Snobs

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Kirk

He's been told quite a few times. I haven't complained about it
to my instructor, but my instructor (has limited assistants) is
often on his own when teaching, he can't see it all, all the time.
He did witness it before, and told the guy, "watch what you're
dishing out, what comes around goes around". One lady, about
60 or 65 is there for the fitness of it all. She admits to not being
able to take as much as "you young folks". I saw her at least 5
times on the same day, tell this guy "now I'm an old woman,
PLEASE go easy on me". He doesn't. I hate the idea of going to
my instructor with "this tiny guy is over doing it", but I guess I
will. I can only take so much, and he's really starting to tick me
off.

Get off of your A** and do something. Be responsible. Everyone is trying to do the civilized thing! Let's negotiate ... Let's show him the error of his way...

What if while we are all sitting around talking and negotiating, this inconsiderate, non-responsive, uncaring dirt bag severely injures or kills the little old lady? Maybe you would feel better if he severely injures you, instead? 12 pounds of pressure to snap a joint. You can't repair joints... You're stuck with it, or costly surgical replacement, that never works as good as a real joint. Bionics are better than when the show came out, but they still aren't there.

If you don't care then sit there and take it... Otherwise deal with it. That is part of the responsibility of being a Martial Artist, Yellow Belt or Tenth Degree Black Belt. If something is wrong and you can make it right, and don't... How much better are you than anyone else? If it's not part of your paradigm, as a Martial Artist, to make the world better and right wrongs, then go take up tennis.

Dan

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
He's been told quite a few times. I haven't complained about it to my instructor, but my instructor (has limited assistants) is often on his own when teaching, he can't see it all, all the time.

WEll, Kirk, if it were my studio, I would get upset at YOU for not telling me sooner. I would want to know if someone is pressing anyone too far much less one of my "bill payer" students that is just there for the physical workout or just plain fun!! Let me know and let me decide how to handle my student!!

I know you must feel like a tattle tale but that is what I would expect out of you if I were your instructor. So, by all means inform your instructor as to what you whitness and let him handle it his way. You have a responsibility to your instructor and studio.

Just my thoughts.....
:asian:

Dan and I don't want to have to come down there and defend our poor little ole lady unless we have to! :rofl: :asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Dan and I don't want to have to come down there and defend our poor little ole lady unless we have to! :rofl: :asian:

Amen Brother!!!!!

Dan

 

[Seig]

from Salt Lake City just doesn't have quite the same ring to it...

 

[tonbo]

Don't make fun of me like that!!! I'll start takin' it personal, Seig!!

I ain't old, and I ain't a lady (wrong gender, sorry!!)....

....and the Salt Lake City part, well.....can't do much about that right now......

:rofl:

Peace--

 

[Goldendragon7]

tsk tsk tsk...... the little old lady was in San Antonio......... lol Kirk is the one who is having the problem ....... not Mu tonbo hee hee

 

[SHADOW]

HEY KIRK,LET ME START BY SAYING THE LITTLE BELT SNOB YOU SPEAK OF IS WEAK AND KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT KENPO (THE ART,PHILOSOPHY,PRINCIPLES CONCEPTS ETC!!!HOW DO I KNOW THIS WELL I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I ALSO ATTEND THE SCHOOL YOU SPEAK OF.HE'S ALWAYS THE FIRST TO TRY TO TEACH A CONCEPT OR PRINCIPLE HES MIMICED FROM MYSELF OR ONE OF THE OTHER INSTRUCTORS WHEN EITHER WE ARENT AROUND OR HE THINKS WE ARENT PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT HES DOING.HE IN NO WAY IS AN INSTRUCTOR AND KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT INSTRUCTING.SO AS AN INSTRUCTOR AND ONE WHO HATES TO SEE THE SYSTEM THAT WE TRAIN SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND AND NOT WATER DOWN IT'S TEACHINGS AND PRINCIPLES.I'LL LET YOU IN ON A LITTLE SECRET. IT'S AN OLD RULE THAT AS A YOUNG MAN YOUR PARENTS PROBABLY INSTILLED IN YOU IT GOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS"IT A PERSON HITS YOU HIT THEM BACK AND HIT THEM HARDER. NOW THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED BAD SPORTSMANSHIP BECAUSE IM NOT SAYING KNOCK HIM OUT COLD OR KNUCKLE UP WITH HIM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SCHOOL,BUT REMEMBER WHEN WE WORK TECHNIQUE LINES OR CIRCLES YOULL GET YOUR TURN SO PUT A LITTLE MORE INTO YOUR POWER PRINCIPLES WE TRY SO HARD TO INSTILL INTO YOU GUYS.ONE OF TWO THINGS WILL HAPPEN HE'LL FINALLY WAKE UP THINKING IM NOT THE MAN I THINK I AM OR HE'LL QUIT EITHER WAY THOSE OF YOU THAT ARE TEAM PLAYERS AND ARE IN IT TO BETTER THE ART AND NOT BULLY YOUR WAY THROUGH THE ART WIN. TRUST ME KIRK I THE OTHER INSTRUCTORS AND I NOTICE WHAT GOES ON AT ALL TIMES IN THAT SCHOOL AND UNFORTUNATELY HES NOT THE ONLY ONE IN THERE. KENPO BROTHER SHADOW.

 

[Goldendragon7]

See Kirk,

Big Brother is watching!!

 

[SHADOW]

HEY DRAGON DONT MENTION IT REMEMBER WE ARE ALL TRYING TO REACH THE SAME GOAL!!!! AND I HOPE IT INVOLVES ALL OF US REACHING IT TOGETHER AS NOT ONLY A KENPO BROTHERHOOD, BUT ALSO A BROTHERHOOD OF MARTIAL ARTIST.

 

[Turner]

A few years ago in a Shorinji Kempo class a 2nd Dan from a different branch would often show up to practice with us and was thinking about switching to our branch. While most of the people I've trained with in joint manipulation use manipulation to get you into position, this guy would use brute force to fold you how he wanted you. One day he was paired up with an older gentleman and slammed a wrist-lock on him taking the wrist beyond the 'safe' limit. As he crossed out he commented "Wow, you've got flexible wrists." It was a serious lack of control on the part of a Nidan, but the problem was he didn't know it. We tried to tell him, but he just wouldn't listen. We told the instructor and he might have talked to him but nothing ever came of it. Perhaps the Nidan was one of those belt snobs because the rest of us were only white belts. Sadly, there are some things that can get my blood worked up and this was one of them. I made sure that I was his training partner and I constantly stuck it to him. There were no easy days. I gave him a taste of what he had been giving to everyone since the day he started Kempo. At first he loved the level of intensity but eventually he had enough and went back to his old branch to stay. Aside from the instructor, I don't think anyone was sad to see him go. We worked the wrist lock almost every day and it seemed that everyday he would take it too far. A wrist lock, in those days, wasn't enough to get me to feel pain and he would often try to get me to 'feel it' to the point that it was starting to crack. You wonder about those types... are they too slow to realize that just because someone doesn't react as they expect that they can go further safely? I don't care how high of a pain threshold you have, if you twist a wrist to a certain point it is going to break. Like the guy that pushes the jaw instead of punching it... you can still do damage without exerting sharp force. Snobs just don't understand. Some can be taught nicely, some have to be shown.

 

[Seig]

1.) Shadow, please turn the caps lock off. It is considered shouting and rude.
2.) The only easy day, was yesterday.

 

[meni]

Originally posted by Kirk

These are the type of snobs I've run into so far in my kenpo
training:


1. The Belt Snob
Anyone in your school not like training with someone of a lower
rank? I'm not talking black training with yellow, I'm talking purple
thinking he's too good to workout with orange.

2. The Size Snob
I don't know about your schools, but there's a couple small guys
in my school that feel they have something to prove. They wail
with a lot less control and a lot more intensity when working
techniques. It's almost like they WANT to hurt a bigger guy, so
they go back and tell their buddies about it. One little guy in
my school wails on a 60-65 year old woman, because she's
bigger than he is! She begs him not to, yet HE'S A SNOB! When
I've worked with this individual, he's cracked me in the mouth
when working FLOW DRILLS! I felt like kickin' his little a$$, but
he's a higher rank than me, and also a belt snob. He was HIGHLY
ticked that our instructor told him to work with me.

2. The "I know better than you" Snob
Instructor shows us all how to do a tech for the first time, all at
the same time ... this particular snob interprets what was said
differently than others, yet refuses to ask for clarification, and
demands that all do the tech HIS/HER way. This is a common
practice among belt snobs. One example is when we were
told, "Hit your targets. You don't want to practice hitting someone
in the chest, when you're supposed to hit them in the chin. If
you practice that way, then you'll perform it that way. Now, this
doesn't mean hurt each other! This means make contact with the
area you're supposed to hit". To me, this means if I'm
supposed to hit you with a straight punch to the jaw, then my
knuckles should TOUCH your jaw. One snob felt that it meant
to press your knuckles to the jaw, and then violently push your
jaw back 2 feet. The aforementioned belt and size snob is also
an "I know better than you" snob, and is the one doing this.


If a snob takes on one of the three traits mentioned above,
they're easy to blow off or ignore. But the one little bastard
that has chosen to encompass all 3 (IMO) is REALLY getting
on my nerves. I'm nursing a sore elbow tonight because HE
felt he had something to prove when we were working a
Glancing Salute variation. I've accidentally hurt guys at the
school, and they've accidentally hurt me .. we all blow it off ...
but I'm tired of this scrawny monkey with an attitude going off
on me!

I outweigh the guy by like 180 pounds, and he's 2 belts above
me. The little bastard doesn't have enough skill (yet) to be a
snob! I'm half tempted to pound the heck out him!!! If you're
sensing a hostile attitude from ... GO WITH IT, you're right! Am I
wrong to feel this way?

Can a snob, snob when nobody is around?
The biggest problem I encounter with the snob type is they affect everybody and specially the lower belts whom gets discourage and leave

I my opinion you have to educate him but first I will approach the senior instructor!

 

[GouRonin]

If he wants to pound on little old ladies then step in and take her place. if he doesn't like it then step in and take her place anyway. here is where pecking order needs to be established. Rank or not.

 

[Goldendragon7]

 

[Seig]

the pounding order?

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Seig

the pounding order?

Put me in for a pound.

Dan

 

[GouRonin]

Last I remembered, "Kenpo" meant "Fist Law". Some people only understand the way of the fist.

There is a great movie called "Suicide Kings" with Dennis Leary in it. There is a pivotal scene where he's trying to explain nicely to a guy why it's not right that he should sexually and physically abuse his own daughter and he tells him to stop it. When he's done the guy looks at him and tells Leary that if he's done talking to send his daughter back in when he leaves.

Resigned to the fact that his effort did not work and that this man will continue, he beats him half to death with a toaster and then tells him if he finds out he touched her again he'd be back to finish the job.

Some people only understand one thing.

Step in between this guy and this old lady when you see him going off on her. You know it's going to happen and she's going to get hurt. It's your %$#@ing moral obligation and anyone who thinks otherwise is probably the same kind of person who let Kitty Genovese die in New York.

Jeezus. As much as I think martial arts are about fighting you'd think that all these people who spout off about it being about the betterment of people morally, would step in. But usually they are the ones shaking their heads and going, *tsk tsk*. Not everyone is in martial arts for the same reason. It took me a long time to accept that fact myself but I never forced my view on others which is what this turdburgler is doing.

Go over and take grandma's place. Then proceed to give this guy what he dishes out. If he lightens up. Go light. If he goes hard, go hard. But smile as you do it. Everytime you see him go after grandma you go after him. Make him cry like a baby and whine about it and if he doesn't like it tell him now he knows how grandma feels knowing he was coming after her.

In short. You ride that b*tch until you break him.
:asian:

 

[Scott Bonner]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Jeezus. As much as I think martial arts are about fighting you'd think that all these people who spout off about it being about the betterment of people morally, would step in. But usually they are the ones shaking their heads and going, *tsk tsk*.[/B]

As one of the poeple who actually -- *gasp* -- suggested that he start with a non-violent solution, I want to say that you are making a huge assumption. I have never lacked in willingness to take action when appropriate, and I'd be the last person to let someone be victimized when I can stop it. Stepping in is something I'm good at. Thou speakest out thine ****.

I've risked my *** to save strangers before; discipline includes acting violently when appropriate as well as acting non-violently when appropriate. (I learned that without martial arts, oddly enough.) That violence is _sometimes_, even _rarely_ appropriate doesn't make violence a good first choice every time someone pisses you off. That's just selfishness, in this case disguised as good works.

Selfishness and violence are more closely related than selfishness and non-violence. It's what sociopathology is all about.

If the guy were actually beating up the old lady, of course I would intervene. Everyone in the whole dam* school should intervene. But that's not exactly what was described, is it? The bad guy was pushing limits too far, not beating people down, or at least that's how I read it.

Playing cowboy is weakness, because being the tough guy is easier than actually making tough choices. It's harder to step back and find the best solution than to come in swinging.

 

[Klondike93]

There's nothing wrong with a non-violent approach, but it sounded to me like Kirk tried that and nothing happened.

Reading Turner's story was interesting. When this 2nd dan got as good as he gave, he left and went back to where he could rule the roost.

That's probably what's going to happen to this green belt. He has a mental problem with his size so he takes it out on those around him he can over power. If he really want's to learn he'll take the lumps he's about to recieve and learn and come back for more.

Kirk, do like the others say, give as hard as he gives or as light as he gives, but step in and bang with the little man. Your instructors have your back.


:asian:

 

[tonbo]

I would agree that violence is not justified when someone just pisses you off. However......

When you sign up for martial arts, you agree to a couple of things: a certain level of contact, an understanding that you *will* get hurt at some point and in some level, and that you will play by a certain set of rules. Same goes for anywhere else: when you walk into a restaurant, you tacitly agree to their accepted conduct "rules", otherwise they can refuse to serve you--and even have you thrown out.

In the case of a martial arts school, it seems that most places understand the "get as you give" rule: You want to give out hard contact, you had better be ready to get it back. Most schools also understand and promote the comfort level rule that if you ask someone to go lighter in contact, they should agree to that. Part of the reasoning behind that is school liability, part of it is just civility. Not everyone in the school is there to trade punches with the hard hitters--it ain't a bigger d**k club for everyone.

When you have someone pushing the limits of others in an unwelcome fashion, there are responsibilities put on a number of people: the person being "bullied", to tell the "bully" to stop; the instructor, to steer the "bully" toward the right course of action; the "bully's" classmates/peers to try to change his/her behavior; and finally, the "bully", to actually hear the warnings and change the offending behavior.

Different methods affect different people. Some people, you can ask nicely, and they will stop doing what is offensive. Most others need to be corrected a little more strongly. When I was a kid, if I didn't listen to my parents telling me not to do something, and I screwed up badly, I risked a spanking. Would you consider that "violence"? I didn't and still don't. I was corrected, nothing more. This is somewhat similar, in my opinion. I wouldn't advocate totally going to town on this guy, but like Gou said: become the guy's partner. If he goes light, go light; if he goes hard, go hard. Give him someone to work with, who he can't beat up on......but let him understand that if he is going to *cause* pain, he is going to need to be ready to *accept* it, as well.

This isn't street level violence, and it isn't a case of "turn the other cheek", either. It is, however, about showing someone the errors they are making when it affects others. Leave this guy unchecked, and he will continue to be a jerk; show him he isn't the big fish he thinks he is, and *maybe*, *maybe* he will think twice. At any rate, he will see that he can't push everyone around.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

And Seig, congrats on the Black Belt!! It looks good on ya....

Peace--