Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[Tony Dismukes]

This to me these would be examples of "leaving the punch extended." TMA often have strikes that are done when the opponent can least resist it. It would be like saying that I can defend against a front kick while punching with my lead hand. If someone kicks under my punch, then there is nothing I can do to defend against that strike including tightening up my stomach and brace for impact. When I "ran into a punch" there was nothing I could have done to prevent getting hit by that fist. There are some things that once an action has been taken, there is nothing that one can do until your action is complete. Which is why step 1 + Step 2 is a better striking approach (when available) than doing step 1, then step 2. There are other examples of the extended punch. Unfortunately, not enough kung fu people out there with video of their fights showing the techniques they trained. Maybe in 5 more years, we'll start to see them?

(Omitted the videos in my quote because the forum limits number of video links in a comment)

These are good illustrations of some of the concepts I mentioned, such as using the sticky jab to clear a guard or momentarily blind the opponent.

I'll see if I can find other examples.
(Omitted the videos in my quote because the forum limits number of video links in a comment)

Cus D'Amato's body jab does look pretty similar to the JowGa version. I should note that in application he would not leave that extended the way he did in that clip with Ali. He just left it out for a moment to demonstrate the form of the technique.

Here's some more videos showing use of the extended arm (which can either be a more prolonged long guard or just leaving the arm out for a short while after throwing a punch):

(No breakdown here, but you can spot numerous moments where Lomachenko leaves his punching hand out long enough to temporarily blind or manipulate his opponent).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This to me these would be examples of "leaving the punch extended."

Is so funny that this thread can be looked at from 2 different angles.

- From one angle, your extended arm can be easily wrapped by your opponent.
- From another angle, with extended arm, you have better chance to wrap your opponent's arm.

IMO, your extended arm is a good bait to invite your opponent's arm contact. In other words, your strategy will be great if you are a wrestler, and your opponent is a pure striker.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It's possible that since karate kata weren't designed for back and forth fighting your hands shouldn't be snapping back to guard position after a punch

True. There is no back and forth, only forth.

they should be immediately doing something else- that retracting the punches are a non issue in the kata.

The Okinawan word for this is findi, changing hand. While retracting to a guard position is not going "forth," retracting a punch can serve to continue the attack, morphing into a backfist or a grab.

 

[Badhabits]

True. There is no back and forth, only forth.

The Okinawan word for this is findi, changing hand. While retracting to a guard position is not going "forth," retracting a punch can serve to continue the attack, morphing into a backfist or a grab.

This fits the katas perfectly. There is no returning to guard, or passive hand in kata. Always actively dominating the opponent. Plus your hands are close in so you're able to cut off an attack closer to the source. I'd still like to know exactly why we "freeze" in that snapshot of time in kata though, like Jowga asked. My personal feelings are it's a combination of
Emphasizing the focus at moment of impact or finishing the opponent.
Showing where a technique or combination of techniques end.
Just another opportunity to practice focus and structure at a basic level ( it's a starting point, you should also be shrinking the time you're in that moment of tension as you progress. Kata is just another tool to practice this )
Im also convinced the change hands concept has a major influence on why kihon and kata are practiced the way they are. You start developing the ability and coordination to do different things with both hands at the same time from day one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is so funny that this thread can be looked at from 2 different angles.

- From one angle, your extended arm can be easily wrapped by your opponent.
- From another angle, with extended arm, you have better chance to wrap your opponent's arm.

IMO, your extended arm is a good bait to invite your opponent's arm contact. In other words, your strategy will be great if you are a wrestler, and your opponent is a pure striker.

I agree.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Is so funny that this thread can be looked at from 2 different angles.

- From one angle, your extended arm can be easily wrapped by your opponent.
- From another angle, with extended arm, you have better chance to wrap your opponent's arm.

IMO, your extended arm is a good bait to invite your opponent's arm contact. In other words, your strategy will be great if you are a wrestler, and your opponent is a pure striker.

Everything has a counter.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Everything has a counter.

This is why not only one should train, technique, he should also train counter, counter to counter, and ...

One of my student's homework was to create this tree chart.

 

[marvin8]

This fits the katas perfectly. There is no returning to guard, or passive hand in kata. Always actively dominating the opponent. Plus your hands are close in so you're able to cut off an attack closer to the source. I'd still like to know exactly why we "freeze" in that snapshot of time in kata though, like Jowga asked. My personal feelings are it's a combination of Emphasizing the focus at moment of impact or finishing the opponent.

A reason to extend your arm is to control the space and your opponent's position, which is done in MMA and boxing.

https://imgur.com/sl7DnHs

 

[drop bear]

A reason to extend your arm is to control the space and your opponent's position, which is done in MMA and boxing.

https://imgur.com/sl7DnHs

Interestingly I have had people do that. And I found it quite off putting. Technically they should be at the disadvantage because their hands are out. But the frame they create makes counters a bit awkward.

I have come up with a thing. So if we go off that video. I take my left hand, go over his left and scoop inwards. Leaving a pathway open for my right cross.

Breaking his frame that way allows me to create a shield with my left hand like a bong sao. So high elbow.

I also can throw a reverse uppercut hammerfist with my bong Sao arm. For some hilarious results.

(It doesn't cripple people. But if it is enough to pop their head up. That is another pathway to the right cross.

 

[marvin8]

Interestingly I have had people do that. And I found it quite off putting. Technically they should be at the disadvantage because their hands are out. But the frame they create makes counters a bit awkward.

It depends how and when they extend their arm(s). Yes. If people just extend their arm and try to block every punch they may be at a disadvantage. Then, there are openings.

I have come up with a thing. So if we go off that video. I take my left hand, go over his left and scoop inwards. Leaving a pathway open for my right cross.

In that video, Cory is controlling the space, pushing his opponent to the back foot position and shuffling forward. That prevents his opponent from coming forward and throwing a right cross and gives Cory time to change positions and kick the opponent's leg. To throw the right cross, the opponent needs to shift his weight from the back foot to the front foot.

Breaking his frame that way allows me to create a shield with my left hand like a bong sao. So high elbow.

I also can throw a reverse uppercut hammerfist with my bong Sao arm. For some hilarious results.

(It doesn't cripple people. But if it is enough to pop their head up. That is another pathway to the right cross.

Yes. There is a correct way/time to extend your arm(s). Doing it the wrong way can get one countered.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Interestingly I have had people do that. And I found it quite off putting. Technically they should be at the disadvantage because their hands are out. But the frame they create makes counters a bit awkward.

I have come up with a thing. So if we go off that video. I take my left hand, go over his left and scoop inwards. Leaving a pathway open for my right cross.

Breaking his frame that way allows me to create a shield with my left hand like a bong sao. So high elbow.

I also can throw a reverse uppercut hammerfist with my bong Sao arm. For some hilarious results.

(It doesn't cripple people. But if it is enough to pop their head up. That is another pathway to the right cross.

Most people don't deal with the lead hand. I teach that one must always deal with the lead hand. A simple parry will move it. In Kow zga we attack limbs as well , so for me it's an opportunity to hit my opponent.

If a person is shelling up against my strikes then I should take the opportunity to strike the shell. If the want to extend there guard the I should take the opportunity to hit it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Most people don't deal with the lead hand. I teach that one must always deal with the lead hand. A simple parry will move it. In Kow zga we attack limbs as well , so for me it's an opportunity to hit my opponent.

If a person is shelling up against my strikes then I should take the opportunity to strike the shell. If the want to extend there guard the I should take the opportunity to hit it.

Yep, I hit what is there. If that’s the inside of your wrist, it won’t be fun.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Will the front kick be the best counter for the extended arm? The leg is longer than the arm.

- A uses rhino guard on B.
- B uses front kick on A (counter to rhino guard).
- A block B's kicking leg, and ... (counter to front kick).
- B ...

Fighting is so much fun. Not only you have to learn a technique, but you also have to learn the counter, counter to counter, and ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Will the front kick be the best counter for the extended arm? The leg is longer than the arm.

There are a lot of counter that can be done for this one.

Will the front kick be the best counter for the extended arm? The leg is longer than the arm.

- A uses rhino guard on B.
- B uses front kick on A (counter to rhino guard).
- A block B's kicking leg, and ... (counter to front kick).
- B ...

Fighting is so much fun. Not only you have to learn a technique, but you also have to learn the counter, counter to counter, and ...

What is your student kicking at so far out? lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

These are good illustrations of some of the concepts I mentioned, such as using the sticky jab to clear a guard or momentarily blind the opponent.

Cus D'Amato's body jab does look pretty similar to the JowGa version. I should note that in application he would not leave that extended the way he did in that clip with Ali. He just left it out for a moment to demonstrate the form of the technique.

Here's some more videos showing use of the extended arm (which can either be a more prolonged long guard or just leaving the arm out for a short while after throwing a punch):

(No breakdown here, but you can spot numerous moments where Lomachenko leaves his punching hand out long enough to temporarily blind or manipulate his opponent).

I haven't watched the videos yet, but I bet there are good examples of people committing a sin. That sin is allowing the long guard to stay in place. My bet is they just let that arm stay right in front as they try to get around it. The easiest way to deal with the long guard is to move it out of your way, but I'm pretty sure they didn't. If they got poked in the eye it's because they didn't move it. If they couldn't see because the long guard was in their face, then it's because they didn't move it.

That long guard is a sin, and once should treat it with the same kindness as the Spanish inquisition. I'm saying this as a person who uses the long guard. The long guard is a "Feeler" a lot of people say it is used to keep people at distance. I would consider that the weakest use. The only reason this works in sports is because of two things.
1. People aren't smart enough to move the long guard
2. People assume that "you are just trying to keep distance" and as result it's not dangerous.

Overcoming these two issues and the long guard will be one of the weakest techniques.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is your student kicking at so far out? lol

Can be 2 reasons:

- His opponent steps back and make the distance farther.
- He knew his leg would be caught (in training), so he won't kick out 100%.

This is the normal issue in training. When you repeat the same move over and over, your body won't put 100% effort into the technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. People aren't smart enough to move the long guard

To me, the long guard is to "bait" my opponent's arm contact.

When I use

- "double hooks", if my opponent moves his arms the same direction as I do, I will never be able to make that arm contact.
- "rhino guard" in front of my opponent's face, it's like "here is my arms, please use your arm to move my arms".

Ther are many advantages that you can wrap your opponent's arms.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I haven't watched the videos yet, but I bet there are good examples of people committing a sin. That sin is allowing the long guard to stay in place. My bet is they just let that arm stay right in front as they try to get around it. The easiest way to deal with the long guard is to move it out of your way, but I'm pretty sure they didn't. If they got poked in the eye it's because they didn't move it. If they couldn't see because the long guard was in their face, then it's because they didn't move it.

That long guard is a sin, and once should treat it with the same kindness as the Spanish inquisition. I'm saying this as a person who uses the long guard. The long guard is a "Feeler" a lot of people say it is used to keep people at distance. I would consider that the weakest use. The only reason this works in sports is because of two things.
1. People aren't smart enough to move the long guard
2. People assume that "you are just trying to keep distance" and as result it's not dangerous.

Overcoming these two issues and the long guard will be one of the weakest techniques.

The long guard works at the very highest level of fighting, so I don't think I can say it's a weak technique.

You are correct that it forces the opponent to deal with the guard, whether by moving it out of the way or attacking it directly or going around it or using it as a lever to control the opponent. That means the person using the long guard needs to know how to deal with all those possibilities.

Sometimes the whole point of using the long guard is to provoke one of those responses, having a counter ready. Sometimes it's just to prevent the possibility of a simple direct attack, since the opponent has to deal with the guard first.

Most of the high level fighters I've seen don't leave the long guard out all the time. They switch it up, sometimes just leaving it out for a bit after punching. That makes figuring out how to clear it out of the way trickier.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That makes figuring out how to clear it out of the way trickier.

A hook punch can be a good way to move a long guard. The issue is your opponent can move his arm in the opposite direction and achieve a perfect arm wrapping.

When 2 arms make contact, both persons can achieve arm wrapping.

If you are

- not a grappler, your arm wrapping will have no use to you.
- a grappler, your arm wrapping can change a striking game into a grappling game.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The long guard also has this advantage. Since your hand is so close to your opponent, if your opponent tries to punch you, you can just use a little force to punch on his shoulder to interrupt his power generation.

It's always better to fight in your opponent's territory than to fight in your own territory.

The long guard is the opposite of the "crazy monkey". I like offensive attitude. I don't like defensive attitude.