Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[JowGaWolf]

The long guard works at the very highest level of fighting, so I don't think I can say it's a weak technique.

It only works because those who are faced with it, do not move the guard. Long guard and staff have similar weaknesses. I have a staff you have a staff. I point my staff at you. What do you do?
1. Try to dance around the staff that is pointing at you
2. Knock the staff away by using your stuff.

If you do not address the long guard, then it will keep you away, but not because it is so great, but becaue you simply refuse to address it.

Sometimes the whole point of using the long guard is to provoke one of those responses, having a counter ready. Sometimes it's just to prevent the possibility of a simple direct attack, since the opponent has to deal with the guard first.

This is an easy fix. Strike the limbs. If a person uses a long guard, then I can easily and effectively strike that limb without me getting hit with a counter. This is where gloves truly become an issue as they offer protection against these types of strikes. While this can be done with gloves on, the damage will not be the same.

Shoes on and shoes off make a difference as well. For the opposite reason. Shoes on offers me protection as I strike, shoes off means I have to be more selective how I want my kick to land on that lead arm. But even with gloves on, I would still strike the guard. 3 things a guaranteed when striking a long guard

1. The strikes will wear down the user's arm
2. Strikes that land will cause the guard to be moved
3. Any movement of that long guard will force the person to re-establish the long guard that has been knocked out of place.

How the fighter returns his arm to the long guard depends on how the hand is struck but will be key to setting up entry points. Sometimes you want the long guard to be re-established so that you can take advantage of it. An established long guard is more dangers than one that is being established.

A person who uses their long guard for more than just a set-up or for more than keeping distance is the most dangerous, because the long guard "IS THE ATTACK" Think of it like an old fort. A spy comes into into the fort to unlock the gates at night for the attacking army. The attack didn't start with the army, it started with the spy unlocking the gate. Stop the attack by stopping the spy. In fighting remove the long guard to stop the attack or more accurately to change that method of attack.

Most of the high level fighters I've seen don't leave the long guard out all the time. They switch it up, sometimes just leaving it out for a bit after punching. That makes figuring out how to clear it out of the way trickier.

Correct. There's no set time for how long a long guard must stay out. I leave my out for most of the time because it forces a person to deal with it. They will either ignore it, try to go around it or move it. So, I'm able to reduce my opponent's response to 3 things that I know they will do. Out of the 3 things they will choose, they will stick with the one that they feel works best for them. It takes a lot of the guessing game out of what entry they are going to use. It also delays their attack which gives me an opportunity to do a quick study on them. and their movement. But that is just my fight strategy which works well with the long fist strikes I use.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you train long guard, you should also train head lock.

 

[marvin8]

If a person is shelling up against my strikes then I should take the opportunity to strike the shell.

A proven method is to lure the opponent to shell, then go around the shell (borrow force) and hit the openings (e.g., hook, uppercut, kick to groin, etc.).

If the want to extend there guard the I should take the opportunity to hit it.

Instead of hit their guard, one can hit their center and openings (borrow force).

Hitting or "wrapping" the long guard (force) from a distance is harder than striking a punch. Because, the long guard only has to be retracted, while the jab is extended and retracted.

In Nick Diaz vs Koji Oishi, Koji's strategy was to hit Nick's punches or guard first, while Nick punched Koji directly in the face and KOd him.

Note that Koji steps in, chases, fails to control Nick's lead hand and opens himself up for counters. Nick notices that and starts baiting Koji with the long guard and counters him.

In last night's Wang vs Leonardo, Wang Cong (Chinese MMAist) walks Leonardo (borrows force) into a right cross KO. Wang does not hit or grab the lead hand (force). However, she uses the jab to control Leonardo. Wang uses...

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

1. ward off
2. rollback
3. press/punch

https://imgur.com/N2oZl9S

 

[JowGaWolf]

In Nick Diaz vs Koji Oishi, Koji's strategy was to hit Nick's punches or guard first, while Nick punched Koji directly in the face and KOd him.

I didn't see what you are talking about. to me it looked as if he was trying to establish grappling.

 

[marvin8]

I didn't see what you are talking about. to me it looked as if he was trying to establish grappling.

No, he wasn't. Koji was trying to block, knock down or hit Nick's guard/punches, then punch in the GIF I posted. He was drilling that with his trainer before the fight. Joe Rogan commentated that fight. Here is what Rogan said starting at 6:23, but the voice is changed for copyright purposes. I couldn't find a better audio video.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, he wasn't. Koji was trying to block, knock down or hit Nick's guard/punches, then punch in the GIF I posted. He was drilling that with his trainer before the fight. Joe Rogan commentated that fight. Here is what Rogan said starting at 6:23, but the voice is changed for copyright purposes. I couldn't find a better audio video.

Thanks I'll have to take a look when I get to my computer.

 

[marvin8]

Thanks I'll have to take a look when I get to my computer.

Here Joe Rogan is commentating on the fight in his normal voice, Watch xny0 | Streamable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, he wasn't. Koji was trying to block, knock down or hit Nick's guard/punches, then punch in the GIF I posted. He was drilling that with his trainer before the fight. Joe Rogan commentated that fight. Here is what Rogan said starting at 6:23, but the voice is changed for copyright purposes. I couldn't find a better audio video.

I finally was able to listen to the video, The announcer was saying that his coach threw punches at him, and he would try to block the punches with his hands. He wasn't trying to hit Nick's guard. Here's a hung ga example of striking the guard

Choy li fut examples

I tried to find the one that used the knuckle to strike the guard. Those videos are going to be the hardest to find.

 

[marvin8]

I finally was able to listen to the video, The announcer was saying that his coach threw punches at him, and he would try to block the punches with his hands. He wasn't trying to hit Nick's guard.

You can see and Rogan also says, "He [Koji] tried to block the left punch with his punch. That's what he was practicing. If he continues this strategy, it's just a matter of time." Also, you can see Koji attempt (at least twice) to take outside lead foot dominance, clear the lead hand with his left and throw the right hand.

8 years later, Koji wins a ONE FC featherweight belt with a stark contrast in strategies. Koji does not clear the lead hand, block punches with punches or keep his guard as low. He uses other tactics, control and timing to set up his punches (e.g., 8 gates, 5 directions). Like Wang Cong, Koji walks his opponent into the right hand KO with similar timing. In the more recent Cong and Koji fights, can one say it would have been more effective had they struck or wrapped the lead hand first before punching?

Here's a hung ga example of striking the guard

Choy li fut examples

I tried to find the one that used the knuckle to strike the guard. Those videos are going to be the hardest to find.

Do you have any fights showing striking the guard effectively? Comparing the effectiveness of the above two strategies, control and timing can be/are delved into deeper with physics.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here Joe Rogan is commentating on the fight in his normal voice, Watch xny0 | Streamable.

yep. he was talking about defending punches and not attacking the guard.

He [Koji] tried to block the left punch with his punch.

This is not the same thing that I was referring to. Block a punch with a punch doesn't make sense to me. What I was talking about is attacking my opponent's limb while the hands are in guard position.

I'm trying to punch (strike) your limbs when you aren't punching. If I want to hurt your arm when you punch, then there are better techniques that will accomplish this better than trying to "punch a punch"

Koji does not clear the lead hand, block punches with punches or keep his guard as low. He uses other tactics, control and timing to set up his punches (e.g., 8 gates, 5 directions).

The lead hand guard was short. In other words, Koji's opponent kept his lead hand close to his body, which gives less time to deal with an incoming punch. When your opponent keeps his guard close to his body or his face then you punch through the guard. In that video there was no need to clear the lead hand as it did not stay extended.

This is the guard that both fighters were using. Both are what I consider to be close guards. Blue is using a standard close guard for striking: Left leg forward - Left arm forward. Right leg back - Right arm back. Red is literally in a "Walking stance." This is the stace we use when we walk or run: Left leg forward - Right arm forward. Right leg back - Left arm back.

Red keeps his "Walking stance" as blue initiates the attack.

Red deals with the incoming punch which is the right thing to do but is not in the correct stance to do it in. He would have been ok doing this if his Left hand was out in front instead of his right hand. Rear hand parry is done from the rear not from the front.

The other issue is a classic lesson of 1 then 2, and why we don't use it in defense.
Blue attacks 1 then 2
Red responds 1 then 2

Blue attacks 1 Red responds 1, Blue attacks 2 Red doesn't get to repond. This is a classic less where Red's response should have been 1 and 2. Addressing Blue's lead hand is not the problem.

Here's why we don't want want to be in a "walking stance" This would not have happened if Red had a mid or long guard with his left hand forward.

The other issue is that Red's Circular punch is not going to beat the linear punch when his response is "1 then 2" while in this stance.

Blue deals with the incoming lead hand, His block is on the outside of the lead hand which opens the punching lane.

Different angle Blue dealing with the lead hand jab. Blue throws counter punch at the same time he deals with the incoming punch. Blue lands a punch before Red finishes 1.

Do you have any fights showing striking the guard effectively? Comparing the effectiveness of the above two strategies, control and timing can be/are delved into deeper with physics.

I may have some sparring videos showing it. There used to be some professional fighting fights that showed this, but I wasn't able to find those videos that specifically talk about striking the guard.

.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you have any fights showing striking the guard effectively?

This is from a sparring class where I was training the Black Shirt how to use Jow Ga long fist techniques. Red Shirt is the instructor. These guys would spar harder than I wanted them do so the strikes are about as close to "fighting" as we got. Red has a reach disadvantage. He can either try to move around the lead hand or he can attack it. In Jow Ga we attack limbs which is why it's critical to have forearm conditioning.

This is what happened to black's guard after the strike.

 

[marvin8]

If I want to hurt your arm when you punch, then there are better techniques that will accomplish this better than trying to "punch a punch"

You misunderstood. Koji "tried to block the punch with his punch."

Red is literally in a "Walking stance." This is the stace we use when we walk or run: Left leg forward - Right arm forward. Right leg back - Left arm back.

View attachment 31539

Red keeps his "Walking stance" as blue initiates the attack.

View attachment 31540

Red deals with the incoming punch which is the right thing to do but is not in the correct stance to do it in...

Again,

8 years later, Koji wins a ONE FC featherweight belt with a stark contrast in strategies. Koji does not clear the lead hand, block punches with punches or keep his guard as low. He uses other tactics, control and timing to set up his punches (e.g., 8 gates, 5 directions). Like Wang Cong, Koji walks his opponent into the right hand KO with similar timing. In the more recent Cong and Koji fights, can one say it would have been more effective had they struck or wrapped the lead hand first before punching?

There are two strategies here...

1. Chase hands on first contact, then hit on second contact. Your Red uses force. Black moves back and can counter Red. Red has less control, late on his timing and does not KO Black.

2. Lure their center and attack (e.g., face) on first contact. Don't use force on the entry. Lure, change when the opponent is double weighted and intercept their movement without using force, then KO.

2 is more proven than 1. 1 has obvious problems as shown.

 

[marvin8]

This is from a sparring class where I was training the Black Shirt how to use Jow Ga long fist techniques. Red Shirt is the instructor. These guys would spar harder than I wanted them do so the strikes are about as close to "fighting" as we got. Red has a reach disadvantage. He can either try to move around the lead hand or he can attack it. In Jow Ga we attack limbs which is why it's critical to have forearm conditioning.
View attachment 31546

This is what happened to black's guard after the strike.
View attachment 31547

Right. But, black rolls back. Red is open and can be set up for a counter.

Again, Diaz uses long guard to bait Koji into chasing and in "a matter of time" KOs Koji.

 

[marvin8]

(No breakdown here, but you can spot numerous moments where Lomachenko leaves his punching hand out long enough to temporarily blind or manipulate his opponent).

A breakdown analysis of Loma.

Wing Chun equivalents...

Step Faint / Probing Jab: Man Sau (Asking Hand)

Peeling Guard: Lop Sao (Grabbing Hand)

Lead Hand Steering: Pak Sao / Man Sao / Huen Sao / Bong Sao

Circling Jab: Blindside / Outside Gate

Framing: Lan Sao

Angles: Seung Ma

 

[JowGaWolf]

You misunderstood. Koji "tried to block the punch with his punch."

I understood. That's something I wouldn't recommend.

Right. But, black rolls back. Red is open and can be set up for a counter.

This is true for that screen shot. It is also why 2 punches are thrown. He would have been safe from a counter had he thrown the second punch. Jow Ga creates openings that have to be covered.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you have any fights showing striking the guard effectively?

Why do you want to strike your opponent's guard? If your opponent is on guard, you can just grab his guarding arms to achieve the same goal.

Hook punch -> parry down -> wrist grab

is a logic step.

 

[marvin8]

Why do you want to strike your opponent's guard? If your opponent is on guard, you can just grab his guarding arms to achieve the same goal.

Hook punch -> parry down -> wrist grab

is a logic step.

As the opponent is in your "on guard" position, the logical step and what has been posted is that the opponent rolls back, moves his arm and/or baits to a counter.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why do you want to strike your opponent's guard? If your opponent is on guard, you can just grab his guarding arms to achieve the same goal.

This is fine if you are going to engage in grappling. But this is not an option if you don't want to engage in grappling. It would be suicide if your enemy is better at grappling than you. Striking limbs damages the tools that will be used for striking and grappling. Kicks to the legs = Striking the limbs. That same concept also applies to striking the guard.

Striking the limps can also be done from a safer distance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You misunderstood. Koji "tried to block the punch with his punch."

To use hook against jab is one of my favor strategies. The moment that my arm is on top of my opponent's arm, I'll have advantage. The moment that my arm is on top of my opponent's arm, I can reverse my arm and obtain an arm wrap.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is fine if you are going to engage in grappling. But this is not an option if you don't want to engage in grappling.

It depends on what you think your stronger skill is.

If you have more confidence in your grappling skill, you may think differently. If your opponent is a

- striker, you want to test whether you can use your grappling skill to deal with his striking skill.
- grappler, you want to test whether your grappling skill is better than his grappling skill.

If you have more confidence in your striking skill, you may think differently. If your opponent is a

- grappler, you want to test whether you can use your striking skill to deal with his grappling skill.
- striker, you want to test whether your striking skill is better than his striking skill.