I usually don't clock off until about midnight) i was jumped by two wannabee 'gangsters' threatening to 'cut me' and demanding i hand over my wallet and cellphone.
At first non of my training didn't kick in because A) I'd been at work for 16 hours straight and wasn't exactly with the world, and B) Couldn't believe that these two teenage lads who were so much smaller than me had decided to take me on! (I stand at 6"5 and roughly 16 & 1/2 stone [230lbs])
I punched the lead lad's throat and stamped on his mates knee cap and then legged it! :CTF:
Luckily i was quite close to home, but it's an experience I'll always remember and will hopefully never have to re-live.
I don't think that being a MA makes you invincible, however it definately gives you a higher % chance in a situation.
OP
OP
Funny how far we've come along since then. Nowadays we have body armor, Glock 21 .45ACP, 2 spare ammo mags, Taser, O.C. spray, ASP, cuffs, MTM ventilator, 911 tool, glove pouch....and sore backs!
OP
OP
Two great take home points for all of us to consider in this example;
- The attack will probably take place at the most advantageous time to the attacker and the least advantageous to us. We may be tired, sick, distracted etc yet still be forced into a situation.
- Some of these predators come in packs which backs them bold. And even being physically big isn't always a deterent.
- Obstacles, such as the poster listed above, can be overcome and we can successfully defend ourselves even when starting at a disadvantage. The poster above had a winning mindset. Rather than ignore the situation, or worry about this youth getting a leg cramp later in life when the wind blew, or wishing it away....he took positive action and survived.
OP
OP
But the question is, could he have accomplished the same thing without causing permanent injury? I would think you of all people would appreciate that, given your strong statements about excessive force in your earlier posts.
You mention training, but could you be a little more specific? For example, what is the primary focus of your training? Self defense, sport, recreation, exercise, something else? How much is self defense training is incorporated into the work outs? Are you focusing in on adrenal dump, anti wolfing techniques, gun and knife defense, etc.? Any tournament training stuff? I noticed your name, and had a look at the TAGB webpage, and noticed that there does seem a strong focus on tournament fighting, specifically competition under the WTF rules.
Did your partner have any self defense training, perhaps with you, or was his experience limited to only BJJ? How much training in BJJ did your partner have?
Also, what if it was you who was taken to the ground, instead of your partner, and there was no one to assist you. What would you have done in the same situation? What are some of the strategies that your Kong Soo Do self defense style employ when taken to the ground by a bigger stronger opponent?
OP
OP
That isn't something that either of us can answer since neither of us were there. From the gentlemans statement, one of the assailants threatened to cut him if he didn't hand over his wallet. We also need to take into account his location which is the U.K. Edged weapon altercations are substantially higher than in many other countries. I've seen video during edged weapon training of people standing at a bus stop and 'gang bangers' walking past and just cutting people for no reason. It is a serious problem in the U.K.
Given that type of environment, given the fact that there were two bad guys, given the fact that the threat of deadly force was issued in the commission of a crime...I'd say he handled it well.
As I've stated numerous times, I'm all for using the least amount of force necessary to get the job done. HOWEVER, I also realize that minimal force isn't necessarily minimum force. Particularly in a lethal force situation. At that point, and to be truthful and blunt with you, I could really care less if the attacker gets arthritis in his old age and hurts when it gets cold. I'm not going to frame my defense on his level of comfort, either then or in the future. I'm going to do what is necessary to end the attack, as swiftly as possible and in the most appropriate way possible.
At the time of this altercation he had trained only with Royce Gracie and a local sport BJJ club. After this altercation he trained with me. Years later he was attacked by a local semi-professional MMA fighter. He got sucker punched, but never went down and continued to defend himself until back up arrived. This was years before we had Tasers and such.
Rule number one is obvious; regain your feet as soon as possible. However, how that is accomplished depends on the situation. Being on the ground with a subject such as the one in my OP would put me at a deadly force level because of the Officer/subject factors; he was physically bigger than me, outweighed my by about 50lbs, we were in a confined area of the jail with a potential of around 35 felons that could have assisted if they wished. At that level, the eyes, ears, throat and groin are viable targets. I'm not going to waste time going for a triangle, arm bar, kamora etc as that only ties me up on the ground longer. It is difficult for the bad guy to continue to fight if he can't see or breath.
Additionally, though not available in any great way in a sparse jail cell, improvised weapons need to be considered; a lamp, a rock or hard object that can be picked up, any object already in hand like car keys etc.
Also the enviroment itself needs to be considered. For example, had I been the victim and on ground with this EDP, any type of balance displacement that would put him into the concrete wall or the stainless steel toliet or edge of the metal bunk that's bolted to the wall. If one finds themself on the ground between a couple of parked cars then the cars themselves can be utilized to slam the attacker into one of them. Or a wall. Or furniture. How about a handful of dirt or sand in the face? Anything to gain an advantage.
Just some thoughts.
But if you remember, my situation wasn't a lethal force scenario. No weapon was mentioned, although there were several other homeless in the direct vicinity, including his girlfriend and whoever else. It was under these circumstances that my teacher, GM JI Han Jae, who many credit for founding Hapkido, got upset at the fact that I may have broken that guy's wrist. Would you have broken his wrist, kicked his knee out, poked his eye or crushed his windpipe if you were me? Or would you have done something less violent?
Back then, GM Ji did teach a lot of lethal methods, no doubt many of which probably got used by the members of the ROK Presidential Protective Forces, who he taught for 18 years. So GM Ji is no stranger to the types of scenarios that you have in your head when you think about self defense or protection of others. But I notice that many of those techniques have been changed to less injurious and less lethal methods, because he may have realized that so many of his American or other non-Korean students fail to take heed of his philosophy against unnecessary injury to others, and ultimately to yourself. There are people out there who really want to hurt others, no matter what the situation or the long term ramifications. It is a different way of looking at what you do, no matter what you think they did to you.
In Hapkido, we have ways of attacking someone's eyes but not causing permanent injury. For example, instead of pushing directly on the cornea like Steven Seagal did in his movies, you can accomplish the same effect by instead digging your thumbs into the outside edge of the eyes, hooking your thumbs on the lip on the inside of the eye socket. Much lower probability of permanent injury and yet I will tell you that once you start pressing on that particular pressure point, your assailant will stop whatever he is doing and will be thinking only about his eyes. This is just one example of how to defend yourself without causing permanent injury.
OP
OP
Well, I'm not sure how I can put my comments about this without looking like I'm trying to hammer you...
- To begin with, your situational awareness was poor. You allowed two people to come right up behind you at an ATM while withdrawing a large sum of cash. That is problem number one.
- You state this man grabbed your elbow in a 'threatening manner' but never described why you felt threatened. For all I know, the guy was trying to get your attention for some reason, "hey buddy you dropped a $20". What was the actual threat?
- Your reaction was immediately to break his wrist (at least you claim that you suspect you broke or injured his wrist) and struck him in the throat. Be it the back of your hand or not, it is still a strike to the throat. And it was apparently of sufficient force to cause him to stumble back and then fall down.
- I asked you several times if you were in fear of your life. I don't believe you responded to those questions. I think if you struck him in the throat that you are at deadly force, whether you think so or not. So why was it necessary to strike him in the throat? Was his grab of your elbow sufficiently 'threatening' to you to put you in reasonable fear of your life?
- Once the man was down, you stated you attempted to kick him in the head with a roundhouse kick to knock him out. Once again, kicking someone in the head with enough force to knock them out is also enough force to cause great bodily harm and/or death. So again, that is a deadly force response. Now to be clear, the situation may very well have required the attempted use of deadly force to stop the threat. But you were never clear about what he was doing on the ground that made you feel it was necessary to kick him in the head. If he was intent on continuing his attack on you (if he was even attacking you to begin with), and had the ability (could get up and continue the attack) then you had the right to protect yourself. But your very nebulous account leaves quite a large gap for questions.
- Personally, based only on what you've provided, I think it is questionable that this account happened as you described. If it was somehow an 'attack' and you were indeed in danger then your instructors concern over his wrist, rather than your safety makes me sick. I could see him getting upset about you roundhousing the guy in the head on the ground 'just because' but not that you injured his wrist properly defending yourself from an elbow grab.
- Since I'm on a roll and probably pissing you off anyway (though that isn't my intention and I'm just trying to go by what little you've provided), the whole, "don't hurt the bad guy so that he doesn't get arthritis later in life and not like you when the weather gets cold" bit is maybe good for an episode of Kung Fu but as far as real life goes....nope.
