enough is enough

[Bill Mattocks]

I just googled robbery shootings and got some crime stats pages. They vary from year to year, but that's the average it seemed.

Works for me!

 

[MJS]

Yes, although of course, both sides will bring in 'experts'. Anybody can be sued for anything, but I do think you might be opening yourself up unnecessarily. Again, I'd consult an attorney before dispensing advice like that, but that's just me.

What advice am I dispensing? I think its pretty safe to say that any LEO or person in the law field, will tell you the same thing. How many times have we heard about people fighting back, and the cops say, "While the clerk was brave with what he did, he don't advise people to do that. Its best to comply and give the badguy what they want."

I don't think there is any way to 'know' what is going to happen. I think that you have to use your best judgment in any self-defense situation. I do think that an automatic assumption that you're about to be killed and that therefore you should respond with a maximum assault on the robber is perhaps not the best solution and is more likely to get you killed or seriously injured than complying.

As I always say, assess the situation. We, as MAists, should be able to control what we do to someone. If I'm faced with deadly force, then yes, I'll respond in a similar fashion. I'm no firearms expert, so I will have to assume the gun he's pointing at me is real, one that isn't fake but looks real, one that is a bb gun, but a real one. No different than a cop shooting someone who points what looks like a gun at them.

Let me share 2 stories with you. The first happened in Cheshire, Ct. Home invasion. The husband was beaten and tied up. His wife and 2 daughters, the same, with 2 of them being sexually assaulted. Of course, this was after the wife took one of the badguys to the bank to withdraw a large sum of cash. They then proceeded to light the house on fire. End result: the 3 females died, and the husband was able to escape. Badguys were caught and the trial is expected to start soon.

Here you have someone who gives cash, yet look at the end result. 3 people dead.

In another incident, a male broke into a home. Female homeowner and a female friend. The guy stated to both of them that he was going to have to kill them....because he was afraid they'd ID him. He shot one in the house, but she survived. The other, he took in a car, to another location, where he shot and killed her. Yet they gave him whatever he wanted.

I'm sorry Bill, but I'm not going to gamble with my life.

The purpose of self-defense is to defend the self. Anytime an altercation becomes physical, the risk of someone (you or the aggressor) being injured or dying goes up a great deal. I therefore believe that anything that can be done to terminate a confrontation short of violence is a good thing - in terms of self defense.

I agree and have said that before, many times. But, understand this...I am not going to play games. If I can talk, then fine, but if I can't I'm not going to start running away, like a chicken, so he can come after me. How long do we play these games? No, once that person is within arms reach of me, he is no longer interested in talking. Why? Because if he was, he'd do it from a distance, not 2in. away from my face.

I also understand that some people put their self-image, or the negative idea of themselves as a compliant victim in front of their own safety. That's their choice, but it's not, strictly speaking, self-defense at that point. I don't know what you'd call it. Ego-defense? Self-image-defense? I-dont-want-to-be-victimized defense?

Again, has nothing to do with me being cocky or macho. Cocky or macho would mean me walking around thinking I'm the ****, and can take anyone. A good example of macho, would be Johnny or the bad Sensei from the Karate Kid.

Being confident and sure of myself....nothing wrong with that. When you're confident of yourself, you stand your ground, you're not intimidated and you're firm. I gave an example of that from a personal incident that happened to me. I mentioned it in the other thread...where I was walking my dog, and the car drove by, made eye contact with the passenger, he got out and asked if I had a problem. I didn't cower, I didn't apologize...I said "No" and stood there. Why should I apologize or cower? I did nothing wrong. If thats what you consider macho then I don't know what to tell you. We obviously have differences of opinion on that, and thats fine. Just dont make me out to be someone I'm not.

Perhaps not that hard and fast. I don't believe in absolutes in self-defense. Response is a continuum, from ignoring the guy and walking away, to knocking him down and jumping on his chest until it caves in. If I truly believe I could retain my wallet and not put myself at undue risk by poking the guy's running lights out, perhaps I'd do that. It really does depend on the situation.

In general terms, though: If I believe that the alternative to being robbed is serious injury or death, then I will surrender my valuables. If I believe that I am likely to be injured or killed despite handing over my valuables, I will fight. My goal is one thing and one thing only - my survival. I'll do whatever it takes to increase the odds of that happening as I see it at the time.

One of my old teachers used to have a saying: "You wait too long, you wait wrong." My best chance for defense, is when he's distracted by my supposed compliance. In other words, he's got a knife on me. He asks for my wallet. As I'm handing it to him, his attention is on that wallet, at the moment, so of course, he knows I have to move to get it for him, so that is the time to act.

Now, lets say I hand it over, pray that he leaves but he doesnt and instead tells me to get in the car with him, so we can drive somewhere else. Thats the time to act?

One thing we can agree on Bill, and thats that we don't know what'll happen. Where we disagree is when we act. Thats cool though man, to each his own. I'm not holding any grudge against you Bill. You're fully entitled to do what you want, as its you in the situation, so of course, you should do whats best for you, at the time.

I guess its like the pre-emptive strike. We could wait until the punch is being fired and then move, or....we could move as soon as we see him draw back. That is when I'm going to move. In this case, I'm going to make a move as soon as the threat is there. Personally, I feel I stand a better chance of survival.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I was getting off the bus, on O'Connell street, on my way back from Tyrone in 1995. I had a rucksack on and was wearing a woolen sweater. I must've looked like a tourist. Some little git walked in front of me with his hand in his pocket and told me that he had a syringe in his pocket and he'd stick me with it if I did't give him my wallet. I stuck my face in his and told him to F off as I pushed him aside. My thoughts were, that if i did get stuck, it woudn't kill me (then at least), so I'd just pound the little bastard.

I don't know what I would do if I was held up with a knife/gun/ other deadly weapon on the street. I do know that fear would make me react one way or another. What I do know is that if someone comes into my house, all bets are off. If I get the chance, i'll use them for target practise and won't lose a wink of sleep because of their demise.

 

[MJS]

I was getting off the bus, on O'Connell street, on my way back from Tyrone in 1995. I had a rucksack on and was wearing a woolen sweater. I must've looked like a tourist. Some little git walked in front of me with his hand in his pocket and told me that he had a syringe in his pocket and he'd stick me with it if I did't give him my wallet. I stuck my face in his and told him to F off as I pushed him aside. My thoughts were, that if i did get stuck, it woudn't kill me (then at least), so I'd just pound the little bastard.

Funny how quick the punks back down when they see that we're not as easily intimidated by their actions.

I don't know what I would do if I was held up with a knife/gun/ other deadly weapon on the street. I do know that fear would make me react one way or another. What I do know is that if someone comes into my house, all bets are off. If I get the chance, i'll use them for target practise and won't lose a wink of sleep because of their demise.

Amen!!!

 

[just2kicku]

Personally, I choose to fight back. I think if everyone chose to fight back it would be a different story for the bad guy. I'm not willing to survive and give a description that will be filed somewhere between "not that important" and "got better things to do".

This mode for survival has made us sheep. I don't want to die or get hurt, but I'm also not willing to cower either. I have been cut and I was stuck with a knife, I'm still here by the grace of God. When do we stand up and say "no more"!

When do we put our fears aside, our fears of getting hurt, or being sued and just say **** it, I'm fighting back. If everyone does it, then what, they're gonna arrest everybody? I don't think so, and if they do, then so what. Where's that mentality?

We do not live in a utopia where everyone gets along. Yes, there are different reactions to different situations. I'm not saying every situation is the same. Gun pointed at me from 6-8 feet away, more compliance than not. Gun stuck right in my face, I'm going for it.

 

[Manny]

For me, my walltet (and the things inside it) does represent nothing to me compared to return to my home and family in one piece. For me loosing my TV and sound system and some jewelery in home burglary does represent nothing if the life of wife, daugthers or mine is on danger.

However, this is why I avoid bad places, this is why always be in yellow condition and this is why my home is like a prission (full in bars).

If iI fail to recognize a terrible situasion and don't have time to prepare myself, for example a guy pointing at me with a knife or gun and demanding money I will give it to him. My life is worthy my wallet not.

Manny

 

[MBuzzy]

You know, Manny has a really good point here. The first step toward not being a victim is not making yourself a victim. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations, don't behave like an easy target. AVOID the confrontation in the first place.

Now of course, there are many situations when that is impossible, then it is up to your judgement and your skills to guide you out of it.

 

[CoryKS]

You know, Manny has a really good point here. The first step toward not being a victim is not making yourself a victim. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations, don't behave like an easy target. AVOID the confrontation in the first place.

Now of course, there are many situations when that is impossible, then it is up to your judgement and your skills to guide you out of it.

Don't remember the exact quote, but Rory Miller described self defense as the art of getting yourself out of a situation you were too stupid to avoid in the first place.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

You know, Manny has a really good point here. The first step toward not being a victim is not making yourself a victim. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations, don't behave like an easy target. AVOID the confrontation in the first place.

Now of course, there are many situations when that is impossible, then it is up to your judgement and your skills to guide you out of it.

i concur:
avoid rather than check

check rather than hurt

hurt rather than maim

maim rather than kill
for all life is precious!

(i would avoid if i possibly could though!)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What advice am I dispensing? I think its pretty safe to say that any LEO or person in the law field, will tell you the same thing. How many times have we heard about people fighting back, and the cops say, "While the clerk was brave with what he did, he don't advise people to do that. Its best to comply and give the badguy what they want."

There is a difference between a lawyer on TV saying "You should do XYZ" and a lawyer you hire saying "You should do XYZ." Likewise, there is a difference when you as a paid instructor tell your students to do XYZ. Hey, I'm not telling you want to do, I'm suggesting you ask an attorney if he thinks that's a wise idea.

As I always say, assess the situation. We, as MAists, should be able to control what we do to someone. If I'm faced with deadly force, then yes, I'll respond in a similar fashion. I'm no firearms expert, so I will have to assume the gun he's pointing at me is real, one that isn't fake but looks real, one that is a bb gun, but a real one. No different than a cop shooting someone who points what looks like a gun at them.

Lots of fake guns have orange plastic tips on them. If someone points an obviously-fake gun at me, I'm going to know that it's fake and respond based on that.

I agree that if you can't tell, you have to assume it is real.

I also would say that in general, if someone points what appears to be a real gun at me and demands my wallet, I'm going to give him my wallet.

Let me share 2 stories with you. The first happened in Cheshire, Ct. Home invasion. The husband was beaten and tied up. His wife and 2 daughters, the same, with 2 of them being sexually assaulted. Of course, this was after the wife took one of the badguys to the bank to withdraw a large sum of cash. They then proceeded to light the house on fire. End result: the 3 females died, and the husband was able to escape. Badguys were caught and the trial is expected to start soon.

These are anecdotal stories. They do not apply to the majority of such situations. I have to base my real-life response on what real-life situations generally are.

Here you have someone who gives cash, yet look at the end result. 3 people dead.

Yes. There is no certainty that any armed confrontation is going to end without people being dead.

In another incident, a male broke into a home. Female homeowner and a female friend. The guy stated to both of them that he was going to have to kill them....because he was afraid they'd ID him. He shot one in the house, but she survived. The other, he took in a car, to another location, where he shot and killed her. Yet they gave him whatever he wanted.

Again, anecdotal. Will you quote the far more numerous stories of people who broke into houses, took what they wanted, and left? Well no, because that would not support your point. But that's more common, much more common.

I'm sorry Bill, but I'm not going to gamble with my life.

Yes, you are going to gamble with your life. And that's the point exactly.

I cannot control when I will be confronted by a criminal. That is utterly outside of my control. And the moment that confrontation occurs, I *am* gambling with my life, from that moment forward, no matter *what* I do.

But 'gamble' is a good choice of words. Gambling has odds. And while people win against odds all the time, normally they don't - or they would not be odds.

I cannot assume that a person confronting me is not going to kill me if I comply with them, nor can I assume that they will. The odds say that they will not, but I do not rely on just numbers - I am an intelligent person and I have to also rely on my instincts and understanding of the situation as it unfolds, including changing my response if the situation changes.

My goal is one and only one - to survive. I do not care what I have to do to make that happen. Walk away, fight back, scream, hand over my wallet, whatever. If I think at that moment that response a, b, or c, is going to save my life, that's the one I am going to pick.

I do know this much - anytime an armed confrontation turns into a physical struggle, the odds that someone will get dead go up exponentially. That someone might be the bad guy, but it also might be me. So before I go down that road, I'm going to try to be sure that engaging in physical self-defense is the best bet I have.

There are no guarantees and no promises. I could surrender my wallet and get shot, or I could fight back and get shot. All I have is a changing set of odds and my ability to determine which is the best response for me at the time.

I agree and have said that before, many times. But, understand this...I am not going to play games. If I can talk, then fine, but if I can't I'm not going to start running away, like a chicken, so he can come after me.

I will run away like a chicken, flapping my wings and yelling "Help me, Colonel Sanders," if it is going to save my life. The odds that a random mugger is going to track me down to attack me a second time are so low, I think I can risk it.

My survival is far more important to me that looking like a chicken. If that's not important to you, I understand, but it's not properly 'self-defense', is it?

How long do we play these games? No, once that person is within arms reach of me, he is no longer interested in talking. Why? Because if he was, he'd do it from a distance, not 2in. away from my face.

How did that get into the discussion?

Again, has nothing to do with me being cocky or macho. Cocky or macho would mean me walking around thinking I'm the ****, and can take anyone. A good example of macho, would be Johnny or the bad Sensei from the Karate Kid.

But you're concerned with looking like a chicken?

Being confident and sure of myself....nothing wrong with that. When you're confident of yourself, you stand your ground, you're not intimidated and you're firm. I gave an example of that from a personal incident that happened to me. I mentioned it in the other thread...where I was walking my dog, and the car drove by, made eye contact with the passenger, he got out and asked if I had a problem. I didn't cower, I didn't apologize...I said "No" and stood there. Why should I apologize or cower? I did nothing wrong. If thats what you consider macho then I don't know what to tell you. We obviously have differences of opinion on that, and thats fine. Just dont make me out to be someone I'm not.

I have no comment to offer.

One of my old teachers used to have a saying: "You wait too long, you wait wrong." My best chance for defense, is when he's distracted by my supposed compliance. In other words, he's got a knife on me. He asks for my wallet. As I'm handing it to him, his attention is on that wallet, at the moment, so of course, he knows I have to move to get it for him, so that is the time to act.

That is correct if you're in a fight. I'm not in a fight until I decide that handing over my wallet is not going to keep me from being killed. I think we have different standards. In your world, if someone pulls a knife on you and demands your wallet, there *will* be a fight, and you're just looking for the best opening. Fine, no problem. I'm looking to survive. Fighting is my last option.

Now, lets say I hand it over, pray that he leaves but he doesnt and instead tells me to get in the car with him, so we can drive somewhere else. Thats the time to act?

It would be for me. Your mileage may vary.

One thing we can agree on Bill, and thats that we don't know what'll happen. Where we disagree is when we act. Thats cool though man, to each his own. I'm not holding any grudge against you Bill. You're fully entitled to do what you want, as its you in the situation, so of course, you should do whats best for you, at the time.

I would grant anyone the same option.

I guess its like the pre-emptive strike. We could wait until the punch is being fired and then move, or....we could move as soon as we see him draw back. That is when I'm going to move. In this case, I'm going to make a move as soon as the threat is there. Personally, I feel I stand a better chance of survival.

I just don't think it is always so cut and dried.

 

[MJS]

However, this is why I avoid bad places, this is why always be in yellow condition and this is why my home is like a prission (full in bars).

Manny

Couldn't agree more! Its funny how simple things can really make the difference between avoiding something before it happens, and getting jammed up. I avoid bars/clubs, but if I do go, I make sure that at least someone in the group is someone that I trust to have my back if something happens. Look around the parking lot as you're walking to your car, have keys in hand, take note of anything suspicious, lock your doors when you get in, leave some space between you and the car in front of you when you're at a light. The list can go on and on. IMO, a little common sense, go a very long way.

 

[MJS]

There is a difference between a lawyer on TV saying "You should do XYZ" and a lawyer you hire saying "You should do XYZ." Likewise, there is a difference when you as a paid instructor tell your students to do XYZ. Hey, I'm not telling you want to do, I'm suggesting you ask an attorney if he thinks that's a wise idea.

If I'm in class, teaching a technique, I teach it by the book. I make sure the student understands it and can do it. I also don't sugar coat anything. I have, many times, said to a student, "This is how you do this technique. Now, if you want to supercharge it a bit, you can do this!" They clearly know the difference between what I taught by the book, and what I taught afterwards. Same thing with a lawyer. I'd be shocked if you took a poll of 10 LEOs or lawyers, and more than half said to fight back. They're all going to say the same thing...comply.

Lots of fake guns have orange plastic tips on them. If someone points an obviously-fake gun at me, I'm going to know that it's fake and respond based on that.

I agree that if you can't tell, you have to assume it is real.

And that tip can easily be painted over. For all I know, it could be a real gun thats not even loaded. Who knows.

I also would say that in general, if someone points what appears to be a real gun at me and demands my wallet, I'm going to give him my wallet.

And thats your choice. That is what YOU wish to do, and as I said, thats fine. To each his own. I, as well as a few others, feel otherwise.

These are anecdotal stories. They do not apply to the majority of such situations. I have to base my real-life response on what real-life situations generally are.

Those are 2 very real incidents that happened here in CT. I don't want to assume that if someone comes into my house, that nothing bad will happen to me. No, I'm sorry, you come into my home, uninvited, at an early hour, I can assure you that person will wish they had not.

Yes. There is no certainty that any armed confrontation is going to end without people being dead.

And hopefully it'll be the other guy.

Again, anecdotal. Will you quote the far more numerous stories of people who broke into houses, took what they wanted, and left? Well no, because that would not support your point. But that's more common, much more common.

Well, lets see, in those cases Bill, chances are nobody was home. I take burglary calls all the time at work. You really think that if someone breaks in, thinking the house is empty and its not, that the bg will always run off? Maybe he will, or maybe he'll attack me. Either way, I'm not taking the chance and assuming that I'll be unharmed.

Yes, you are going to gamble with your life. And that's the point exactly.


I cannot control when I will be confronted by a criminal. That is utterly outside of my control. And the moment that confrontation occurs, I *am* gambling with my life, from that moment forward, no matter *what* I do.

But 'gamble' is a good choice of words. Gambling has odds. And while people win against odds all the time, normally they don't - or they would not be odds.

I cannot assume that a person confronting me is not going to kill me if I comply with them, nor can I assume that they will. The odds say that they will not, but I do not rely on just numbers - I am an intelligent person and I have to also rely on my instincts and understanding of the situation as it unfolds, including changing my response if the situation changes.

My goal is one and only one - to survive. I do not care what I have to do to make that happen. Walk away, fight back, scream, hand over my wallet, whatever. If I think at that moment that response a, b, or c, is going to save my life, that's the one I am going to pick.

I do know this much - anytime an armed confrontation turns into a physical struggle, the odds that someone will get dead go up exponentially. That someone might be the bad guy, but it also might be me. So before I go down that road, I'm going to try to be sure that engaging in physical self-defense is the best bet I have.

There are no guarantees and no promises. I could surrender my wallet and get shot, or I could fight back and get shot. All I have is a changing set of odds and my ability to determine which is the best response for me at the time.

Sorry Bill, but in your case, you're trying to assume and predict the future outcome. You're assuming and hoping that if I comply, that'll end it. What happens when it doesn't? As I said before, the only difference between you and I, is that we choose to act at different times. You'd rather wait and see what happens, I'd rather start fighting right away. Either way Bill, I could end up shafted. I'd rather die fighting, and die and not have attempt anything.

I will run away like a chicken, flapping my wings and yelling "Help me, Colonel Sanders," if it is going to save my life. The odds that a random mugger is going to track me down to attack me a second time are so low, I think I can risk it.

My survival is far more important to me that looking like a chicken. If that's not important to you, I understand, but it's not properly 'self-defense', is it?

Typical reply...running away. Sure, its a valid thing, but what if it doesnt work? Got a back up plan? I'm not leaving my wife, my kids, or anyone else behind, especially if they're not capable of running. You seem to read what YOU want to read Bill. If someone thinks I'm a *****, thats fine. But here is the difference between you and I. You seem to give the impression that you'll always run, apologize, cower, what ever. Me, I'll be confident and sure of myself. If that guy drove past you and asked you what the **** you were looking at, you'd probably start saying you're sorry for looking at him. **** him. I'll look where I want, and I did nothing wrong. He started that confrontation with me, and I simply said I had no problem, but gave the impression that I was not going to buy into his intimidation, and ya know what...it worked!

As I've said, which you've missed oh how many times....I'll always TRY to talk first, but if it dont work, then it dont work.

How did that get into the discussion?

You can't figure it out? Let me explain. This is what happens, when the talking no longer works...the guy will start moving in on you. I'll always have my hands up, in a nondefensive posture. If he wants to talk to me, he can do it from a distance. Once he gets to my hands, he's invaded my personal space, and I'm responding to that. You want to talk...fine, do it from a distance, not in my face.

But you're concerned with looking like a chicken?

Dude, can you read? Or are you too busy mixing up my words to suit your needs? I've walked away many times, the other guy calling me a *****. But, notice, HE was the one who walked away, not me. I again, was confident in my posture, my attitude and was not giving him the satisfaction of making me shake in my boots. He can call me names all day long, I dont care. Its how I react to him that will set the tone. Trust me when I say, I've had guys bigger and badded than I, tell me they were going to kill me, and I just stood there. Punks in the prison, thats all Bill, just punks. If I cower and run like a chicken, they won. They still think, in their dumbass mind, that they won, but they didn't, because their words meant nothing more than an idle threat.

You say that you were a LEO Bill. Didn't you speak to people with a firm, confident tone, when you wanted them to do something, or did you run and cower? I've had guys refuse to let me pat them down. I'd reply to them, "We can do this the easy way or the hard way, but either way, I'm going to pat you down. I can do it myself or bring others in to help me, so instead of acting like this, let me do my job." And that worked!

I have no comment to offer.

I'm shocked.

That is correct if you're in a fight. I'm not in a fight until I decide that handing over my wallet is not going to keep me from being killed. I think we have different standards. In your world, if someone pulls a knife on you and demands your wallet, there *will* be a fight, and you're just looking for the best opening. Fine, no problem. I'm looking to survive. Fighting is my last option.

I'm in the situation from the moment it starts. Once the guy comes up to me and makes a demand, the game is on. I'm also looking to survive and will do what it takes. If a weapon is involved, again, this confirms the fact that its already game on. In your world, you want to roll the dice and hope that you end it by giving your cash. In mine, when I roll, I'm looking at the worse case. I dont want to bet that he wont shoot me or cut me.

It would be for me. Your mileage may vary.

Sorry, I dont want it to get to that point.

I would grant anyone the same option.

So you say, although your words suggest otherwise.

I just don't think it is always so cut and dried.

So in this case, you'd rather wait until the punch is heading towards you?

 

[yorkshirelad]

I don't want to assume that if someone comes into my house, that nothing bad will happen to me. No, I'm sorry, you come into my home, uninvited, at an early hour, I can assure you that person will wish they had not.

quote]
My sentiments exactly. This whole mindset is not about machismo, it's about survival. Does anyone here want to put the control of their life in the hands of a violent criminal? I don't think so. I don't know about you but this is one of the reasons I train, so that I have a choice to fight or not fight. I do some form of conditioning everyday and I consider myself physically fit, so if I do happen to get myself shot or stabbed, I have more of a chance at survival than the average out of shape Joe.

Just take look at the BTK killer, he broke into people's houses and told them that everything would be alright if they just did what he told them to do. Apparently everyone just went with the flow. They went to their deaths like sheep to the slaughter. The only way any of those families had a chance was for someone to rush him, regardless of the survival probability.

I carry a dummy wallet everywhere I go. It contains a sample credit card that I got as junk mail, a few business cards from local businesses and a couple of dollar bills. It's small nd thin so it doesn't fill too much pocket space. If I ever get held up, the assailant gets the dummy wallet. They don't ever get my real wallet because I don't want the bastard knowing where I live. If they want more, then there's a problem. As I said before, I don't know howw I'll react, maybe I'll run, maybe I'll kick the guy's head in or maybe I'll get myself maimed or killed. I know that I'll do my damndest to survive and if that means biting the guy's throat out, so be it.

As a side note, a good book on this subject is 'The gift of fear' by Gavin de Becker. The book offers some interesting studies on confict recognition and avoidance.

 

[Danjo]

i concur:
avoid rather than check

check rather than hurt

hurt rather than maim

maim rather than kill
for all life is precious!

(i would avoid if i possibly could though!)

Thank you Master Po.:asian:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If I'm in class, teaching a technique, I teach it by the book. I make sure the student understands it and can do it. I also don't sugar coat anything. I have, many times, said to a student, "This is how you do this technique. Now, if you want to supercharge it a bit, you can do this!" They clearly know the difference between what I taught by the book, and what I taught afterwards. Same thing with a lawyer. I'd be shocked if you took a poll of 10 LEOs or lawyers, and more than half said to fight back. They're all going to say the same thing...comply.

That's all I've said. An attorney might suggest you are opening yourself up to a liability lawsuit by telling them to always resist. However, of course you should do as you wish.

And that tip can easily be painted over. For all I know, it could be a real gun thats not even loaded. Who knows.

I think I said that. If I can't determine if the gun is real, I'll have to assume it is.

And thats your choice. That is what YOU wish to do, and as I said, thats fine. To each his own. I, as well as a few others, feel otherwise.

That's fine with me.

Those are 2 very real incidents that happened here in CT. I don't want to assume that if someone comes into my house, that nothing bad will happen to me. No, I'm sorry, you come into my home, uninvited, at an early hour, I can assure you that person will wish they had not.

I think I've said before, but I will repeat in this thread, that I take a home invasion as a very different circumstance than a public mugging. My response would be different as well. However, you continue to insist that I *assume* nothing bad will happen to me. I do not. I base my decisions on actual statistics and my own judgment. I *assume* nothing - including that I do not *assume* something bad WILL happen to me.

And hopefully it'll be the other guy.

Whichever it is, the chances are much higher that someone will be injured or killed once battle is enjoined.

Well, lets see, in those cases Bill, chances are nobody was home. I take burglary calls all the time at work. You really think that if someone breaks in, thinking the house is empty and its not, that the bg will always run off? Maybe he will, or maybe he'll attack me. Either way, I'm not taking the chance and assuming that I'll be unharmed.

Your statement is incorrect. FBI crime statistics clearly show that most home invasions do not end in injury, just as most muggings do not end in homicide. We are both free to harbor our own opinions about how best to respond, but criminal statistics are what they are.

Sorry Bill, but in your case, you're trying to assume and predict the future outcome. You're assuming and hoping that if I comply, that'll end it. What happens when it doesn't? As I said before, the only difference between you and I, is that we choose to act at different times. You'd rather wait and see what happens, I'd rather start fighting right away. Either way Bill, I could end up shafted. I'd rather die fighting, and die and not have attempt anything.

Math and probability is on my side, and it's easy to demonstrate. If you don't want to see that, it's your issue.

But your last statement is the controlling one for you. You would rather fight and die than not do anything - even if doing nothing would not result in you being injured. I get that. I call it macho ********, and I'm sorry if that fashes you, but it's the term I use. I don't 'get it' because I have no macho in me.

Typical reply...running away. Sure, its a valid thing, but what if it doesnt work?

Plan B, fighting.

Got a back up plan?

Plan B, fighting.

I'm not leaving my wife, my kids, or anyone else behind, especially if they're not capable of running.

I said nothing about leaving anyone behind. If I have people with me whom I wish to defend, my responses will be different. I believe I have said there are no set rules, just guidelines. And plans change based on changing circumstances.

You seem to read what YOU want to read Bill. If someone thinks I'm a *****, thats fine. But here is the difference between you and I. You seem to give the impression that you'll always run, apologize, cower, what ever.

If that works, you bet. I know that makes me less of a man in your eyes, and I really do not care at all. I only care about my own life (and yes, of course, the lives of those around me, but when I'm solo, then just me).

Me, I'll be confident and sure of myself. If that guy drove past you and asked you what the **** you were looking at, you'd probably start saying you're sorry for looking at him. **** him.

You bet. I did it the other night. I came back from the dojo and climbed my apartment stairs and there was some local badass talking to his girlfriend and he saw me in my gi bottoms and tee-shirt and he blocked my way up the stairs. I looked down, eased to one side, and said "Excuse me, buddy," and climbed past him, shouldering him only to the extent that I needed to in order to get past him. I didn't puff up, lock gazes, challenge him, or make any hostile move.

I heard him laughing at me as I walked past. He 'won' the show in front of his girlfriend. Yay him. I didn't have to knock his teeth out or risk getting mine knocked out. I see no reason to have done anything differently.

I'll look where I want, and I did nothing wrong. He started that confrontation with me, and I simply said I had no problem, but gave the impression that I was not going to buy into his intimidation, and ya know what...it worked!

I risked less by responding as I did. I say that's a better way to do it, but I support your right to do whatever you wish.

As I've said, which you've missed oh how many times....I'll always TRY to talk first, but if it dont work, then it dont work.

Talk, yes, but not give up your wallet. You've said that, too.

You can't figure it out? Let me explain. This is what happens, when the talking no longer works...the guy will start moving in on you. I'll always have my hands up, in a nondefensive posture. If he wants to talk to me, he can do it from a distance. Once he gets to my hands, he's invaded my personal space, and I'm responding to that. You want to talk...fine, do it from a distance, not in my face.

If I can avoid all of that nonsense by dropping my wallet on the ground and walking away, I think that is a better way to protect my own life.

Dude, can you read? Or are you too busy mixing up my words to suit your needs? I've walked away many times, the other guy calling me a *****. But, notice, HE was the one who walked away, not me. I again, was confident in my posture, my attitude and was not giving him the satisfaction of making me shake in my boots. He can call me names all day long, I dont care. Its how I react to him that will set the tone. Trust me when I say, I've had guys bigger and badded than I, tell me they were going to kill me, and I just stood there. Punks in the prison, thats all Bill, just punks. If I cower and run like a chicken, they won. They still think, in their dumbass mind, that they won, but they didn't, because their words meant nothing more than an idle threat.

No. If I cower and run like a coward (there's that word again, I'm a 'coward'), I win because I live. Self-defense is about defending my life, not my ego.

You say that you were a LEO Bill.

Please let me know if you're accusing me of lying.

Didn't you speak to people with a firm, confident tone, when you wanted them to do something, or did you run and cower?

In law enforcement, I had a job to do which required me to subordinate my own safety in favor of protecting the public. As I am no longer in law enforcement, I have an obligation to save my own life first.

I've had guys refuse to let me pat them down. I'd reply to them, "We can do this the easy way or the hard way, but either way, I'm going to pat you down. I can do it myself or bring others in to help me, so instead of acting like this, let me do my job." And that worked!

I treated people who did not wish to be handcuffed in the exact same way. Our rule was "Ask 'em, tell 'em, take 'em." I repeat that law enforcement personnel have a different set of priorities and responsibilities than civilians do.

I'm in the situation from the moment it starts. Once the guy comes up to me and makes a demand, the game is on. I'm also looking to survive and will do what it takes.

Actually, you have stated the opposite. If the math proves that running away or complying is more likely to result in your survival, you will still reject it - you just said as much. You are not in it to survive, you are in it to survive and protect your ego and self-image.

If a weapon is involved, again, this confirms the fact that its already game on. In your world, you want to roll the dice and hope that you end it by giving your cash. In mine, when I roll, I'm looking at the worse case. I dont want to bet that he wont shoot me or cut me.

If you go to Vegas and use your own logic, you will lose consistantly. But that's what happens. People go to Vegas and lose consistantly. Most of them don't believe the odds. If they did, they would not gamble.

So in this case, you'd rather wait until the punch is heading towards you?

I would hope I would respond before the punch is thrown. Once I believe it is going to be thrown would be a good time to attack, I think. But every situation is different.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

Thank you Master Po.:asian:

thought you would get a kicker on that one!
LOL!!

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I've been following this thread with interest, but I've hesitated to post before this because the comments back and forth have forced me to examine my own mindset and instinctive reactions. I think I've achieved some mental clarity, so here is my take on things:

1. Men typically attack unknown women on the street for 2 reasons: to take their belongings, or to rape/kill them. I don't know the stats on this, but it seems to me that the easiest way to mug a woman is to snatch her purse. Very difficult to guard against and prevent. So...if a man approaches me, brandishing a weapon, and wants my purse, should I assume that is all he wants? It would have been easier if he just ran past and snatched. Or is he testing my willingness to comply? If I comply, am I sending him a signal that I might comply with other demands? At this point, I can give him my purse, and hope he goes away, or I can refuse to comply. The refusal could take the form of simply saying no, or of backing up and screaming, or of taking his gun away and kicking his *** into the ground (as a beginner in MA, I'm not sure I could accomplish this last one). But I cannot assume that compliance will protect me, because his motivation may be VERY different from what motivates an attack on a male victim.

2. In this scenario, if the attacker grabs me or demands that I leave with him, then I will fight back with every single ounce of strength and skill I possess. I don't care of he has a gun, a knife, or a flamethrower. I will throw elbows, knees, bite, punch him in the throat, and never give up until I have pounded him into a bloody pulp on the ground. I won't be careful not to kill him. I will overreact, in a big way. At this stage in my MA, I don't have the skill to control my attack, or the mental clarity while under attack to judge the impact of my techniques. I will give him everything I have and let the jury decide if I went too far.

3. If someone comes into my home, I will shoot him dead.

I'm really glad I put some thought into this. Having made the decision before hand may save some time.

Jen

 

[elder999]

3. If someone comes into my home, I will shoot him dead.

Me too.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I've been following this thread with interest, but I've hesitated to post before this because the comments back and forth have forced me to examine my own mindset and instinctive reactions. I think I've achieved some mental clarity, so here is my take on things:

1. Men typically attack unknown women on the street for 2 reasons: to take their belongings, or to rape/kill them. I don't know the stats on this, but it seems to me that the easiest way to mug a woman is to snatch her purse. Very difficult to guard against and prevent. So...if a man approaches me, brandishing a weapon, and wants my purse, should I assume that is all he wants? It would have been easier if he just ran past and snatched. Or is he testing my willingness to comply? If I comply, am I sending him a signal that I might comply with other demands? At this point, I can give him my purse, and hope he goes away, or I can refuse to comply. The refusal could take the form of simply saying no, or of backing up and screaming, or of taking his gun away and kicking his *** into the ground (as a beginner in MA, I'm not sure I could accomplish this last one). But I cannot assume that compliance will protect me, because his motivation may be VERY different from what motivates an attack on a male victim.

2. In this scenario, if the attacker grabs me or demands that I leave with him, then I will fight back with every single ounce of strength and skill I possess. I don't care of he has a gun, a knife, or a flamethrower. I will throw elbows, knees, bite, punch him in the throat, and never give up until I have pounded him into a bloody pulp on the ground. I won't be careful not to kill him. I will overreact, in a big way. At this stage in my MA, I don't have the skill to control my attack, or the mental clarity while under attack to judge the impact of my techniques. I will give him everything I have and let the jury decide if I went too far.

3. If someone comes into my home, I will shoot him dead.

I'm really glad I put some thought into this. Having made the decision before hand may save some time.

Jen

A great post among many!! My thanks isn't working, so don't think I'm snubbing anyone. My wife has been messing around with the cookies and I think that might have something to do with it. I know very little about computers. The only cookies I know of arwe the chocolate chip kind.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

A great post among many!! My thanks isn't working, so don't think I'm snubbing anyone. My wife has been messing around with the cookies and I think that might have something to do with it. I know very little about computers. The only cookies I know of arwe the chocolate chip kind.

I will consider myself thanked.